A question about the Crown's debts.

[Salafi Stannis]

Ok, so we read in AGoT that the Crown is 6 million gold dragons in debt. My question is, how is this possible? Robert's whoring and drinking did not cost anywhere near this much, and I don't believe he was invested enough in the management of the realm to have spent so much. Has Littlefinger been siphoning the Crown's finances into his own pocket?

[LordStoneheart]

In an episode review, I think Elio said he thinks so regarding LF.

[John Doe]

In an episode review, I think Elio said he thinks so regarding LF.

Ah, in this case I was right again.

[SeanF]

Ok, so we read in AGoT that the Crown is 6 million gold dragons in debt. My question is, how is this possible? Robert's whoring and drinking did not cost anywhere near this much, and I don't believe he was invested enough in the management of the realm to have spent so much. Has Littlefinger been siphoning the Crown's finances into his own pocket?

The Royal Navy had to rebuilt, after it was destroyed at Dragonstone. That would have cost a fortune, along with suppressing the Greyjoy rebellion. At the same time, Crown revenues are probably being siphoned off, not just by LF, but by his civil servants, the Lannisters, and dozens of lords. Probably the Greyjoys were ordered to pay a huge war indemnity, but little of the money has reached Kings Landing.

[MyLittleFinger]

Ok, so we read in AGoT that the Crown is 6 million gold dragons in debt. My question is, how is this possible? Robert's whoring and drinking did not cost anywhere near this much, and I don't believe he was invested enough in the management of the realm to have spent so much. Has Littlefinger been siphoning the Crown's finances into his own pocket?

Only debt can pay for life.

[Tywin Manderly]

Littlefinger was systematically robbing the Treasury and Robert did not care about the ballooning debt as long as the money for his eating, drinking, whoring, tournaments, feasts and other amusements kept on coming.

[LordStoneheart]

Ah, in this case I was right again.

You were right about what Elio thinks?

[David Selig]

Most money related stuff in the books doesn't make sense. Especially in the first two books. IMO Martin screwed up.

[cheezitguy]

Most money related stuff in this books doesn't make sense. Especially in the first two books. IMO Martin screwed up.

Yes. Especially looking at Sandor's tournament winnings. Martin isn't so good with numbers in a certain sense.

[Bironic]

How long was LF master of coin before AGOT? And who was master of coin before him? This would give us much more insight in how Robert turned a great amount of money (at the end of Aerys reign) into an extreme debt (at the end of his reign).

[Marten]

Yes. Especially looking at Sandor's tournament winnings. Martin isn't so good with numbers in a certain sense.

Yes, either LF is a far worse master of coin than given credit for, or there is some really wrong with the Westerosi economy. They had peace, good weather and overall good conditions, and somehow managed to rack up a huge debt. There is no way Robert could have had that much wine.

[Jaak]

Yet we are directly told that Littlefinger´s predecessor was "beleaguered". The trouble is not Petyr´s doing.

We are also told that Petyr had increased Crown income tenfold. The income was bigger than ever before, but not necessarily ten times the income of Hand Tywin.

My guess is that Robert had, early in his reign, given away most of Crown income streams to buy political support - give away Crown lands, lower taxes et cetera. And kept spending as if he had more than Aerys´ income. So Petyr´s work was finding new incomes from people who could not protest, instead of resuming the incomes that had been given away to those who could protest.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Even if LF did increase the crowns incomes, which I don't dispute, he clearly did so with reckless abandon. He left the crown with no reserve at all, which forced him to take out loans for things that did not pay themselves back, such as the tourney. Taking out a loan to buy a ship to make money off of trade will work, but taking out a loan for things that are just a 1 time expense is extremely irresponsible. In a real world example, you take out a loan to buy a rental property, you then use the rental income to pay off the loan and even before the loan is paid off you will be fine to get another to buy a new property. But you don't take out a loan to go to a sporting event, unless your a moron.

[Nyrhex]

I love how LF's Ponzi Scheme gets completely overlooked because no one ever checks the books, and even when they do they don't know what to make of it. A nobody with a tower overlooking a few rocky acres of land gets complete and unchecked control over a continent's wealth, builds a network of solid high revenue establishments in his name while taking loans from everyone and thier mother to keep the crown above water, and no one bats an eye.

Robert has a couple of large tourneys and a minor rebellion during 15 years of relative peace and the longest summer in living memory and having taken full vaults of gold from a realm who had spent over a year in a massive civil war, and everybody loses thier minds.

[Erza Whitewalker]

Possibly fun question regarding the Crown's debt...Has anyone ever tried to do an estimate of how much the "Dwarf's Penny" flat tax brought to the royal coffers? Just how many prostitutes are there in KL and how often do they perform a single service per day? Ironically a place like Chataya's probably collects a fraction of that of a cheap brothel. I guess Robert would have been exempt from this law if he had lived and if he had agreed to it. (highly doubtful)

Just taking a poke at one of GRRM's criticisms of Tolkien, "what was his tax policy?"

