Walking Dead Season 5 (No Comic Spoilers) Part 4

[S John]

I... what? Sometimes I wonder if there's another Walking Dead show on television with similarly named characters that I don't know about.

In the last year of his life Rick Grimes has:

1) been forced to kill his best friend who was trying to kill him

2) found out his wife died in child birth and his pre-teen son had to shoot her in the head before she came back as a zombie

3) put down his gun to try to improve life in other ways, just to see his efforts turn on him and make sick/kill a bunch of people via swine flu

4) have his home destroyed by a mad man with a tank

5) watched his mentor and adviser get his head cut off while trying to talk down said mad man with a tank

6) was comatose for a couple days while his son had to survive for both of them

7) almost had to watch his son and two friends get beaten, raped and then murdered

8) found a sanctuary only to discover they were going to eat him

9) had said cannibals who survived follow him and partially eat one of his members

10) had his rescue plan for Beth shot down and watched her get shot in the head

11) spent a month or two traveling and nearly starving/dehydrating to death

Well put, I had a similar thought pattern wrt the Vietnam / WW2 combat comparison. Not too diminish the horrors of those things, but Rick has experienced things at least as hellish AND has done it with his two kids in tow which would significantly add to his stress level. The tight laced, sure headed military dude doesn't have his infant daughter with him on the front lines - Rick does.

Just one or two items on that list in a lifetime would break many people or drive them to the brink. When you consider what Rick has experienced in a short time I think he has done alright in terms of keeping it together. I don't see him as a villain at all, despite his outburst and despite the fact that he has done some pretty terrible things himself. I do see the parallels with Shane, though, and I don't think that is by accident. But when all is said and done, I think Rick will turn out to be who we thought he was. You don't have to be perfect to be a good leader.

[S John]

I feel like the program is manipulating me to tune in again to see what happens next.

You really think TWD would do something like that? :P

[MisterOJ]

I understand why some would offer up the Rick and Shane comparisons. But I feel like the folks that are like, "Rick has turned into Shane," have totally forgotten the incident with Otis.

That is the one thing that will forever separate the two. Rick would never go there.

[The Mance]

And as sheriff it was Rick's job to keep the violence as restricted as possible.

And, again, I've laid out how I think Rick was trying to do that. That Pete showed up and decided to attack Rick is not Rick's fault. His drawing his gun on Deanna's crew is a little murkier, but not completely indefensible.

From Rick's perspective he has been about his duties as the communities appointed Sheriff. Duties that he had been trying to carry out in a peaceful manner in compliance with Deanna's prohibition on violence despite his warnings and predictions. He is then attacked and forced to defend himself in a fight that carries out into the street where only the most violent part of the exchange is witnessed, absent the context of his peaceful attempts at resolution inside the house.

And Rick only draws his gun in defense when some of Alexandria's men begin to approach him for who knows what reason. Are they going to attack him for having fought with Pete? Do they mean to punish him? Why? He has every reason to believe he hasn't done anything wrong, so why should he submit to their ill-informed authority?

Sure, we are informed enough here.

No, all we know are the considerations, and all we can do is speculate about the weight that Deanna gives those considerations. As I said, it may be a simple matter of math for Deanna. We don't know.

Er yeah, no. Nowhere near the same calculation as taking and keeping slaves. Not even in the same ballpark.

Well its true that we don't see Alexandria actively capturing slaves. And Jessie does apparently have more freedom to remove herself from her situation than anyone at the hospital. But in the sense that both Dawn and Deanna are countenancing the abuse of people for the sake of placating other "more valuable" people, I think its a fair comparison.

[Kindly Old Man]

I... what? Sometimes I wonder if there's another Walking Dead show on television with similarly named characters that I don't know about.

In the last year of his life Rick Grimes has:

1) been forced to kill his best friend who was trying to kill him

2) found out his wife died in child birth and his pre-teen son had to shoot her in the head before she came back as a zombie

3) put down his gun to try to improve life in other ways, just to see his efforts turn on him and make sick/kill a bunch of people via swine flu

4) have his home destroyed by a mad man with a tank

5) watched his mentor and adviser get his head cut off while trying to talk down said mad man with a tank

6) was comatose for a couple days while his son had to survive for both of them

7) almost had to watch his son and two friends get beaten, raped and then murdered

8) found a sanctuary only to discover they were going to eat him

9) had said cannibals who survived follow him and partially eat one of his members

10) had his rescue plan for Beth shot down and watched her get shot in the head

11) spent a month or two traveling and nearly starving/dehydrating to death

But yeah, some guys in Vietnam didn't crack from circumstances that are nothing like that, and we know all they came home perfectly healthy citizens ready to rejoin society, so Rick Grimes is a pussy for having severe PTSD and letting it affect his decisions.

