Walking Dead Season 5 (No Comic Spoilers) Part 4

[Dronuspk]

If you're around it enough you start to pick up on cues of domestic violence without necessarily being conscious of them. There's certainly a heavy dose of White Knight Syndrome is Rick's attraction to Jessie and his motivation for disliking Pete, but there's also a huge amount of his desire to be a cop again - in a world that actually needs one - driving his choices. We see that going all the way back to him shooting the guy from Terriers a few seasons ago in the bar. Cops in this Mad Max version of the world just have different choices to make than he used to.

And he's crazy.

Reference the fight, I think those were pretty realistic depictions of a person who is incredibly tough, and because of that chose to go 1-on-1 against people he was giving 5 and 6" up to, respectively. Real life contains very few untouchable ninjas, and when the other guy knows how to handle himself at all, everyone's going to wind up hurt.

Internet nerds aren't used to seeing fights portrayed realistically. That's the problem ^_^

[Free Northman Reborn]

I really need to take the plunge and read the comics, to see how close the TV Rick Grimes resembles the real Rick Grimes in the comic book.

My impression from random pictures I've seen from the comic covers seems to be that the Rick in the comics has a much harsher, more physical look to him, than the vibe that Andrew Lincoln brings to the screen.

Kind of like Jon Snow in the books reads like a grim, Christian Bale character type, while Kit Harrington in the Show doesn't come close to pulling that off.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Well actually, no Dronupstk.

Real fights usually don't last very long. It is usually over in a few seconds. My issue is not with how fights are portrayed in the story. We know they are unrealistic.

[Dronuspk]

Your issue is very hard to follow then lol.

As far as the comic goes, Rick is quite a bit different. You should definitely read them.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Dronupsk

The fights are portrayed for dramatic effect. That is accepted.

Let's just say that Glenn had it quite a bit easier against Deanna's young and fit son, than Rick had it against an ageing, alcoholic, couch sitting doctor.

[Crixus]

I agree with the White Knight syndrome mentioned on the last page: creepy. In fact, the entire 'would you do this for anyone' made me ill. It was just... off.

I kinda did expect Rick to destroy Pete in seconds, tbh. Perhaps the show-runners made a deliberate choice? Maybe they wanted to show us Rick was not, in fact, all powerful etc.?

Nah.

[Dronuspk]

I'm beginning to think people refuse to read when someone answers them. Sigh.

Also, if you think the Glenn-Aiden fight and the Pete-Rick fight are the same category, you are mistaken.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I just don't see what a non-creepy outcome could be from this whole saga.

So Pete proves himself to be a bad guy, and Rick eventually kills him. Then what? Does he shack up with the wife of the guy he killed and they raise a nice happy family together as if he hadn't had designs on her before her husband was dead? No way is that a feasible outcome. Basically, Pete has to be revealed as a good guy after all, and Jessie the bad person, or else both Pete and Jessie have to die.

On the flipside, if Pete dies, and Rick then realizes he was wrong to desire Jessie, and they just all live as friends in Alexandria thereafter, that will be creepy too.

The whole thing is a monumental stuff up. Unless there is a big twist, or a whole lot of dying in the next episode, it isn't going to have a viable outcome.

[Dronuspk]

I think a lot of people are going to die in the finale. A lot. That will definitely brush that fight under the rug.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Look, about the fight. I think most of it was dramatic license to depict it as two men losing all reason and letting their primal urges take over, fighting over a mate.

So it was all about the animalistic nature of the contest, requiring a lot of blood and bruising on both sides. Nevermind that the antagonist was never set up as a particularly challenging opponent.

It was dramatic license, as are most of the one on one fights Rick gets involved in. All about the drama, whether it be Shane, the Governor or whoever.

[Dronuspk]

Actually on the re-read, I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make here.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Dronupstk

I think where you miss the picture, is that you are determined to see this as Rick coming in to rescue a damsel in distress. Where I see it as Rick fighting another guy over a mate.

There really is no disputing Rick's designs on her, back to when he first arrived in Alexandria. So Rick's motivations are not as pure as you like to see it. And the fight is intended to portray part of that.

[Dronuspk]

No sir, you are the one missing the picture. Consistently, in fact.

