R + L = J v. 126

[markg171]

For our references. This was posted in another thread and it might be something we want to tuck away for future.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/10/arts/television/game-of-thrones-on-hbo-from-george-r-r-martin-novels.html?_r=1

And what about in that other thread where this was also posted?

DAN WEISS: He asked us, “Who is Jon Snow’s mother?” We had discussed it before, and we gave a shocking answer. At that point, George didn’t actually say whether or not we were right or wrong, but his smile was his tell. We knew we had passed the Wonka test, at that point.

http://collider.com/game-of-thrones-season-3-4-george-r-r-martin-interview/

If the answer to the question is shocking, and so many people have figured out R+L=J, then how is Lyanna being his mother a shocking answer?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

And what about in that other thread where this was also posted?

http://collider.com/game-of-thrones-season-3-4-george-r-r-martin-interview/

If the answer to the question is shocking, and so many people have figured out R+L=J, then how is Lyanna being his mother a shocking answer?

For new readers, the reveal could be quite shocking ;)

[BearQueen87]

And what about in that other thread where this was also posted?

http://collider.com/game-of-thrones-season-3-4-george-r-r-martin-interview/

If the answer to the question is shocking, and so many people have figured out R+L=J, then how is Lyanna being his mother a shocking answer?

Have you spoken to many Unsullied? None of them--and I do mean none of them--think RLJ. When Sean Bean said a few months ago that it's really obvious that Ned is not Jon's father, the Unsullied exploded in confusion.

To the Unsullied, L is very shocking since most of them thought Ned was the father and L is obviously his sister

[Kingmonkey]

It should also be noted that Jaime is not called "kingslayer" simply because he killed a king but rather that he killed the king he was sworn to protect. I suspect that if Aerys was killed by someone else (non KG), that person would not have been labelled "kingslayer".

Ser Elys Westerling and Lord Crakehall and others of his father's knights burst into the hall in time to see the last of it, so there was no way for Jaime to vanish and let some braggart steal the praise or blame. It would be blame, he knew at once when he saw the way they looked at him . . . though perhaps that was fear. Lannister or no, he was one of Aerys's seven.

There's no question that Jaime's kingslayer nickname is a special thing, and his position as one of the Kingsguard makes his kingslaying particularly abhorrent in many eyes. However it's not entirely unique to Jamie. J.Stargaryen gaves us a quote here about the difference between killing a king in battle and "foul murder", which certainly applies to Gregor's killing of Aegon.

While Gregor wasn't a Kingsguard, insults don't have to be spot-on accurate -- see the Robb/Karstark "kinslaying" for an example. While Gregor wouldn't of course get the universal consideration of kingslaying that Jaime got, it would still be a powerful accusation for Oberyn to make.

[Avalatis]

Correcting myself with the actual quote

Does that actually relate to being called "Kingslayer"? I believe that was a disccusion by Ned for why he did not trust Jaime and why he shouldn't become Warden of the East. Kingslayer was a widely used term (as it seem Jaime encounters it a lot) since he slayed a King (which seems to be a taboo action).

His violation of KG vows would be something like an "Oathbreaker" or "Traitor".

[Ser Leftwich]

Jaime was seen by several people and Robert made the "don't make a habit of it" joke.

Gregor killing the baby is: not exactly common knowledge, not something Robert was making jokes/nicknames out of, and not something random people would jibe Gregor with.

[Ser Leftwich]

Alia of the knife, on 07 Jan 2015 - 09:43 AM, said:

An examination of Patchface and what his role is.
Why was he the only survivor when Berantheons ship went down, (thinks of Pillars of the Earth).

Was there a dragon bride on that ship after all?

To start off on Patchface, he just seems a foil to Mel. She is all very serious (and is taken seriously), fire and brimstone, about how important R'hllor and the War for the Dawn, etc are.

While Patchface is in some ways more accurate, but viewed as a fool.

"Who is the bigger fool, the fool or the fool who follows him?"

[alienarea]

Apologies for jumping in, I was going to post in the R+L hole thread when it got locked.

Can we agree that in general people in Westeros, explicitly including Robert Baratheon, have a basic understanding of pregnancy, i.e. that it involves a man and a woman having sex and the child usually being born about 9 months later?

If so, isn't it suspicious that Ned Stark returned from a war with a bastard son, and his sister whose abduction was a main cause of said war, and who was according to the king of Westeros being raped over and over again during her abduction, but apparently no one in Westeros added 1 + 1 and concluded the bastard son of Ned Stark was the product of Lyanna's abduction and assumed rape? Ned could stop rumors in Winterfell (which pointed at Ashara), but in all of Westeros? Sure.

This implies the story Ned told Robert about his bastard son has to be plausible in its basic components, i.e. Ned must have had the possibility to have sex with another woman around nine months before the assumed birth of Jon Snow.

Btw, this could be a reason why Ned claims Jon is younger than Robb. Because if he were older he would not have the opportunity to father him.

Unrelated, about Ashara. Assuming she were the mother of Jon Snow for arguments sake, and she killed herself like it is said, then honorable Ned would not name her as Jon's mother to keep her honor and it would explain the respect of House Dayne for Ned (in addition to returning Dawn).

Assume Ned returns with Jon naming Ashara his mother. Could he legalize Jon? Wouldn't that somehow bind the North and Dorne to Ned? Would his best friend Robert feel threatened by this power?

