The CIA Brutally Tortured and Murdered Captives for No Reason: The Thread

[Shryke]

The American public at large has demonstrated that they really don't care about shit like this if they did we wouldn't have essentially given the powers that be a blank check after 9/11. We need to look in the mirror you can't hand someone a machine gun and then piss and moan that he went on a shooting rampage.

Disagree. You can give people alot of leeway to prosecute a war and still not expect this kind of shit. I mean, the Abu Ghraib scandal hit smack in the middle of the US's post-9/11 crazy period and that was a genuine scandal. Like, the freaking Bush administration prosecuted people for that.

No, the American public demonstrated they didn't care about this shit when the news first started coming out and only like 1/3rd of the country went all Shep Smith over it. The rest of the US either turned into Dick Cheney (We should torture more!) or just didn't care one way or the other.

There will likely be no prosecutions over this shit because ultimately the US does not have a broad political consensus that it's wrong. Which is the same reason for most things that the government does that don't get prosecuted.

[Sivin]

My biggest takeaway from this report is how much it reminds me of the Ray Rice thing, with people freaking out after the evidence is made public. What the fuck did you think that report was gonna say?

The fact of the matter is that this kind of practice will never end. Whether it's a divided and ultimately apathetic public, or officials who will simply cover it up. People getting tortured and mistreated as prisoners is a fact of life.

(See what I did there, making it clear that I'm part of the problem?) :thumbsup:

[felice]

I had just turned 18 when 9/11 I can't remember a great political outcry from the left about maybe putting the breaks on the runaway train before we I don't know OVERREACTED and invaded countries that essentially had nothing to do with 9/11 which was sort of the goal in the first place.

Either your memory needs work, or the protests didn't get decent media coverage in the US.

[Dicer]

There will likely be no prosecutions over this shit because ultimately the US does not have a broad political consensus that it's wrong. Which is the same reason for most things that the government does that don't get prosecuted.

Another speaker, Michael Ratner, a human rights lawyer and president of the Center for Constitutional Rights, denounced the conditions in which hundreds of prisoners captured in Afghanistan were being held at the U.S.'s military base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba:

"There are 300 people there right now, in dog cages, surrounded by chain-linked fences, in temperatures of over 100 degrees, infested by vermin in a desert in Cuba. We went to an international court, and the Organization of American States says this is illegal. The US says: ‘We don’t care.’"

Quote from the above link on war protests also explored in a Frontline documentary at the torture happening in Guantanamo.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/torture/

Basically the US is continuing to torture prisoners illegally incarcerated at Guantanamo bay. It's ongoing, not just a thing of the past. Why just blame Bush and Cheney? Obama is equally complicit and responsible. Americans torture with impunity, just like Israel and other repressive regimes.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/dec/10/cia-torture-report-china-and-north-korea-quick-to-settle-accounts

China and North Korea, two of the nations most often criticised by the US over human rights, have lined up to return fire after the Senate published its damning report on the CIA’s use of torture to interrogate captives suspected of terrorist involvement.

Even before the report had been released, China’s state news agency Xinhua carried an editorial saying the US “should clean up its own backyard first and respect the rights of other countries to resolve their issues by themselves”.

Citing the killing of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Missouri, as well as the torture report, it added: “America is neither a suitable role model nor a qualified judge on human rights issues in other countries, as it pertains to be.

“Yet, despite this, people rarely hear the US talking about its own problems, preferring to be vocal on the issues it sees in other countries, including China.”

North Korea, facing unprecedented pressure over domestic human rights abuses since a scathing United Nations report denounced it for crimes against humanity earlier this year, embraced the release of the torture report.

Why the UNSC is turning its face from the inhuman torture practiced by the CIA over which the UN anti-torture committee expressed particular concern and which is dealt with in the 6, 000 page-long report presented by the intelligence committee of the US Senate, and such despicable human rights abuses as white American policemen’s brutalities of shooting and strangling black men to death,” said a KCNA commentary published on Tuesday.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30407950

President Obama: "Part of what sets us apart is that when we do something wrong, we acknowledge it"

And then he went on to say " And then we continue to torture with impunity and the people who tortured prisoners or authorized torture get to go free. That's why we are so unique and awesome. It's time to move on, we tortured some folks, it's whatever."

[Mr Fixit]

Having read some of the torture details today... wow. What an absolute disgrace.

