R+L=J v.132

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Idk why we're talking about weather but in Australia its a warm 29 degrees Celsius which I found to be 84 on the Fahrenheit scale if that's right

That is quite a temperate day. Very warm, but not yet hot. Depends on the UV index too.

[BearQueen87]

...what foreshadows Jaime's death, exactly? At least in that way.

Also not seeing how Bran can be a kingmaker to anyone. Just telling Jon isn't enough to be a kingmaker- you have to be able to put him in the throne. I don't really see Davos doing anything if the sort for Jon...Stannis is his king.

Sam, I agree...he could have a part in it, the same way he manipulated the LC election. Plus he is highborn and extremely intelligent in such matters.

But I think we have foreshadowing that Jaime could very well be a kingmaker, too. The dream about Rhaegar and protecting his children, as well as the references to kingmakers of the past, and Jaime's determination to fill the pages of the books...I don't think his only deed will be choking Cersei to death.

I agree with this. Sam makes sense. Bran is attached to a tree and not likely to be able to influence anything or anyone south of the once-standing-wall.

[Moondancer]

Who'd form the Great Council?

Lannisters? Martells? The boy of Vale? Tyrells (actually I can see room here, with Tyrells trying to get in good graces with dragons again)?

Stannis for SL? Edmure for the Tully family, if he survives?

Our great houses have depleted.

Possibly. But Jon never got to witness Cersei's corruption of Jaime from up close..

Neither does he know that Jaime once tried to kill Bran.

Perhaps Jaime will eventually reveal such, if he and Jon do end up on the same team, but only in the end, with Jaime accepting the Wall as his punishment.. for all we know, Jaime could become LC there as well!

Heh, Jaime's corruption by Cersei... We cannot relegate personal responsibility.

The point of connection between Jon and Jaime is in the fact that 17 year old Jon has learnt that man's honour is irrelevant if the kingdom's welfare is at stake and Jaime hasn't.

Jaime craves that kind of underplayed acceptance.

[BearQueen87]

Who'd form the Great Council?

Lannisters? Martells? The boy of Vale? Tyrells (actually I can see room here, with Tyrells trying to get in good graces with dragons again)?

Stannis for SL? Edmure for the Tully family, if he survives?

Our great houses have depleted.

If he's still alive, I could see Tyrion calling it.

[Greymoon]

The point of the GC is to select the king when there is no immediate-acceptable heir or a strong claimant, which would certainly not be the case if fAegon, Stannis or Dany stay alive in the end.

Or when the heir/claimants are being contested. Neither Dany, fAegon nor Stannis are prefect candidates, people are bound to find a reason to dismiss the one or the other. Dany because she is a woman at the head of an army of former slaves and foreigners and has no true claim for as long as a son of Rhaegar survives...Aegon because his claim might look fishy to some, especially if he has the Golden Company baking him....and Stannis has adopted a foreign, minority religion and burns people alive for their crimes.

[BearQueen87]

Or when the heir/claimants are being contested. Neither Dany, fAegon nor Stannis are prefect candidates, people are bound to find a reason to dismiss the one or the other. Dany because she is a woman at the head of an army of former slaves and foreigners and has no true claim for as long as a son of Rhaegar survives...Aegon because his claim might look fishy to some, especially if he has the Golden Company baking him....and Stannis has adopted a foreign, minority religion and burns people alive for their crimes.

Yes that was my thinking as well. There needs to be at least one other candidate at this GC who has a reasonable claim but is being questioned. Dany seems far more likely than fAegon who I don't believe will live through WOW. Stannis might survive to aDoS but it seems unlikely given the "slayer of lies" prophecy. It can't be *just* Jon though. That would make for a very silly and short chapter. Jon is presented as candidate because 1) son of Rhaegar Targaryen 2) son of Lyanna Stark 3) cousin to the last King in the North 4) LC of the NW during the Second Long Night (at least part of it) 5) Dragon rider 6) Did "the thing" Why even bother with a GC at that point when Jon's the only one and he has 1-6 in his corner.