[Ser Leftwich]

<snip>

Assume Ned returns with Jon naming Ashara his mother. Could he legalize Jon? Wouldn't that somehow bind the North and Dorne to Ned? Would his best friend Robert feel threatened by this power?

Robert would have to legitimize Jon. Daynes =/= all of Dorne bound to Ned.

[Ygrain]

I doubt that Ned advertised all around Westeros when Jon was born and that anyone was really able to remember what happened 9 months ago.

[markg171]

Perhaps to avoid fights with the remainder of Tywin's army? Or simply to avoid that part of Tywin's army, and whatever they had brought with them and left outside of the city (wagons and such)...

Yet Jaime wasn't there either. What was easier to enter? The Red Keep, or Maegor's Holdfast? Gregor and Amory went over the walls with Maegor's Holdfast, but was the Red Keep undefended then? Doors opened? The King unguarded (in the throne room, yes, but outside the throne room?)..?

Jaime was in charge of defences as the only KG available and IIRC, he mentioned that once he saw Tywin's army that he knew there was no way that he could hold out or win. He doesn't even really attempt to organize a defence, he goes and asks for permission to surrender. So I doubt there was much of a defence being staged when Jaime, who was in command of the defence, wasn't actively trying to organize a defence and wanted to surrender.

[Consigliere]

There's no question that Jaime's kingslayer nickname is a special thing, and his position as one of the Kingsguard makes his kingslaying particularly abhorrent in many eyes. However it's not entirely unique to Jamie. J.Stargaryen gaves us a quote here about the difference between killing a king in battle and "foul murder", which certainly applies to Gregor's killing of Aegon.

While Gregor wasn't a Kingsguard, insults don't have to be spot-on accurate -- see the Robb/Karstark "kinslaying" for an example. While Gregor wouldn't of course get the universal consideration of kingslaying that Jaime got, it would still be a powerful accusation for Oberyn to make.

I don't see why it is odd that Oberyn does not call Gregor "kingslayer". He does not call him "raper" or "rapist" either.

[Dorian Martell]

Hodor?

[Alia of the knife]

Alia of the knife, on 07 Jan 2015 - 09:43 AM, said:

To start off on Patchface, he just seems a foil to Mel. She is all very serious (and is taken seriously), fire and brimstone, about how important R'hllor and the War for the Dawn, etc are.

While Patchface is in some ways more accurate, but viewed as a fool.

"Who is the bigger fool, the fool or the fool who follows him?"

Thanks for reposting, I didn't have time to respond until I got home from work, and it was done.

That is a good point, but I do wonder how he came to be the lone survivor of that ship wreck, and if he isn't playing a role himself.

[Alia of the knife]

I doubt that Ned advertised all around Westeros when Jon was born and that anyone was really able to remember what happened 9 months ago.

I'm surprised he didn't. He accused Cersei on her own turf of being a traitor, and was about to blow the lid off the truth about her kids. :bang: :bang:

He could have skipped out in the middle of the night like crazy Lysa had the good sense to do, (note that crazy doesn't always mean wrong), and once back in the defense of WF, THEN raven everyone with news.

But nooooo...,,, :bawl: :bawl:

[Ser Leftwich]

Thanks for reposting, I didn't have time to respond until I got home from work, and it was done.

That is a good point, but I do wonder how he came to be the lone survivor of that ship wreck, and if he isn't playing a role himself.

The madman hiding in plain sight is someone no one would suspect.

[Alia of the knife]

The madman hiding in plain sight is someone no one would suspect.

Right. I mean today, we are on to clowns and their evil ways, but then?

They were considered harmless. :stunned:

[The Twinslayer]

Here are Tyrion's thoughts on Kingslaying:

"'Castle Black teems with murderers, thieves and rapists, but I don't recall meeting many regicides while I was there. You expect me to believe that if I admit to being a kinslayer and a kingslayer, my father will simply nod..."

So you don't have to be a KG to be a kingslayer.

Also, Robb also says he plans to kill Joffrey in AGOT: "Were he to die, and I mean to see that he does, he has a younger brother. Tommen is next in line after Joffrey."

I doubt Robb would only kill Joffrey in battle. If Joffrey did not fight, Robb would kill him anyway. There would be no dishonor in that, but Robb would still be a kingslayer.

[Avalatis]

Here are Tyrion's thoughts on Kingslaying:

"'Castle Black teems with murderers, thieves and rapists, but I don't recall meeting many regicides while I was there. You expect me to believe that if I admit to being a kinslayer and a kingslayer, my father will simply nod..."

So you don't have to be a KG to be a kingslayer.

Also, Robb also says he plans to kill Joffrey in AGOT: "Were he to die, and I mean to see that he does, he has a younger brother. Tommen is next in line after Joffrey."

I doubt Robb would only kill Joffrey in battle. If Joffrey did not fight, Robb would kill him anyway. There would be no dishonor in that, but Robb would still be a kingslayer.

True. But history is written by the victors. If the Starks won the war and the narrative was that Joffery was never truly King since he was bastard born of incest, then there probably wouldn't be any stigma.

[The Twinslayer]

When Robb said that, he thought Joff and Tommen were legitimate. His plan was to slay King Joff in retribution for Ned's death and to make Tommen king on the IT. Robb would stay as King in the North. He would be a kingslayer but with no stigma.