Worst of all is that I've see a lot of people defending it earlier on a couple other sites I frequent and it wasn't that uncommon of an opinion. Some people are of the belief that the second we are attacked in an unconventional way, all of the rules go out the window. To me that means, "as soon as something scares us we are going to completely abandon our principles." I believe the term for that is cowardice...

I've been embarrassed by my country before but this takes the cake for anything I can recall in my lifetime. How is the US going to lecture other countries on human rights with a straight face ever again? I'll bet this whole thing gets downplayed a bit in the US media but this will affect perceptions abroad in the worst possible way. Ugh, makes me sick.

The thing is the US has been doing stuff like this since forever. In almost every single war it has waged. The difference today is that the public is much better informed, there are global media, social media, etc. The people who believe in American exceptionalism are the ones who enable these things to happen again and again. One set of rules for them and the other for the rest of the world. And then countries around the world should listen to US diatribes about democracy and human rights and international tribunals and other such bullshit.

[Mr Fixit]

Disagree. You can give people alot of leeway to prosecute a war and still not expect this kind of shit. I mean, the Abu Ghraib scandal hit smack in the middle of the US's post-9/11 crazy period and that was a genuine scandal. Like, the freaking Bush administration prosecuted people for that.

Think so?

Associated Press in 2008:

The Army has thrown out the conviction of the only officer court-martialed in the Abu Ghraib scandal, bringing an end to the four-year investigation and drawing allegations of a Pentagon whitewash from human rights activists. Lieutenant Colonel Steven L. Jordan was cleared this week of any criminal wrongdoing by Major General Richard J. Rowe, commander of the Military District of Washington. Jordan was given an administrative reprimand, a blot on his record. Barring any startling new information, the decision means no officers or civilian leaders will be held criminally responsible for the prisoner abuse that embarrassed the US military and inflamed the Muslim world.

[Dicer]

Europe complicity with CIA torture:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/09/cia-torture-report-europe-complicity-britain

Do the Geneva conventions even have any value anymore if no one (Except for Sweden) is following them?

Fox news also wants everyone to know that the US is 'simply awesome' after the torture report was released:

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/fox-host-cia-torture-america-awesome

[Horza]

The US is awesome in the classical sense of something that evokes dread and veneration.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

Do the Geneva conventions even have any value anymore if no one (Except for Sweden) is following them?

Do you mean Norway? Sweden took part -- but they are admitting wrongdoing and have paid (at least some) compensation to (at least some) of the affected. It's also not just Norway, unless more info comes out. A shocking number of countries assisted in this, but a few actually held firm (as I can't imagine they weren't asked).

WaPo graphic based on an Open Society Foundation report in 2013: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/02/05/a-staggering-map-of-the-54-countries-that-reportedly-participated-in-the-cias-rendition-program/

[Mr Fixit]

Europe complicity with CIA torture:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/09/cia-torture-report-europe-complicity-britain

Do the Geneva conventions even have any value anymore if no one (Except for Sweden) is following them?

Even Sweden isn't what it used to be. :spank: They too participated in this merry little display of democracy.

Oh man, the map Aoife linked to is hilarious: US gave people over to Syrians as well, for a bit of torture. When Assad's usefulness came to an end, he too became an entry on the long list of US supported, or at least tolerated, dictators that the Americans turned their backs on. Hypocrisy runs so thick one could almost cut it with a knife.

Reminds me of one among the litany of US charges against Saddam in early 2000s as justification for the invasion of Iraq, namely his use of chemical weapons back in the eighties. The horror! Think of the children! The poor children! Until you remember, that is, that those chemical weapons, like anthrax and bubonic plague, were provided to him courtesy of the US and Britain.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-153210/Rumsfeld-helped-Iraq-chemical-weapons.html

http://foreignpolicy.com/2013/08/26/exclusive-cia-files-prove-america-helped-saddam-as-he-gassed-iran/

[Shryke]

Think so?

Associated Press in 2008:

The Army has thrown out the conviction of the only officer court-martialed in the Abu Ghraib scandal, bringing an end to the four-year investigation and drawing allegations of a Pentagon whitewash from human rights activists. Lieutenant Colonel Steven L. Jordan was cleared this week of any criminal wrongdoing by Major General Richard J. Rowe, commander of the Military District of Washington. Jordan was given an administrative reprimand, a blot on his record. Barring any startling new information, the decision means no officers or civilian leaders will be held criminally responsible for the prisoner abuse that embarrassed the US military and inflamed the Muslim world.

You understand that what you quoted means people were convicted and even still face consequences for it, yes? Not as many as they should have, perhaps, but that's not at all the point.