If there are no other candidates with support and logical reasons for still being candidates then having the GC at all would be silly. Hence, there must be at least one other.

[Moondancer]

If he's still alive, I could see Tyrion calling it.

Demon monkey or not, he's still highborn and have enough wits about him to actually play it favourably. Yeah, that's a nice idea.

[Greymoon]

And guess who will influence to push for the Great Council, the Kingslayer turned Kingmaker, Jaime Lannister. He will cross his arc with Jon's (Ice & Fire, balance), he is neither the best or the worst, "Like him (Criston Cole, a Kingmaker)."

(Jaime) “Good enough. He died, but his king lived. A lot of brave men have worn the white cloak. Most have been forgotten.”

(Loras) “Most deserve to be forgotten. The heroes will always be remembered. The best.”

“The best and the worst.” So one of us (him and Loras) is like to live in song (Jon's song of Ice and Fire). “And a few who were a bit of both. Like him.” He tapped the page he had been reading.

“Who?” Ser Loras craned his head around to see. “Ten black pellets on a scarlet field. I do not know those arms.”

“They belonged to Criston Cole, who served the first Viserys and the second Aegon.” Jaime closed the White Book. “They called him Kingmaker.”

This could also point to Loras as Kingmaker, since we are dealing with a dialogue. Loras is part of that conversation, and in a way, he is a mirror image of Jaime, a young Jaime. Loras is young, talented, ambitious and dreams of glory. Like Jaime was once young, talented, ambitious and dreamed of glory. Both have known a great love and sworn themselves to the KG in the name of that love. Jaime became the Kingslayer, his counterpart, the best to his worst (or the worst to his best?) is the Kingmaker.

Loras wears three roses on his sigil. Roses, blue roses, are associated to Lyanna and Jon. Three, like the three headed dragon. The Tyrells wanted Renly to be King with Margaery as his Queen. They made a king once before, why not a second time?

The rumors about Jon's parentage might spread before Jon is freed of his vows. If the Tyrells turn their backs on the Lannisters (which is bound to happen after Cersei's blunder) they'll be shunned by other claimants for having supported the enemy and turned cloak. Stannis does not require another wife and his sense of justice would prevent him from marrying Margaery even if Selyse was dead.... The Tyrells are unlikely to want to ally themselves with him in any case.... and fAegon is counting on marrying Dany, and if not Dany, Arianne (or Sansa) are better candidates for him than Margaery the Black Widow -- especially if he aims at gaining the support of the faith, and considering her tarnished reputation.

The situation would be different with Jon. 1) because Jon himself has a reputation, and this is unlikely to change after his 'recuperation'. He's a bastard, a half-wildling, a warg, a turncloak. His bastardy will still be in question, even if someone produces a legitimate marriage contract...wargs are feared, wildling's are considered savages... 2) because he'd be a 'beggar King' and have no real choice himself in marriage alliances and couldn't travel that route of his own. 3) because his Night's Watch experience will have taught him pragmatism and to see beyond appearances/prejudice (in most case, not counting Selyse.).

....Sam might also meddle. He is a Tarly and while he and his father do not get along, House Tarly is one one the strongest houses in the reach, and sworn to House Tyrell.... If Oldtown is taken by Iron borns, Samwell is conveniently placed in proximity of Leo Tyrell. Would Leo Tyrell abandon Samwell Tarly, knowing the boy is son of Randyll Tarly, one of the Tyrells most important banner-man? Plus, they knew each other during childhood. [Moryn Tyrell, commands the city watch of Oldtwon. He would evacuate his son, surely? possible Sam-Randyll reunion in the next book? Near Highgarden? Sam convincing the Tyrells that Jon is a capable leader?]

The Tyrells are also related to the Hightowers, through Alerie Hightower, Mace's wife, mother of Loras and Margaery. Criston Cole supported Aegon II, who was the son of Alicent Hightower.

