addicted to snow Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Having a Great Council choose a new king is what most would call anti-climatic writing... GRRM was screwing with you guys on this thread when he suggested it... There is nothing bitter-sweet about about a Great Council... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Having a Great Council choose a new king is what most would call anti-climatic writing... GRRM was screwing with you guys on this thread when he suggested it... There is nothing bitter-sweet about about a Great Council... Many people think that taking the crown is happy ending for a character but the Realm will be so devastated and the losses will be so great that the crown will be a poisoned gift. This is indeed a bittersweet ending, similar to the LotR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 There's one called The Death of Kings that says that when Barristan killed Maelys, he extinguished Daemon's line. Which would make the secret Blackfyres that people seem to think exist, not exist as there are no Blackfyres. Show spoiler: This might be a relevant argument if they had cast a show!Aegon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I don't think they will all skip the civil war and fight side by side against the Others. I don't think Jon will be the sole candidate. He will certainly not press his claim by himself. I believe Shireen will survive along with Dany's posssible child. By blood, these are strong candidates but as we know from Rhaenys, Vaella and Maegor, the Lords do not like a female monarch over a male monarch and they do not want a child/baby monarch because of unpleasant experience with the regency of Aegon III. I think SR will survive and his Lords might press his claim to the throne.SR? Sweetrobin? How does he have a claim to the throne? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 SR? Sweetrobin? How does he have a claim to the throne? They are the purest Andal nobility. They married into the Targaryens more than everyone and it is possible that they have Targaryen ancestry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 They are the purest Andal nobility. They married into the Targaryens more than everyone and it is possible that they have Targaryen ancestry.Being the purest Andel nobility does not give them the right to the Targaryen throne, though.Nor does their blood claim, because that is non-existant. Aemma was an only child, apparently, and lady Jeyne had no Targaryen blood herself. Nor does it seem she was succeeded as ruler of the Vale by a descendant of her own.The current Arryns do not have Targaryen blood, that is quite heavily implied. And marrying your daughter to a Targaryen (who does not inherit himself), does not give your (great)grandchildren any rights to a throne. Neither is House Arryn the house with the most Targaryen marriages, btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greymoon Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I don't think they will all skip the civil war and fight side by side against the Others. I don't think Jon will be the sole candidate. He will certainly not press his claim by himself. I believe Shireen will survive along with Dany's posssible child. By blood, these are strong candidates but as we know from Rhaenys, Vaella and Maegor, the Lords do not like a female monarch over a male monarch and they do not want a child/baby monarch because of unpleasant experience with the regency of Aegon III. I think SR will survive and his Lords might press his claim to the throne. The thing is, if GRRM spoke of a Great Council, did he say exactly what the modalities of such a council would be? If Jon is to be freed of his vows, I don't see that happening at the very end, but way before that -- soon, even. Which is why I suggested early up thread that a Great Council could be called for the northern/riverlander inheritance. The specific case we've seen concerned the Targaryen inheritance of the Iron Throne -- at a time the realm was united. Currently, this is not the case, Robb declared independence, Stannis and Cersei are fighting over the IT. Aside from being de facto under Lannister hegemony, do the North and Riverlands actually belong to the realm still? The context being that of an ongoing civil war, imo, this is very much a question of definition. The Lannisters never recognized the North's independence -- yet the Lannisters never were legitimate rulers. So what of the northerners themselves? -- Robb did not yield, he was murdered and betrayed by his own men. Does that count as right of conquest? Stannis is the legitimate heir, but he 'lost' his kingdom too, and as of yet, has not conquered much. He lost dragonstone if Aurane Waters is to be believed, and he never reached the IT, and not all believe the claims that Tommen was born of incest. So what is Stannis's legitimacy in the north? in the eyes of the realm? Is a King without a throne, a King at all? Stannis has become a sort of 'default' candidate, but will he truly manage to rally the whole north behind him? and the riverlands? I doubt it. He's lost too many men on his march to Winterfell, he burns criminals alive, and allows Mel too much freedom. This isn't going to go over well with 'non-believers' who represent a majority in these regions -- and the whole of westeros. The northerners are not quite satisfied with him, else Manderly would not be looking for Rickon. Alysanne would have joined him sooner, etc. And as for the riverlanders, I'm not certain they would side with him either, especially as it looks that they'll gain their freedom not through Stannis, but through their own efforts and with the help of the BwB. Manderly is betting