I feel you didn't get that point in the slightest.

[Mr Fixit]

You understand that what you quoted means people were convicted and even still face consequences for it, yes? Not as many as they should have, perhaps, but that's not at all the point.

Oh but it is. It's THE point. Convict some low-level grunts who did what they were ordered to do (not that it excuses their behaviour) and what was being done all over US overseas prison facilities while those truly responsible -- officers who ordered it, people up the chain of command who authorised such tactics, civilian leadership, etc. -- were never brought to justice.

Colonel Pappas was, get this, fined $8,000. Scary, huh? Lt Colonel Jordan was acquitted, and here this is pure gold, because he wasn't read his rights before being interviewed. Just an honest mistake, right?

But, you know, nothing new here. That's been standard practice for a long time. My Lai massacre in 1968, where US soldiers killed some 350-500 villagers, most of them women and children? The only person convicted, out of God knows how many that were involved, after an enormous cover up operation, spent 3 years in prison and was then paroled. No one was convicted of Haditha murders where US Marines killed 24 Iraqi civilians.

The list goes on and on. Why should anyone be surprised and shocked at this report?

[Hello World]

I mean, torture is inhumane without a doubt. But so was flying a couple of planes into the world trade. I was under the illusion that since we are the 'good guys' we were better than this.

Agree. I mean, it’s not like those people didn’t fly airplanes into buildings filled with humans. The “good guys” were definitely better than them: they’re not the ones who started it, and their incentive wasn’t to get sex-slaves in heaven but self-defense. I think everyone needs to remember that, at least.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Agree. I mean, it’s not like those people didn’t fly airplanes into buildings filled with humans. The “good guys” were definitely better than them: they’re not the ones who started it, and their incentive wasn’t to get sex-slaves in heaven but self-defense. I think everyone needs to remember that, at least.

What utter bullshit. Really depressing to see people buying into and repeating the most facile talking points of the torture-mongers.

Read a little bit on this subject and see some of the people we swept up in our torture program who had not a damn thing to do with 9/11, or how effective torturing people was in "self-defense," or how the CIA was aware it was not even effective for "self-defense."

[Inigima]

I've already given my thoughts all over the place (summary: disgusting, utterly expected), but I am heartened that the rank-and-file did object to this program, repeatedly.

The architects should be tried for war crimes.

[Suttree]

I've already given my thoughts all over the place (summary: disgusting, utterly expected), but I am heartened that the rank-and-file did object to this program, repeatedly.

The architects should be tried for war crimes.

My thoughts exactly.

Somewhat pleased to not see anyone fly in with the inane "but what about that other country" angle that we always from the usual suspects in threads like the on one the Ukraine.

[Solmyr]

RE: the "flying planes into buildings" line of argument

When you fight against evil* and find yourself employing the same methods that were used against you, evil has won.

Disclaimed: the word "evil" is not being used in its pure meaning, but rather the meaning most people associate with it in the context of terrorism. The use is meant to illustrate a point and is in no way defining terrorists or their acts as objectively evil.

[NestorMakhnosLovechild]

RE: the "flying planes into buildings" line of argument

When you fight against evil* and find yourself employing the same methods that were used against you, evil has won.

Disclaimed: the word "evil" is not being used in its pure meaning, but rather the meaning most people associate with it in the context of terrorism. The use is meant to illustrate a point and is in no way defining terrorists or their acts as objectively evil.

This conflates two different types of evil. The two types being (1) distinct groups of evil persons and (2) evil acts.

If it were possible to torture Al Qaeda to death, and we did so, Al Qaeda would not have won, even if our acts would have been deplorable and evil.

[straits]

Agree. I mean, it’s not like those people didn’t fly airplanes into buildings filled with humans. The “good guys” were definitely better than them: they’re not the ones who started it, and their incentive wasn’t to get sex-slaves in heaven but self-defense. I think everyone needs to remember that, at least.

Anyone who thinks "sex slaves in heaven" or any religious concept is the cause or in any way the motivator of 9/11 deliberately misunderstands the enemy they've created. "Who started it" is another can of worms.

[Solmyr]

If it were possible to torture Al Qaeda to death, and we did so, Al Qaeda would not have won, even if our acts would have been deplorable and evil.

Al Qaeda would not have won, but evil would have. This is the reason I used evil in my original statement - many people associate Al Qaeda and other terrorist organisations and their acts as evil, but if you fight them through evil means, there is more evil in the world and evil has won.