Commodore Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Senate Democrat Report Exonerates Senate Democrats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeyBanana Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 It really, really isn't. The idea that there could ever be any conceivable justification for those practises is a huge part of the problem. No. There will always be people that don't care about morals or ethics. The core problem is the illusion of effectiveness, which is always used as the justification for those practises. It's not "they deserve it" but "everybody breaks". The world already dealt with the former some time ago, now the latter needs to be discredited as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dicer Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Not surprising at all. Is anyone? Everyone knew that the Americans torture and are involved in extraordinary rendition. People have testified to it and even identified the people who tortured them. The torture is still going on in Guantanamo Bay with the unlawful, illegal imprisonments of people in isolation and force feedings etc. I can see why the US and Israel are best buddies. Use of rape threats against family members seems to be a favorite tactic of the Israelis too. One of the Israeli government representatives even spoke out on radio supporting the technique. The fact that the US has the gall to criticize other countries for human rights abuses is just laughable at this point. After this report, how the hell do they expect to lecture another country on Geneva conventions and human rights? Hey Sri Lanka, we are going to bring a resolution against you in the UN for torture and murder. We do it too, but just ignore that, okay? And China? Oh Boy! The Chinese will love this report. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swordfish Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Torture is unacceptable. The CIA should be eliminated. News at 11. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dicer Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 The core problem is the illusion of effectiveness, which is always used as the justification for those practises. It's not "they deserve it" but "everybody breaks". The world already dealt with the former some time ago, now the latter needs to be discredited as well. Well, American scientists are certainly eager to study the topic. There was an article about this last month in the Intercept, talking about the APA (The American Psychological Association) bending their rules and ethics to accommodate torture. https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/10/17/blowing-whistle-cia-torture-beyond-grave/ The APA in 2002 famously revised its ethics code to permit a psychologist to follow “governing legal authority” even if it clashed with the APA’s own code of ethics. It was, essentially, the Nuremberg Defense of “just following orders.” As Risen writes, the 2002 change allowed psychologists to be involved in CIA and military interrogations, and “helped the lawyers in the Justice Department to argue that the enhanced interrogation program was legal because health professionals were monitoring the interrogations to make sure they stayed within the limits established by the Bush administration.” A Santa Monica liberal who “expressed distaste for George Bush,” he was nonetheless tightly connected to people involved in the administration’s interrogation program. He had top secret/sensitive compartmented information clearance, according to Risen, and a psychologist told Risen “he seemed optimistic about the possibilities of testing out psychological theories on interrogation issues.” These experiments should have given them lots of data and one of their conclusions was: Indeed, in a 2005 New York Times op-ed that reads as almost naïve in the wake of the Abu Ghraib revelations, he and a co-author wrote that the idea “that harsh treatment of prisoners can be less effective than showing compassion…now deserves a test in Iraq.” Treating prisoners well “would help reverse the terrible propaganda defeat suffered with the revelations of torture at Abu Ghraib,” he wrote, and “prisoners released by our forces would return to their communities with stories of American generosity and tolerance.” But even with these results, I don't see the practice of torture going away any time soon. Here's a white paper report titled " EXPERIMENTS IN TORTURE: Evidence of Human Subject Research and Experimentation in the “Enhanced” Interrogation Program" https://s3.amazonaws.com/PHR_Reports/Experiments_in_Torture.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hyrule Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 They are telling us the techniques didn't work, but who can believe them?Who can believe liars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hyrule Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 They are telling us the techniques didn't work, but who can believe them?Who can believe liars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shryke Posted December 10, 2014 Author Share Posted December 10, 2014 Senate Democrat Report Exonerates Senate Democrats Thanks Commodore. I was afraid someone would actually make me cite Fox News to prove what I talked about in my OP re: the right and defending torture. You've managed to clear that right up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S John Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Having read some of the torture details today... wow. What an absolute disgrace. Worst of all is that I've see a lot of people defending it earlier on a couple other sites I frequent and it wasn't that uncommon of an opinion. Some people are of the belief that the second we are attacked in an unconventional way, all of the rules go out the window. To me that means, "as soon as something scares us we are going to completely abandon our principles." I believe the term for that is cowardice... I've been embarrassed by my country before but this takes the cake for anything I can recall in my lifetime. How is the US going to lecture other countries on human rights with a straight face ever again? I'll bet this whole thing gets downplayed a bit in the US media but this will affect perceptions abroad in the worst possible way. Ugh, makes me sick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Anti-Targ Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 The US still ratified the Geneva Convention Against Torture - and the president signing it was a certain Ronald Raegan. So let me quote the Patron Saint of the US