The fight started because Pete attacked him. This is the last time I'm going to explain this so please follow carefully. He tried to remove him without a fight, he is a police officer. That is what Deanna "made him". He was keeping the peace by removing a child and woman beater from their household. His intentions may have been assisted by the fact he does like this girl, but I'm really not sure why this is the topic of the conversation at all. He's still a child beater and woman beater that was being allowed to STAY in the house with them with no retribution. You think Rick would have done anything if the guy was nice and had a good relationship with his wife? No. Stop being stupid.

As far as the fight goes itself, since you've seemingly completely dropped that, he got punched twice and pushed into the wall. At this point he warned Pete one last time. The next thing you see is Pete flying through the window. Then proceeded to be choked out. I don't see how anyone is looking down on Rick for allowing the guy ample opportunity to stop, but instead he was punching him in the face.

His rant at the end sounded crazy, because his adrenaline was pumping and he was getting emotional. Have you ever been in a fight where you were defending people you care about? Carol, one of his most trusted advisors now, pushed this course of action. The wife made it clear she WANTED help but thought she wasn't going to receive it because she's been having to deal with this the entire time they've been in there. Not to mention the fact Noah was JUST killed by an incompetent Alexandrian. This was all floating around in his head while Pete attacked him. Everything he said was true, the ONLY mistake he made was pointing the gun at them, but even then, he is technically the police officer there and he did his best to maintain the peace. It's not his fault everyone else is trying so hard to have a normal life that they aren't pursuing the right and most importantly safest course of action.

Deanne is NOT a good wartime leader, as I've said before. And this world is WAR. With Zombies, with the apparently endless groups of evil humans, hell they even had a run in with wild dogs. Rick is though.

Michonne did what she felt she had to do, because remember she did see him bite Joe's neck out to defend them. She was afraid he might actually start shooting people to defend "his people".

It doesn't matter if Rick's motivations are "pure". They were right.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Let's calm down, Dronupsk

You are ignoring the facts.

You said yourself you are just ignoring Rick's own, direct statement as to his intentions. He specifically said he wouldn't do this for anyone else. You respond to that by saying you don't care that he said that. Well, sorry, but you have to care about it, because he said it. Categorically.

So he was not just fulfilling his policeman duties. He was acting based on his own feelings for Jessie.

Deanna being a bad leader has nothing to do with this. We all know that she is a terrible leader.

However, Rick himself stated that he cares about his group, first and foremost. He does not regard the Alexandrites as part of his group. Hence, he doesn't really care whether they beat each other up or not. Jessie herself asked why he was risking his group's safety to protect one of the Alexandrites.

His answer was clear. He wasn't doing it for just any Alexandrite. He was doing it for her. And we all know why. Because he wants her.

[Dronuspk]

Let's calm down, Dronupsk

You are ignoring the facts.

You said yourself you are just ignoring Rick's own, direct statement as to his intentions. He specifically said he wouldn't do this for anyone else. You respond to that by saying you don't care that he said that. Well, sorry, but you have to care about it, because he said it. Categorically.

So he was not just fulfilling his policeman duties. He was acting based on his own feelings for Jessie.

Deanna being a bad leader has nothing to do with this. We all know that she is a terrible leader.

However, Rick himself stated that he cares about his group, first and foremost. He does not regard the Alexandrites as part of his group. Hence, he doesn't really care whether they beat each other up or not. Jessie herself asked why he was risking his group's safety to protect one of the Alexandrites.

His answer was clear. He wasn't doing it for just any Alexandrite. He was doing it for her. And we all know why. Because he wants her.

Lol. Yes, when he said that I took it he meant many things with that one statement. Clearly that went right over your head.

So because he doesn't consider the Alexandrians part of his group, he's going to let them beat innocent women and children? Are you soft?

I'm not even sure how this is the topic now, I thought we were first talking about rather or not Rick was in the right at the end, then we were talking about Rick being a poor fighter because he was bloodied up. I can barely keep track with everything you're wrong about :(

Oh also, I'm completely calm. See that well-typed, relatively organized post I made just for you? I'm trying to help you understand what happened, but it seems you're so fixated on you being right, that doesn't matter.

