unJon Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Tusk was written by men, much like our own Bible et al. There's no guarantee that what's written therein actually corresponds to the God's/Gods' will. per Bakker the conceit in Earwa is precisely that the morality believed by the inhabitants is true. His analogy is what if the ancient Israel beliefs were in fact true. This is really saying that the Tusk is true. Also one quibble. The Tusk was written by the Inchoroi not men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Drizztos Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Also one quibble. The Tusk was written by the Inchoroi not men. That's news to me. Source? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francis Buck Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Bakker revealed it in an interview. The Tusk was created by the Inchoroi, where they collected all (or most) of the original human Kiunnat religious beliefs -- seemingly with a fair amount of accuracy -- but they added one detail: Nonmen are false, and should be killed for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Does the Tusk actually say anything about damnation? I don’t recall, and in any case, my guess is that the Hundred are not responsible for damnation, nor do they have any control over it. It might have even preceded them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 None of this changes the thought experiment. Assume fundamentalist Shrial beliefs are true and anyone living in that territory knows the rules or could easily read them and see what actions damn and what actions save. Is this not justice? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 It isn't, because the rules as understood by men and written down by men are not the actual rules. I would agree that if god came down from the mountain and said right away what is going on, cool beans. That didn't happen. Not every religion can be right at the same time. There is no localized belief power. Either fane is right and inri is wrong - everywhere - or inri is right and fane is wrong - everywhere. Or more likely no religion has all of it right, and everyone is hosed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Drizztos Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Bakker revealed it in an interview. The Tusk was created by the Inchoroi, where they collected all (or most) of the original human Kiunnat religious beliefs -- seemingly with a fair amount of accuracy -- but they added one detail: Nonmen are false, and should be killed for it. I see now. But that raises more questions: what else did Inchies tweak to suit their needs? The bit about the sorcerers comes to mind - those were a potential threat after all so it stands to reason that they'd take precautions. Point remains that it's unclear how the original human beliefs came to be, based on some prophet's glimpse of the Outside perhaps and his incomplete and biased interpretation of what he saw. Way I see it, belief and worship shape the Outside, giving rise to manifestations known as "Gods" - humanly comprehensible aspects of the creationary force referred to as "God". Said Gods then reward devotion by boons granted in life or salvation in the afterlife, which ensures them continued worship in turn. That explains why Yatwer is allegedly so powerful: she has millions of devoted worshipers, all fueling her otherworldly essence with their prayers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 It isn't, because the rules as understood by men and written down by men are not the actual rules. I would agree that if god came down from the mountain and said right away what is going on, cool beans. That didn't happen. Not every religion can be right at the same time. There is no localized belief power. Either fane is right and inri is wrong - everywhere - or inri is right and fane is wrong - everywhere. Or more likely no religion has all of it right, and everyone is hosed. I agree with this as different religions are inconsistent. ive been hypothetically assuming Tusk is true insofar as afterlife reward and punishment works.ETA: I think Bakker would fundamentally disagree with you first sentence. What comes across in the books is that it is anything but cool beans that the Hundred laid down these laws and seem to torture you forever if you break them. Justice isn't meaningful. It's just the stronger imposing their will on the weaker. Anyway that's my take on the books' morale message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 Except no one thinks the hundred laid down any laws. The hundred are the ones who will make your damnation suck a bit less. Some people think of that as saving them, but others - like psatma - know that it is just not suffering quite so much. There's a difference between knowing the entities of the Outside and knowing the rules of damnation. The former are pretty clear. The latter really not. And many devout followers seemed quite fine with how things were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 It is somebody’s justice. But you can't say that! It's objective morality - it's not like it's subjective and damn have I spent ages arguing it's subjective with some folk here. But so far it looks like no ones jumping on this phrasing of the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darzin Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I don't think the hundred really save you they just take your soul and use it the pleasantness of which varies depending on the god. The way to paradise is through the solitary God. It is known. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Except no one thinks the hundred laid down any laws. The hundred are the ones who will make your damnation suck a bit less. Some people think of that as saving them, but others - like psatma - know that it is just not suffering quite so much. There's a difference between knowing the entities of the Outside and knowing the rules of damnation. The former are pretty clear. The latter really not. And many devout followers seemed quite fine with how things were. the Shrial priests I'm sure do think the rules are clear. And they happen to be right (maybe). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalbear Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Of all the religions it's almost certain that Inri is the least correct due to meddling from the Consult. We already know of at least one major falsehood put in on there by someone else, and both Fanim priests and Psatma seem to agree that the hundred aren't part of any god at all - and they're probably more correct than anyone. Lots of people think that they're right. Elezarus thought that he wasn't going to be damned. Everyone who follows Kellhus thinks they're saved. Fanim think they're right. Psatma thinks she's right. From our perspective, however, the rules are muddled and very unclear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unJon Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 I guess I don't think we are disagreeing Kal. At least I agree with your above post. I have been (inarticulately) trying to make the point that it is still not necessarily cool beans even if the rules are clear up front. The rules in fact could make it clear that it's a totally shit deal humans are getting (think Inverse Fire from Inchoroi point of view). Agree from reader perspective that metaphysics unclear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 Is the idea that the Nonmen are ‘False Men’ a fabrication or merely something that the Eännans were’t aware of since they didn’t have much interaction with them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hello World Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 TSACast gone soundcloud, finally. Link is also updated in my signature. Speaking of Hearts and Moënghus (nice job btw, except for not talking about the following) I recently noticed this line about Cnaiür in the synopsis of TDTCB, If only he could kill Moënghus, he believes, his heart could be made whole. Which is more evidence that something significant happened to Cnaiür in the final scene with Moënghus. He’s coming back, or at least some iteration of him is. But this makes me wonder if getting captured by the Scylvendi and the subsequent escape was part of Moënghus’ plan all along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted January 25, 2015 Share Posted January 25, 2015 A thought occured to me the other day, but I've fogotten the name of Kellhus' shackled child - anyway, that crazy kid had the plan to kill uncle holy because it was the most mad thing he could think of. So does that mean inrithism is some (by the damnation machines measure) legit religion? It wouldn't be THAT mad, if it wasn't? Unless crazy kid did his math wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhom Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Inrilatus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Callan S. Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Heh, just noticed it's similarity to 'Unrelated' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry of the Lawn Posted January 26, 2015 Share Posted January 26, 2015 Do any of you guys have the full text of the Tusk? Bakker should probably put a PDF of it up on TPB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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