on Rickon Stark, Petyr Baelish on Sansa Stark -- and Robb's will is bound to be revealed, too. This is a plausible scenario for the calling of a GC of the North/Riverlands... How many lords are necessary to deliberate? What makes a Great Council? would one or two representative of each region be sufficient? I think the former GCs make a precedent for solving inheritance matters, but I don't see why these should be limited explicitly to the IT. The Lords of Westeros are familiar with the concept, that's all requirement needed for them to make the decision to call one -- even, if they change it's original purpose to fit it to the context of civil war and northern secession. This is only one scenario. What you propose, would be a council happening at the very end? I don't see why it should be between Jon, Shireen and a child of Dany's. It is indeed possible that fighting will continue in the south even if the north is under attack. But does that mean that Dany will die? And why should a child of hers be involved? She's already an 'imperfect' candidate, because she's a woman, was exiled for her whole life, and is the mad King's daughter. If she was responsible for fAegon's death, she'll be considered a Kinslayer, too. Many people think Dany will die of childbirth -- I'm not certain she will, I do think that ultimately her believing to be barren will cause her trouble, as in, she might have an illegitimate child with an unsuitable consort.... In any case, for a GC, having a toddler in her stead changes little, but makes the choice even easier. Shireen would only ever be considered a candidate if she survived, not a given either, and if Stannis actually left a legacy. Because if the Iron Throne is conquered by fAegon, and from him by Dany for ex. Shireen has little right to it, her blood relation to House Targaryen goes back a few generations.... She's a Baratheon heir.... and as far as Baratheon heirs go, I'm afraid, Gendry makes a better candidate. He's strong, healthy and has Robert's look, he's known by the small folk, has been knighted, will probably be involved with the 'liberation' of the riverlands... he's a good candidate for claiming Storm's End, and is a friend of House Stark -- there is potential here for a great alliance. Edric Storm is another good candidate. These two, unlike Shireen (because she's better protected and Stannis was lord of Dragonstone), are actually susceptible of being 'used' by others for a 'legitimate' hold on Storm's End. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Being the purest Andel nobility does not give them the right to the Targaryen throne, though. I think the Targaryen throne will be burned with the RK in the end. So, the Lords will not be selecting someone to the Targaryen throne. In fact, Targaryens are overthrown for nearly two decades and if Dany succeeds to restore the Targaryens, there will not be a Great Council at all. If there will be a Great Council, then Dany will not be able to restore the Targaryens. Nor does their blood claim, because that is non-existant. Aemma was an only child, apparently, and lady Jeyne had no Targaryen blood herself. Nor does it seem she was succeeded as ruler of the Vale by a descendant of her own.The current Arryns do not have Targaryen blood, that is quite heavily implied. And marrying your daughter to a Targaryen (who does not inherit himself), does not give your (great)grandchildren any rights to a throne. Neither is House Arryn the house with the most Targaryen marriages, btw. Ned told Robert that his claim was better than Jon Arryn's or his. That means both Jon Arryn or Ned had a considerable claim to even the IT. Having the largest amount of legitimate Targ blood was an argument in the early Great Councils but with Maegor's dismissal, that argument lost its importance even during the Targaryen reign. In the upcoming Great Council, those who support Dany's surviving child will emphasize this argument but their rivals will not be committed to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 He knew nothing of his mother; Eddard Stark would not talk of her. Yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that he could almost see her face. In his dreams, she was beautiful, and highborn, and her eyes were kind. The next mention of "beautiful" in the text after this quote is this: “Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her.”“Lyanna was beautiful,” Arya said, startled. Everybody said so. It was not a thing that was ever said of Arya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I think the Targaryen throne will be burned with the RK in the end. So, the Lords will not be selecting someone to the Targaryen throne. In fact, Targaryens are overthrown for nearly two decades and if Dany succeeds to restore the Targaryens, there will not be a Great Council at all. If there will be a Great Council, then Dany will not be able to restore the Targaryens. Ned told Robert that his claim was better than Jon Arryn's or his. That means both Jon Arryn or Ned had a considerable claim to even the IT. Having the largest amount of legitimate Targ blood was an argument in the early Great Councils but with Maegor's dismissal, that argument lost its importance even during the Targaryen reign. In the upcoming Great Council, those who support Dany's surviving child will emphasize this argument but their rivals will not be committed to it. Not necessarily. They all had a claim by right of conquest, but Robert had the additional claim of Targaryen blood. Honestly, I think there's zero chance that a GC would choose a sickly boy with no heir to solve a succession crisis. That's not much of a solution. He knew nothing of his mother; Eddard Stark would