[Free Northman Reborn]

We are discussing multiple topics here. The discussion is fluid.

Rick was wrong in the way he did things. He should have done things calmly. The fact that he went apeshit didn't inspire confidence in anyone.

And his motivations were selfish. He wanted to kill Pete long before he knew about the rumored abuse. Because he wants Jessie.

Please note, I am a big Rick fan. Or I was. But the writers have destroyed his character in the last 4 episodes. The Rick we see now is unrecognizable from the Rick we got to know over the previous 4 and a half seasons. It is cringeworthy, to see what they have done with his character.

Not because he despises Deanna's pacifist ways. I despise them too. But because of the whole Jessie plotline. That is everything Rick despised in Shane. Remember how Shane beat Carol's husband to a bloody pulp when he started down his psycho character path? Remember Shane's speech to the group before he unlocked the barn that Herschelle kept his zombies in?

Rick is mimicking Shane exactly. And I hate that they thought this would make for an interesting story. It does not. It just makes Rick less likeable, and more easily resplaceable on the show. Where before he was untouchable, and the heart of the show, he is now just another character in the cast.

Maybe they want to wean us off him, in preparation for replacing him. At which point I will stop watching the show. Damn you, writers.

[Dronuspk]

We are discussing multiple topics here. The discussion is fluid.

Rick was wrong in the way he did things. He should have done things calmly. The fact that he went apeshit didn't inspire confidence in anyone.

And his motivations were selfish. He wanted to kill Pete long before he knew about the rumored abuse. Because he wants Jessie.

Please note, I am a big Rick fan. Or I was. But the writers have destroyed his character in the last 4 episodes. The Rick we see now is unrecognizable from the Rick we got to know over the previous 4 and a half seasons. It is cringeworthy, to see what they have done with his character.

Not because he despises Deanna's pacifist ways. I despise them too. But because of the whole Jessie plotline. That is everything Rick despised in Shane. Remember how Shane beat Carol's husband to a bloody pulp when he started down his psycho character path? Remember Shane's speech to the group before he unlocked the barn that Herschelle kept his zombies in?

Rick is mimicking Shane exactly. And I hate that they thought this would make for an interesting story. It does not. It just makes Rick less likeable, and more easily resplaceable on the show. Where before he was untouchable, and the heart of the show, he is now just another character in the cast.

Maybe they want to wean us off him, in preparation for replacing him. At which point I will stop watching the show. Damn you, writers.

1) He went apeshit crazy because he was ATTACKED.

2) It only showed he got bad vibes from him before the abuse was learned, not that he wanted to kill him.

3) That's your opinion on Rick's character, I for one think he has only gotten better. (especially since season 3, *shudders*)

4) I do remember Shane beating Carol's husband. I also remember that being a pretty popular decision. Ed was a monster. That was one of Shane's crowning moments in my opinion.

5) Rick isn't trying to be likable, he's a leader of a post apocalyptic survivor group, that are currently being endangered by idiots. He is NOTHING like Shane, or Governor, or any of them. They are sharing no traits, only because he's getting a bit more to the point doesn't mean he's turning evil. Governor would have taken the Alexandrians hostage immediately upon entering, and Shane would have just taken over.

They won't kill Rick off, though if they do I would appreciate the boldness.

[The Mance]

Eh I feel i typed enough

Great post.

:crying:

Rick Grimes is not your bitch

In fact, from the first when he got all up in Deanna's face about Pete, I knew he'd fuck it all up.

In his defense he went into that conversation not knowing that Deanna was already aware of the Pete situation. That she did know, and was allowing it to happen, ratchets up the level of complication exponentially. She's gone from a naive but well-intentioned leader, to a complicit, abuse-enabling, bully, so fuck her and her incompetent son.

Rick started the fight in officer-mode. He tried to prevent it from happening at all, continued trying to de-escalate even after it happened, and only began trying to actually hurt Pete when all hell had broken loose.