Serious question here: do you only watch this show to take notes on things to bitch about?

People in-show who've had similar things happen to them and seem to be handling it better: Glenn, Michonne, Maggie, Darryl, and that's just in our small group of main characters. I think any one of them would be a better leader than Rick, who just seems to become more creepy and unstable with each episode.

[The BlackBear]

I understand why some would offer up the Rick and Shane comparisons. But I feel like the folks that are like, "Rick has turned into Shane," have totally forgotten the incident with Otis.

That is the one thing that will forever separate the two. Rick would never go there.

I'm not convinced of that. Shane needed to get that medicine to save Carls life. Otis was the one who shot Carl in the first place. Carl is probably the only person Rick would do that for, but I think he would if he had to.

[MisterOJ]

I'm not convinced of that. Shane needed to get that medicine to save Carls life. Otis was the one who shot Carl in the first place. Carl is probably the only person Rick would do that for, but I think he would if he had to.

Maybe he would, but we've not seen anything on screen that would indicate that he would go to such lengths.

Plus, I'm of the opinion that Shane shot Otis to save his own skin. Saving Carl was a secondary motive.

[l2 0 5 5]

Maybe he would, but we've not seen anything on screen that would indicate that he would go to such lengths.

Plus, I'm of the opinion that Shane shot Otis to save his own skin. Saving Carl was a secondary motive.

Absolutely.

[First of My Name]

Rick was losing it. Michonne just shut him off for a bit.

I was surprised by the intro sequence, with NIN´s song. I´m a big hardcore fan of NIN. That was grand.

I hated that song :P It distracted from what was on-screen. Did Deanna play that because it was Aiden's favorite type of music?

[Lord Syv Aldlark]

Sure other characters have had similar events but none have been the leader before. The leader always carries the burden

[Elaena Targaryen]

Don't get me wrong Rick did make some mistakes here and is deserving of criticism but imo Deanna is the one that has really fucked this up. Since Rick's issues have already been touched on let's look at Deanna.

From what I saw, Deanna was doing what a leader does in tough circumstances: weighing evils and choosing the lesser. Pete, after all, is their only physician, and if they lose his cooperation they're in trouble. That doesn't mean he should be given carte blanche to do whatever he wants, but it certainly means the situation is not cut and dry.

So just ignore it and supply the abusive drunk with alcohol because that always works?

That being said, I think there's a lot of space between allowing the abuse to continue and executing the abuser, as Rick suggested. Given enough time, one could probably come up with a solution that both stops the abuse and keeps the doctor, and it seems Deanna failed on that count. Also, can we focus on the fact that Rick was calling for Deanna to institute the death penalty as a replacement for exile? That's an audacious request, if you ask me.

Oh absolutely, I agree completely.

Rick completely shocked me, but not concerning the execution suggestion. I hoped he would take his concerns to Deanna first but I expected him to just handle it on his own so I was surprised. Deanna fucked up here, her appointed constable comes to her concerned regarding violence in her community, to the point he explains that he feels the only resolution is execution and she just shrugs it off. That's an extreme request, that's a big red flag. It's clear she needed to intervene in a big way and it's clear a plan needed to be made right away. She should have gone with Rick to resolve this as soon as possible to control the outcome. Rick still showed plenty more restraint than I thought he would, and in the end he didn't kill Pete, so Deanna got threw to him a little bit.

I was also a little surprised that Rick waited for Jessie's ok. I think if Rick had handcuff's, back-up, a makeshift jail or something things may not have gone so far. Which Deanna did not assist with any resolution, she just let Rick leave to force a separation without any aid. Rick and Deanna both hold the blame here since they both know Rick was going to intervene and they should have come up with a better plan together. Deanna should have gone or Rick should have brought Michonne or something, anything. But in the end this is Deanna's community, the people she has accepted responsibility for and she fucked up. She presents herself as a no nonsense woman but this whole situation could have been avoided on many fronts.

Not saying it's acceptable to allow the guy to beat his wife and kid, but Pete is a surgeon. He's an extremely valuable resource that needs to be handled with kid gloves, and with input from the rest of the community. Rick's reaction might be understandable, but he did not handle it well. Throwing the communities only healthcare provider through a window is not acceptable. It never should've got to that point.

We haven't seen too much of the lives of the Alexandrians so who knows for sure, but Pete seems bored. Pete is not saving lives on a daily basis but instead gets drunk and beats his family. I feel it would have been a good idea to encourage Pete to teach, not only would he have something positive to do daily but he would be passing along his valuable knowledge which I think is crucial. It sure is a better idea than supplying a violent drunk with alcohol and sticking you head in the sand.