not talk of her. Yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that he could almost see her face. In his dreams, she was beautiful, and highborn, and her eyes were kind. The next mention of "beautiful" in the text after this quote is this: “Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her.” “Lyanna was beautiful,” Arya said, startled. Everybody said so. It was not a thing that was ever said of Arya. Nice. :thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greymoon Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Ned told Robert that his claim was better than Jon Arryn's or his. That means both Jon Arryn or Ned had a considerable claim to even the IT. Having the largest amount of legitimate Targ blood was an argument in the early Great Councils but with Maegor's dismissal, that argument lost its importance even during the Targaryen reign. In the upcoming Great Council, those who support Dany's surviving child will emphasize this argument but their rivals will not be committed to it. By the right of conquest Ned and Jon Arryn had as much claim as Robert....The Iron Throne is Aegon's legacy, Aegon and his sister's created it, no Andal or First Man has any legitimate claim to it -- unless, by right of conquest. Ned and Jon conquered the IT just as much as Robert. Ned's sister was kidnapped, his father and brother murdered, which in a way, makes Ned's 'right to rebel' legitimate, more legitimate than Roberts even. Jon Arryn was the one to call the banners. Ned and Jon Arryn won the battle of the Bells (Robert says so) while Robert was busy getting a child of some whore. Robert was the leading figure of the rebellion, but he wasn't the master mind behind it. He had the charisma to make a good leader though, and when came the time to claim the throne, he also had the proper blood ties. Robert won the throne by right of conquest, but legitimated his rule, by right of blood. Robert's only greater claim was through his grandmother; and because he killed Rhaegar on the field, I suppose. Jon Arryn had a claim by right of conquest, until the crown passed to Robert at which point Ned and Jon Arryn both forfeited whatever claim they had. Since Arryn never claimed the crown for himself, Sweet Robin can't possibly have a claim on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhaenys_Targaryen Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I think the Targaryen throne will be burned with the RK in the end. So, the Lords will not be selecting someone to the Targaryen throne. In fact, Targaryens are overthrown for nearly two decades and if Dany succeeds to restore the Targaryens, there will not be a Great Council at all. If there will be a Great Council, then Dany will not be able to restore the Targaryens.If Targaryen blood won't matter in the end, why use having or not having it as an argument? Ned told Robert that his claim was better than Jon Arryn's or his. That means both Jon Arryn or Ned had a considerable claim to even the IT. All three had the right of conquest. Only Robert could add a blood claim to it.Having the largest amount of legitimate Targ blood was an argument in the early Great Councils but with Maegor's dismissal, that argument lost its importance even during the Targaryen reign. And even in the early days, that argument did not always win. Great Council or no.Maegor's situation was an exception. The king had just been killed in a rebellion, leaving he kingdom in slight chaos. The Blackfyre Pretenders were still eying Westeros from Across the Narrow Sea. This GC did not make their decision based on blood, but on which king could help the realm best survive the troubles that were to come. Being a baby does not help your chances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Han Snow Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Pardon my intrusion, but has this synopsis, that as far as I can tell originates from German Amazon for TWOW, been discussed here? I think it is genuine, and despite what some think of Dany and her arc, I always expected exactly what this synopsis says. Continuing the most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings Winter has come at last and no man can say whether it will ever go again. The Wall is broken, the cold dead legions are coming south, and the people of the Seven Kingdoms turn to their queen to protect them. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning what Robert Baratheon learned before her; that it is one thing to win a throne and quite another to sit on one. Before she can hope to defeat the Others, Dany knows she must unite the broken realm behind her. Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands. The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany’s fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final climactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Pardon my intrusion, but has this synopsis, that as far as I can tell originates from German Amazon for TWOW, been discussed here? I think it is genuine, and despite what some think of Dany and her arc, I always expected exactly what this synopsis says. 1. If this synopsis is true, we need at least 5 more books to conclude the series. 2. Honestly, this synopsis makes no sense because it degrades every single character in favor of Dany. Jon and many other characters will have to do pretty much nothing until Dany wins her Dance and decides to deal with the Others. 