right wing: Geneva Convention does not apply. They made sure of that by declaring each captive an enemy combatant or some such, so that there was no war to which war crimes under any international treaty can be attached. I thought one solution was quite interesting. Obama should give a presidential pardon to Cheney and Bush. You only get a presidential pardon when you've done something criminal, hence it brands Bush and Cheney as criminals for all time, but does not try to achieve the impossible of actually securing a criminal conviction. Of course he does not need to pardon anyone else and I'm sure it is potentially possible for someone with some balls to indict some CIA big wig for torture under an appropriate US statute. And the right wing praise and labeling as heroes of these torturers comes at the same time as Angelina Jolie is being castigated by Japanese nationalists, with accusations of racism and calls to ban her from the country, who don't appreciate her having directed a movie about Japan's attrocious treatment of US PoWs in WWII. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Kilmore Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Depressing, I really can't find the words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dicer Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 I'll bet this whole thing gets downplayed a bit in the US media but this will affect perceptions abroad in the worst possible way. The rest of the world already know about American double standards with respect to pretty much everything from terrorism to torture, from propping up dictators while falsely spouting about democracy to looking away from human rights abuses. That's why when Obama or Kerry stand up there and make statements about other countries no one takes their bluster seriously. Map: The 54 countries that helped the CIA with its torture-linked rendition program http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/02/05/a-staggering-map-of-the-54-countries-that-reportedly-participated-in-the-cias-rendition-program/ http://www.vox.com/2014/12/9/7361291/map-cia Countries ranging from brutal dictatorships and repressive regimes (Syria, Egypt, Saudi Arabia) to the apparently progressive nations like the UK and Australia. The section on Syria is disturbing. That government's record of horrific abuses has spilled out into the open since the uprising of 2011 became a civil war, with more Syrians subjected to – and speaking out about – a torture regime that sounds as if it were from another century. According to a 2005 article by the New Yorker's Jane Mayer, quoted in the report, Syria was one of the "most common destinations for rendered suspects." Government forces, according to the report, held some U.S.-provided detainees in a prison known as "The Grave" for its coffin-sized cells and subjected them to "torture involving a chair frame used to stretch the spine (the 'German chair') and beatings." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relic Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Disgusting. Yet, it is my opinion that anyone who is surprised by this needs to wake the fuck up. This shit is just the tip of the iceberg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Durckad Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Had a coworker comment today that 'the only reason it didn't work was because their [the torturer's] hands were tied.' I really fucking hate people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wise Fool Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Were these Islamic terrorist activities, the right wing would be demanding apologies and/or condemnations from the world's Muslim population (lest, by not doing so, they prove their support of atrocity!). But the right wing will be silent as far as demanding Americans prove they don't approve of atrocities in this case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueMetis Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Well to apologize would require them to admit there was an atrocity to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanteGabriel Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Were these Islamic terrorist activities, the right wing would be demanding apologies and/or condemnations from the world's Muslim population (lest, by not doing so, they prove their support of atrocity!). But the right wing will be silent as far as demanding Americans prove they don't approve of atrocities in this case. Over in the Right Wing Crank section of my Facebook feed, they are crowing over Trey Gowdy apparently giving Jonathan Gruber a real whupping in Congress today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoungGriff89 Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Over in the Right Wing Crank section of my Facebook feed, they are crowing over Trey Gowdy apparently giving Jonathan Gruber a real whupping in Congress today. Typical modern day Democratic stupidity. "Sorry I was right about this thing and sorry I told the truth, don't yell at me please Mr Tough Republican man." Trey Gowdy is such a bag of hot air. If I were Gruber I'd stand by my comments and ask Gowdy to explain how American voters weren't totally ignorant on our healthcare system and to explain the difference between Obamacare and the Affordable Care Act. But, different topic for a different thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solmyr Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Can anyone claim genuine surprise at these news? To me it just adds to the long lists of reasons why I want to stay as far away from the loving embrace of uncle Sam and his cronies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazydog7 Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 The American public at large has demonstrated that they really don't care about shit like this if they did we wouldn't have essentially given the powers that be a blank check after 9/11. We need to look in the mirror you can't hand someone a machine gun and then piss and moan that he went on a shooting rampage. I had just turned 18 when 9/11 I can't remember a great political outcry from the left about maybe putting the breaks on the runaway train before we I don't know OVERREACTED and invaded countries that essentially had nothing to do with 9/11 which was sort of the goal in the first place. The part that scares the shit out of me is that there is almost an entire generation now for whom the post 9/11 world is now utterly normal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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