Germanwings Flight 4U9525 - suspected murder-suicide

[Relic]

There does seem to have been a descent button, one that I assume was pre-programmed for the descent into Dusseldorf.

I think you will see a new FAA order, that a bathroom be added to cockpits, so pilots never have to leave the cockpit. It will likely mean two rows of seats have to be removed on one side. After 9/11 airlines had to re-inforce the cockpit doors, so that terrorists could not break in. An airline expert said you wouldn't be able to get in even if you attacked the door with a fire ax for an hour, and bullets won't penetrate the door.

The ability to lock out the world was added so that if the pilot or co-pilot stepped out and was seized, the door could be locked from the cockpit and nothing could be done from outside. There's a keypad entry system, but it can be, and was, locked as well.

Yes, the above should certainly be the case. I hope it gets phased in sooner rather than later. What's the point of having that door if a pilot needs to open it everytime they need to take a piss? Better to just have a bathroom in the cockpit.

This is a terrible tragedy, made worse by the possibility it was a suicide. This is a growing trend,sadly. Murder by suicide is occurring at staggering rates in African and Middle Eastern countries. The number of deaths from suicide bombers increased 94% in 2014 with over 3,400 casualties.

On that note, I feel terrible for the people on this plane, their families, and their loved ones, but I have to ask myself why a story like this gets so much more airtime than a suicide bomber in a mosque killing 100 people.

[Biglose]

@Relic

Because Airplanes are supposed to be safe. We are not used to it. Espacially western airplanes.

@In general

Well, many airlines now change their rules. They demand that at least 2 persons have to be in the cockpit at all times.

[all swedes are racist]

@Relic

Because Airplanes are supposed to be safe. We are not used to it. Espacially western airplanes.

What do you mean? Airplanes are supposed to be safe... as opposed to mosques?

[Kikajon]

@Relic imho suicide bombers give up their lives on order to accomplish an hoky mission, it is terrorism and we can "understand" it.

Then we can understand depressed people that commit suicide.

But a depressed man that decides to commit suicide in that way? That is hard to understand and to accept.

People want to hear more about it to try and have some sort of explanation. The sheer facts just hurts one's mind. Too hard to understand it in some way

[HexMachina]

No. Not always. It's easy to fake being happy. Or to at least hide how miserable you are. There are tell-tale signs of someone who's got it really bad though; unwashed, tired looking ect - but not for all severely depressed individuals.

This goes past just standard depression though, if this truly was a murder-suicide which seems very likely with all the facts then fuck this guy.

I'm so disturbed by this. 149 passengers dead because of one man.

Hmm, I agree with you, mostly. But I have had the unfortunate experience of knowing people who have attempted to (and in one case, succeeded) commit suicide. Of the 4, only one of them was in a clear suicidal state. The others all suffered from depression, but weren't in the "tell-tale" stages yet; they were going about their lives as normal, and I guess they just snapped.

Point being, of course, that psychological evaluations are not necessarily the answer as to how this could have been prevented, because they are fallible (which I think you were saying too?). I agree with some of the other proposals, like the bathroom in the cockpit, and having it a mandatory requirement in all aircraft to always have two people in the cabin at any one time.

[Gears of the Beast]

Am I the only one that's kind of disturbed when people glibly wish for someone to rot in hell? Regardless of the mental state of the co-pilot which you know nothing about, why the fuck would you prescribe infinite suffering for a finite crime? People throw it around way too often.

[Theda Baratheon]

Hmm, I agree with you, mostly. But I have had the unfortunate experience of knowing people who have attempted to (and in one case, succeeded) commit suicide. Of the 4, only one of them was in a clear suicidal state. The others all suffered from depression, but weren't in the "tell-tale" stages yet; they were going about their lives as normal, and I guess they just snapped.

Point being, of course, that psychological evaluations are not necessarily the answer as to how this could have been prevented, because they are fallible (which I think you were saying too?). I agree with some of the other proposals, like the bathroom in the cockpit, and having it a mandatory requirement in all aircraft to always have two people in the cabin at any one time.

Yeah; not for all people. Even at my absolute, absolute worst - when I am in public I'm at least always clean, and fine looking.

@Relic imho suicide bombers give up their lives on order to accomplish an hoky mission, it is terrorism and we can "understand" it.

Then we can understand depressed people that commit suicide.

But a depressed man that decides to commit suicide in that way? That is hard to understand and to accept.

People want to hear more about it to try and have some sort of explanation. The sheer facts just hurts one's mind. Too hard to understand it in some way

If it does turn out he did this deliberately, it goes far beyond this just being a depressed man. He would have to be incredibly fucking twisted.