[jarl the climber]

Yet we are directly told that Littlefinger´s predecessor was "beleaguered". The trouble is not Petyr´s doing.

We are also told that Petyr had increased Crown income tenfold. The income was bigger than ever before, but not necessarily ten times the income of Hand Tywin.

My guess is that Robert had, early in his reign, given away most of Crown income streams to buy political support - give away Crown lands, lower taxes et cetera. And kept spending as if he had more than Aerys´ income. So Petyr´s work was finding new incomes from people who could not protest, instead of resuming the incomes that had been given away to those who could protest.

I also think that the War that brought him to power did a good deal of damage to the countrydside and left a lot of Lords in debt and that Robert probably bailed them out to gain support at the Crowns expense. Kings Landing was brutally sacked by all accounts, how much did it cost to fix that?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Ok, so we read in AGoT that the Crown is 6 million gold dragons in debt. My question is, how is this possible? Robert's whoring and drinking did not cost anywhere near this much

Actually, have you seen how many stars bankrupt for spending too much money? He's been doing this for 14 years. Add that to LF and it's not THAT impossible.

[Bryanfury]

The important thing is that even though the crowns income under Littlefinger increased, somehow Robert's supposed spending increased by the same amount at the same time judging from the fact that there was still net loss. So, either Robert magically feels compelled to modify his personal expenses to spend every copper coming in, or the master of coin was doing some dirty dealing.

OH WAIT, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE STORY TELLS US!

He went back to work after she left, trying to track some golden dragons through the labyrinth of Littlefinger’s ledgers. Petyr Baelish had not believed in letting gold sit about and grow dusty, that was for certain, but the more Tyrion tried to make sense of his accounts the more his head hurt.

Littlefinger spent money on his own accord. Hell, Littlefinger was actually using the crowns money to give loans:

I wouldn’t have been so quick to let Joffrey fling the Antler Men over the walls if I’d known how many of the bloody bastards had taken loans from the crown.

I mean, I seriously don't understand how anyone can still sit around thinking Robert just had such a massive spending habit that he sunk the crown into debt. I don't doubt he was quick to spend money on his vices, but there's no reason why Robert should have drained the treasury anymore than Aegon the Unworthy, for example. The simple fact is we are told multiple times that Littlefingers stint as master of coin was shifty as fuck, and we are told that many of the things LF spent money on were not done at Roberts request. Littlefinger embezzled the crown, and that's why it's in debt.

[MyLittleFinger]

The important thing is that even though the crowns income under Littlefinger increased, somehow Robert's supposed spending increased by the same amount at the same time judging from the fact that there was still net loss. So, either Robert magically feels compelled to modify his personal expenses to spend every copper coming in, or the master of coin was doing some dirty dealing.

OH WAIT, THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE STORY TELLS US!

Littlefinger spent money on his own accord. Hell, Littlefinger was actually using the crowns money to give loans:

I mean, I seriously don't understand how anyone can still sit around thinking Robert just had such a massive spending habit that he sunk the crown into debt. I don't doubt he was quick to spend money on his vices, but there's no reason why Robert should have drained the treasury anymore than Aegon the Unworthy, for example. The simple fact is we are told multiple times that Littlefingers stint as master of coin was shifty as fuck, and we are told that many of the things LF spent money on were not done at Roberts request. Littlefinger embezzled the crown, and that's why it's in debt.

LF takes over for somebody about 11 years into the reign of Robert. That includes the Greyjoy Rebellion and the building of a royal fleet. Why would Jon Arryn personally pick LF to be Master of Coin? Did the previous one die? Or were they out of money? Or both? Seriously he was by all means managing Gulltown's affairs excellently and then was brought to court to help them out in the treasury before eventually being promoted to MoC.

I find it far more likely that the Crown was already practically broke when he gets the job and that they needed somebody with a talent for finding and making money.

As for Aegon the Unworthy, whose to say why he never went broke, or whose to say that his reign wasn't in massive debt? Whose to say he didn't raise taxes on all seven kingdoms to help pay for his hubris?

Robert's position was tenuous at best when he first sat the throne, I doubt he could raise taxes even if he wanted to...which why would he, he's an idiot and he's basically in league with too many Lords Paramount. Is he going to raise taxes on his brothers? On his best friend for life? On his best friends wife's family? On his father in law's land? On the man who basically raised him and is his Hand's land? No. He can't. Can he risk offending the Reach by raising their taxes, those notorious guys who fought for the Targs and are massively powerful? The Dornish are already on nasty terms, it seems Jon Arryn wanted to just leave them alone to stew on it. And you can't get money out of the Iron Islands they're poor as hell.

Martin was too vague and offhand with the money thing for story purposes.

[Muggle]

LF embezzled a lot of money from the IT. Next to the Lannisters and Redwynes Id say he is the richest person in Westeros