Question:

Can a Great Council be called only for matters concerning the succession of the Iron Throne? That's the only cases we've seen so far, but so far, there hadn't really been the case of independent dominions from the Iron Throne.... What prevents anyone, from calling a Great Council concerning the succession of Robb's Kingdom?

The Boltons and Frey's may have 'reconquered' it back, but since the legitimacy of Tommen is in question and the conquest was in fact an act of sabotage and treachery, I expect that the Lannister hold on Northern dominion can easily be contested by others, even non-northmen. (even if the lands are still defacto under Lannister rule). Thus in theory, I think a great council could be called for the northern succession. It wouldn't be an all encompassing great council, and wouldn't be recognized by the IT or Stannis, as legitimate. But it would serve the purpose of uniting the north and riverlands behind one, in their eyes legitimate, ruler.

For the north, chances are we'll have Sansa press a claim, Manderly pressing a claim on behalf of Rickon, and others, preferring Jon as per King Robb's decree.

EDIT: clarity

ETA: There are a few explicit parallels between Ser Jaime and Ser Loras: in aSoS:

"He's me, Jaime realized suddenly. I am speaking to myself, as I was, all cocksure arrogance and empty chivalry. This is what it does to you, to be too good too young." p. 923 US paperback.

another direct comparison between Loras and Jaime, followed by the Tyrells being made both kingslayers and kingmakers.

"Be that as it may. Lady Olenna was not about to let Joff harm her precious darling granddaughter, but unlike she also realized that under all his flowers and finery, Ser Loras is as hot-tempered as Jaime Lannister. Toss Joffrey, Margaery, and Loras in a pot, and you've got the makings for Kingslayer stew. The old woman understood something else as well. Her son was determined to make Margaery a queen, and for that he needed a king....but he did not need Joffrey.[...]" Littlefinger to Sansa, p. 936 a SoS, US paperback.

[Ser Creighton]

I am posting from my xbox just wanted to see if I could and I can, so I did. Actually works really well, though typing is apain. Also trying different ways to access the site. There is this strange glitch happening to random members including me, trying to figure it out.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Yes that was my thinking as well. There needs to be at least one other candidate at this GC who has a reasonable claim but is being questioned. Dany seems far more likely than fAegon who I don't believe will live through WOW. Stannis might survive to aDoS but it seems unlikely given the "slayer of lies" prophecy. It can't be *just* Jon though. That would make for a very silly and short chapter. Jon is presented as candidate because 1) son of Rhaegar Targaryen 2) son of Lyanna Stark 3) cousin to the last King in the North 4) LC of the NW during the Second Long Night (at least part of it) 5) Dragon rider 6) Did "the thing" Why even bother with a GC at that point when Jon's the only one and he has 1-6 in his corner.

If there are no other candidates with support and logical reasons for still being candidates then having the GC at all would be silly. Hence, there must be at least one other.

I think there is another possibility to 2 competing claims--there might be no real claims at all. If (f)Aegon, Dany and Stannis (and Shireen) are all dead, a GC might be called because there are no real candidates to rule and someone needs to be chosen. Jon might then emerge as the consensus candidate given his actions in the Battle for the Dawn 2.0. At that point, the truth of his heritage might come out which would reduce any objections about putting a "bastard" on the throne. It also might be sort of like the Egg CG in which Egg was not really considered initially but the other potential candidates (Daeron's daughter, Aerion's son and Aemon) were eliminated from contention as being unacceptable (or unavailable re Aemon). So then Egg was selected as the only real available candidate--after being put forth by Aemon.

[BearQueen87]

I think there is another possibility to 2 competing claims--there might be no real claims at all. If (f)Aegon, Dany and Stannis (and Shireen) are all dead, a GC might be called because there are no real candidates to rule and someone needs to be chosen. Jon might then emerge as the consensus candidate given his actions in the Battle for the Dawn 2.0. At that point, the truth of his heritage might come out which would reduce any objections about putting a "bastard" on the throne. It also might be sort of like the Egg CG in which Egg was not really considered initially but the other potential candidates (Daeron's daughter, Aerion's son and Aemon) were eliminated from contention as being unacceptable (or unavailable re Aemon). So then Egg was selected as the only real available candidate--after being put forth by Aemon.