[Mother of Dragons]

Rick wasn't doing it because a man was beating his wife. He was doing it because he has the hots for Jessie. As he said, he wouldn't do it for anyone else.

That makes him a pretty low type of character in my eyes.

I was so sure she'd say no after hearing that, after all her talk about being married. The storyline was dumb because they never show any real evidence of her being beaten. Whether cuts/bruises or her using make up to conceal it- more realistic. We just have Carol jumping to conclusions.

I believe he did, but the battered story line was poorly executed. Should have culminated more slowly, too. Maybe hear yelling at night.

[Mother of Dragons]

Internet nerds aren't used to seeing fights portrayed realistically. That's the problem ^_^

Plenty of dudes have never fought before, including good looking ones who are strong and manly :) not just internet nerds. Women I know wouldn't like a guy who gets in fights.

[Mother of Dragons]

I really need to take the plunge and read the comics, to see how close the TV Rick Grimes resembles the real Rick Grimes in the comic book.

My impression from random pictures I've seen from the comic covers seems to be that the Rick in the comics has a much harsher, more physical look to him, than the vibe that Andrew Lincoln brings to the screen.

Kind of like Jon Snow in the books reads like a grim, Christian Bale character type, while Kit Harrington in the Show doesn't come close to pulling that off.

In the spoiler thread, they posted a link of the comic panel from the fight scene. I don't recognize Rick, but the panel and final scene were exactly alike. You should take a look.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

We haven't seen too much of the lives of the Alexandrians so who knows for sure, but Pete seems bored. Pete is not saving lives on a daily basis but instead gets drunk and beats his family. I feel it would have been a good idea to encourage Pete to teach, not only would he have something positive to do daily but he would be passing along his valuable knowledge which I think is crucial. It sure is a better idea than supplying a violent drunk with alcohol and sticking you head in the sand.

Yes, absolutely. Some sort of halfway point between putting your head in the sand and putting your only physician headfirst through a window. :lol:

[Larry of the Lawn]

I understand why some would offer up the Rick and Shane comparisons. But I feel like the folks that are like, "Rick has turned into Shane," have totally forgotten the incident with Otis.

That is the one thing that will forever separate the two. Rick would never go there.

Man this thread moves fast. So much this, I came here to post the same thing. Rick might be becoming more 'Shane-like' but he's not the same guy. Shane probably would have just killed Dale if he had the chance because he didn't like him. He would leave someone behind to save his own ass- he'd be a better comparison to Aiden or Nicholas as far as looking out for others goes. Shane was in it for himself-- and whoever he was fucking at the time. So he wanted to keep Carl alive to to keep Lori happy. Rick is not on that level. He gives a shit about anyone that isn't a piece of shit. He has a larger spectrum of people he'd put himself on the line for than Shane.

eta: i think Rick told Jessie he wouldn't do this for just anyone because it was the only way she'd agree to it. I actually thought that was Rick's best acted part of the episode. Jessie needed to here that someone cared about her, not just about keeping the community intact. Because keeping the community intact was Deanna's excuse for allowing the abuse to continue. She needed to hear that he wasn't just doing his job.

[TrackerNeil]

Never mind. I'm not getting into any further debate about what is a tough decision. Carry on.

[Disturber of Peace]

Despite the wording, the context of Jessie's question for Rick was focused on "will you admit you have feelings for me?" rather than "you would not interfere in domestic violence if I was not involved, right?".

And so Rick answered it accordingly.

[The BlackBear]

I hated that song :P It distracted from what was on-screen. Did Deanna play that because it was Aiden's favorite type of music?

The CD was labelled 'Run Mix' so was likely what was in the van (and therefore one of the last things Aiden listened to before he died.) NIN was just the first track, it presumably also had the Knife Party track we got last episode.

[dbunting]

Does Ricks answer to Jessie show that he isn't insane, and he does think more like Deanna than we think? If Jessie had said no, would Rick have left, knowing she is getting beaten? He said he was doing it because it was her, so if the lady at the food/gun store was getting abused, he would let it continue if her husband was "needed"? That part of it disturbs me more than anything else. Right is right and wrong is wrong.

Deanna and the group should have gotten rid of the alcohol or cut him off at a minimum, to see if that would help the situation. Seems like their way of dealing with everything is to look the other way and hope it gets better. Oh, you are getting beaten by your husband, eh ok, see you at the pot luck tomorrow! Oh damn, you fell down and a walker is coming toward you, see ya, hope you make it but if not, oh well.

Looking forward to the next episode to get things back on track and get some clarity on "W"