3. Let us not fool ourselves. Dany is the last person to lead the way to put the old blood feuds aside. Women do not forgive. Women do not forget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mithras Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 I think the first thing to realize about this new Great Council is that no one will be selecting the best Targaryen heir to the Targaryen throne. Well, except those who support the surviving Targaryen heirs anyway. In fact, the only surviving Targaryen heir will be Dany’s possible child and if Dany becomes the undisputed queen of Westeros before she dies, that child will have the upper hand against everyone. The upcoming GC will be mainly gathered because the majority of the Lords will need a monarch to rule them and keep the king’s peace as they recover from their wounds. So, the process will resemble a combination of a kingsmoot and the election of the LC. At such an event, the regent of Sweetrobin and his supporters will absolutely make his claim. Actually, I can make a list of possible claimants and their pros/cons. 1. Sweetrobin (assuming he survives) Pros: He is an Arryn. His ancestors ruled as Great Kings for nearly 6000 years. He is among the highest nobility. On his mother side, he has very close ties to Riverlands. So far, his power was not diminished and the Vale might survive the Second Dance/War for Dawn with relatively less losses. So, his House during the Great Council will probably be among the most powerful ones. Cons: He is not directly related to recent monarchs. He is known as a sickly boy. He will not be an adult during the Great Council. Along with other child/baby claimants, depending on a regent will be considered as a con for him. He is not the loveliest boy out there. In the future, he is not likely to do something important to prove his worth to the Realm. House Arryn will be a part of the Second Dance, which means those they fought against might hold grievances towards them. 2. Shireen (assuming she survives) Pros: She will be the legitimate heir to House Baratheon. Cons: She is a girl (I know but hey, this is Westeros). She is marked with greyscale. That whoreson called LF produced a disgusting tale about her. She is not an adult, which means dependency on regents. In the future, she is not likely to do something important to prove her worth to the Realm. House Baratheon will have been a part of every conflict and so they will have made lots of enemies. She will also suffer from the bad PR of Stannis. 3. Edric Storm (assuming he survives) Pros: He is the bastard of a king with a noble motehr. He has the gift of Robert which makes it easy to make friends and inspire loyalty. He might prove himself in the Second Dance. He will not suffer from the bad PR of Stannis. Cons: He is a bastard. He will likely make enemies during the Second Dance. 4. Dany’s trueborn child (assuming he/she exists) Pros: He/she is Dany’s child. Cons: He/she is Dany’s child. 5. Trystane Martell (assuming he survives) Pros: He is from House Martell. He has legitimate Targaryen ancestry. Cons: He is Dornish. In the future, he is not likely to do something important to prove his worth to the Realm. House Martell will be one of the primary sides of the Second Dance, which means they will make many bitter foes. The price of fighting against Dany will be very costly. So, the power of House Martell will be very weak during the GC. 6. Gerion Lannister (assuming he lives and survives) Pros: He is a Lannister. He has the stuff of kings. Cons: He is a Lannister. He will be at an old age which may cast doubts on whether he will live long enough to have trueborn heirs and raise them. He will take part in the Second Dance on Dany’s side. He lived in exile as the Corsair King. Being a pirate will not help his PR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Just as a point of information this particular synopsis introduced by Han above has appeared before and appears to relate not to the forthcoming Winds of Winter but the one planned as the third volume in the original trilogy and should therefore be read in sequence with the larger synopsis revealed a couple of weeks ago, in which Danaerys' invasion of Westeros was scheduled to take place in book 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Cold Fingers Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Had to share this...made me laugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 Having a Great Council choose a new king is what most would call anti-climatic writing... GRRM was screwing with you guys on this thread when he suggested it... There is nothing bitter-sweet about about a Great Council... Except it's not at all what Jon would want. But he takes it because love vs duty, Jon chooses. So in that regard it's very bittersweet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted February 17, 2015 Author Share Posted February 17, 2015 Double post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Having a Great Council choose a new king is what most would call anti-climatic writing... GRRM was screwing with you guys on this thread when he suggested it... There is nothing bitter-sweet about about a Great Council... Nothing you say makes any sense at all. The king being chosen by a great council and all of its uncertainty and politicking is a hell of a lot more climactic than the king or queen being chosen because they are next in line. And the 'bitter sweet' ending would have nothing to do with the Great Council- that's not an 'ending'. The 'ending' would be the actual fucking ending and not just one plotline amongst many. Admit it- the only reason you would find such a turn of events 'anti-climactic' is because is doesn't fit the fantasy of events you have in your head. Just because something doesn't happen the way you want it to happen doesn't make it 'anti-climactic'...it makes it different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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