I'd go further and say that Rick started that whole encounter in officer mode. After his talk with Jessie in the garage, Rick glances at some peaceful Alexandrians and then at Deanna (I think that was Deanna reading her book by the wall) before going back into the house to resolve the situation in a peaceful way. He starts by presenting Jessie with information that he hopes will empower her to confront Pete herself. And whatever Rick's motivations are for caring about the situation in the first place, when Pete walks in, he waits for Jessie to say her piece. And when that fails he continues trying to deescalate right up until the point where Pete throws himself through a plate glass window (lol I saw the whole thing officer!).

But seriously, I really think we saw Rick trying his level best to do things Deanna's way, and against his better judgment. It certainly wasn't Rick's way, or the way that the violent raving madman that some are saying he is would have done it. And again, I think he knew that it would come to a literal knock-down drag-out in the street. Back when Carol said, "you're going to have to kill him," this is what she meant. Not that Rick should just go and kill Pete because thats what needs to happen, but that that is what any attempts at resolving the situation are going to lead to. She was declaring the inevitable, not advising a course of action.

Remember how Shane beat Carol's husband to a bloody pulp when he started down his psycho character path? Remember Shane's speech to the group before he unlocked the barn that Herschelle kept his zombies in?

Rick is mimicking Shane exactly.

More excellent Rick/Shanes parallels. I really think that is what we are being shown, that Rick has become Shane. And I'm not convinced that that is entirely a bad thing, at least not yet. Hershel's barn is an excellent example. For all of its inelegant brutality, it needed to happen. And not just that it literally needed to happen because walkers, but that Hershel needed to see it, and the group needed to do it, for the sake of closure, and awakening to the realities of the world. And for all of their disgust at how Shane went about forcing the situation, I don't think that the group disagreed that it was the right thing to do. If Rick has become Shane then Pete is Alexandria's barn full of walkers.

The problem with Shane is that he got to that place disturbingly fast, and I wonder where it would have led to. Would he have found a level of ruthless brutality that worked for him and his companions, or would he have continued sliding down into darkness like the Termites or the Governor. It could be that if he was still alive he'd be off somewhere eating the flesh from the bodies of the heads in the aquariums that he claimed from his hospital.

edited: for spel gooder

[Free Northman Reborn]

The Mance

Good post.

I can see how the Rick becoming Shane transformation is dramatic fodder for the writer-types that have to come up with character arcs for the Show. But personally, I find it boring, and a hamfisted attempt to bludgeon us over the head with a massive chunk of irony.

Why are those the only two choices confronting a leader in the post-apocalypse world? Why must you inevitably go down either the Shane route or the Rick route? Why can't you just accept reality, harden up, and deal with each situation on its merits, like a battlefield commander would in war?

Insane, emotional outpourings to bemused crowds are not the inevitable requirement of leadership in the apocalypse. Both Shane and Rick just happened to be mentally fragile individuals, who did not have suitable personality types to deal with the harsh realities of the zombie apocalypse and remain sane at the same time.

Now, before any such accusation of "claim to macho-ness" is made, let me be the first to say that I would not cope well with a zombie apocalypse. But that's why I would not be the leader of a group in such a situation. But I would certainly want to be the right hand man and confidant of such a strong leader.

The problem with the Show, in my view, is that it forced the likes of Rick and Shane into leadership positions which neither of them are suited for. That was fine while Rick was the default leader of a small group of survivors on the move. But once you start gathering more people together, with more leadership choices available, mentally fragile Rick should start falling short in the leadership comparison game.

The Show just has a habit of not showing any truly capable leader of any group encountered thus far. They all are either insane (Governor, Shane, Rick at times), evil (Gareth from Terminus, Joe from the Claimers), pacifist fantacists (Deanna and farm Herschell) or indecisive and idealistic (early Rick).

Early Rick was fine and understandable, when the expectation was that he would grow into a better leader over time. Insane Rick after Lori died was a huge setback and raised serious questionmarks over his suitability to lead in times of stress. But when it appeared to be a temporary thing - a kind of a Rubicon he had to cross, well, we could kind of pass over it.

But the fact that he has now again regressed into some kind of PTSD state of mind makes it clear that he doesn't have what it takes. Which is a pity, given how much time we have invested in his growth path.

[Crixus]

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/03/22/walking-dead-star-andrew-lincoln-talks-epic-fight-scene