I could see that, I guess. But if there are no claims by the end of the War for the Dawn, do we think the Lords of Westeros would calla GC to find themselves a new King? They aren't the most agreeable bunch. We'd go from 0 claims to 3546572 claims. But if there is a small handful of claims--2 or 3-- that each have significant support, then the Lords have to chose between those 2 or 3 or risk descent into war once again, then calling for the GC makes sense.

[RumHam]

It also might be sort of like the Egg CG in which Egg was not really considered initially but the other potential candidates (Daeron's daughter, Aerion's son and Aemon) were eliminated from contention as being unacceptable (or unavailable re Aemon). So then Egg was selected as the only real available candidate--after being put forth by Aemon.

That's not really how it went down. Aemon didn't put forth anybody, Egg was the obvious choice. It's just that some lords didn't like/trust him so an offer was made to Aemon quietly and he turned it down. There's no indication that Maegor was disqualified, he just didn't have the votes.

[JonSnow4President]

I am posting from my xbox just wanted to see if I could and I can, so I did. Actually works really well, though typing is apain. Also trying different ways to access the site. There is this strange glitch happening to random members including me, trying to figure it out.

Get one of those typing pads for it. Easier than typing on a phone with one of those

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I just came across this theory few weeks ago. Wow, I'd never think of this but hey, the arguments and evidences are really really persuasive to me. It would somehow all make more sense. I really need to re-read the first book. ;)

Reread, explore this (R+L=J) theory, and enjoy it for all it's worth. Then question it. Reread some more. And look for better explanations. This theory is fun but it's not satisfactory in the end, unless you believe everything you're told.

[Ser Leftwich]

Reread, explore this (R+L=J) theory, and enjoy it for all it's worth. Then question it. Reread some more. And look for better explanations. This theory is fun but it's not satisfactory in the end, unless you believe everything you're told.

Edited for accuracy.

ETA: How can it "not be satisfactory in the end," when we have not yet reached the end? Lame.

[BearQueen87]

Reread, explore this (R+L=J) theory, and enjoy it for all it's worth. Then question it. Reread some more. And look for better explanations. This theory is fun but it's not satisfactory in the end, unless you believe everything you're told.

Or it is satisfactory unless you are deliberately going out of your way to look for something else because you don't like the conclusion.

[Consigliere]

It's funny when people say RLJ is unsatisfactory and then put forth claims that Roose Bolton, Tywin Lannister or Howland Reed are more likely candidates for Jon's father.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

...How can it "not be satisfactory in the end," when we have not yet reached the end? Lame.

As a reader I find it unsatisfactory even now, having reached the end of the available story. And I predict it will not be satisfactory when Martin reaches the end of these books.

Or it is satisfactory unless you are deliberately going out of your way to look for something else because you don't like the conclusion.

Sure. I wouldn't disagree with that. It may feel satisfactory unless and until you make a point of questioning it.

It's funny when people say RLJ is unsatisfactory and then put forth claims that Roose Bolton, Tywin Lannister or Howland Reed are more likely candidates for Jon's father.

Is it? You're correct that I have examined many characters that you and others here would never consider as potential candidates for Jon Snow's father. But how else is one to test and challenge a theory?

[BearQueen87]

As a reader I find it unsatisfactory even now, having reached the end of the available story. And I predict it will not be satisfactory when Martin reaches the end of these books.

Edited the most important.

Your satisfaction is not required for GRRM to have made/will make RLJ true.

[Consigliere]

Is it? You're correct that I have examined many characters that you and others here would never consider as potential candidates for Jon Snow's father. But how else is one to test and challenge a theory?

Yeah, it is actually. Especially when people make these claims but do not actually lay out their evidence and thought process. Instead they roll out the argument that there is no proof L&R ever had sex, no proof they were on the same continent etc. yet remain seemingly oblivious to the fact that these "counter-arguments" hold true for their alternatives as well.