[Dr. Pepper]

Yeah; not for all people. Even at my absolute, absolute worst - when I am in public I'm at least always clean, and fine looking.

If it does turn out he did this deliberately, it goes far beyond this just being a depressed man. He would have to be incredibly fucking twisted.

Yeah, my non professional unnecessary opinion based on limited facts of this alleged crime is that there was some psychosis going on. Might not have even been depressed psychosis. Could have been some mania. May have even just been acute psychosis brought on by some recent event. But the lack of changes in breathing makes me imagine that he was not involved in reality at the time.

Though, I agree with Gears of Beast, I have a hard time offering up extremely hateful language for someone who may have been mentally disturbed. It's a tragedy of course, but I think malicious intent matters and with the things we know now (which is extremely limited), I'm not sure there was sane malicious intent involved.

[Castel]

Am I the only one that's kind of disturbed when people glibly wish for someone to rot in hell? Regardless of the mental state of the co-pilot which you know nothing about, why the fuck would you prescribe infinite suffering for a finite crime? People throw it around way too often.

It's almost as if people thinking about losing their family out of the blue to the senseless actions of some single madman (at best) makes them emotional. That or it's just a cultural mainstay.

I tend to be quite detached when it comes to these sorts of distant tragedies but I suppose not everyone is like that.

Though, I agree with Gears of Beast, I have a hard time offering up extremely hateful language for someone who may have been mentally disturbed. It's a tragedy of course, but I think malicious intent matters and with the things we know now (which is extremely limited), I'm not sure there was sane malicious intent involved.

Can a crime be so heinous that the presumption of blame is placed on the perpetrator?

Like, how crazy do you have to be before you're no longer responsible. I always think there's a bit of convenient line-drawing here. If you kill yourself no one can call you weak because you're sick. Kill your whole family and I doubt as many people are going to come out and judge people who hate you because you were ill (unless you were also cutting up your nipples as an offering to Galtos, Lord of Spaagos as well of course)

Is that a legitimate divide? Can we say "well, he was crazy but not crazy enough to know better"? Or are people just squeamish about "letting them off the hook" so to speak.

[Dr. Pepper]

It's almost as if people thinking about losing their family out of the blue to the senseless actions of some single madman (at best) makes them emotional. That or it's just a cultural mainstay.

I tend to be quite detached when it comes to these sorts of distant tragedies but I suppose not everyone is like that.

Can a crime be so heinous that the presumption of blame is placed on the perpetrator?

Like, how crazy do you have to be before you're no longer responsible. I always think there's a bit of convenient line-drawing here. If you kill yourself no one can call you weak because you're sick. Kill your whole family and I doubt as many people are going to come out and judge people who hate you because you were ill (unless you were also cutting up your nipples as an offering to Galtos, Lord of Spaagos as well of course)

Is that a legitimate divide? Can we say "well, he was crazy but not crazy enough to know better"? Or are people just squeamish about "letting them off the hook" so to speak.

Eh, I was talking about extremely hateful language. Like those who are saying he should rot in hell are basically saying that they think this person should have been tortured and that his family also deserves punishment for life. This isn't to say that I think this sort of reaction is ever justified. I just find people speaking in this way a lot more difficult to shrug off when it involves someone allegedly mentally disturbed.

That being said, I do think people are often too squeamish to react in more moderate ways, as though there is a certain script that must be followed. I'll admit, though, that I often think that a lot of people are faking their reactions because I have little ability to naturally react in extreme ways. I have to fake it myself in certain situations.

[Guest]

I confess I was not familiar with this term murder by suicide.

I am not referring to what I believe is called murder-suicide, but what I read in Relic's post made me think there's a distinction, or am I over-analyzing?

The murder-suicide I'm familiar with is where you are pretty bent on causing harm to others, usually those that you know, and then just ending it all for yourself. But is there another phenomenon where you off yourself but are more meh about others?

[Shryke]

On that note, I feel terrible for the people on this plane, their families, and their loved ones, but I have to ask myself why a story like this gets so much more airtime than a suicide bomber in a mosque killing 100 people.

Because it makes so little sense and involves a person in a position of great responsibility doing something horrible and unexpected.

A suicide bombing, for all it's horror, is just another kind of attack. That kind of thing we understand and are on some level used to.

This is like an imam suicide bombing his own mosque. You'd hear about that.

[Fragile Bird]

I confess I was not familiar with this term murder by suicide.

I am not referring to what I believe is called murder-suicide, but what I read in Relic's post made me think there's a distinction, or am I over-analyzing?

The murder-suicide I'm familiar with is where you are pretty bent on causing harm to others, usually those that you know, and then just ending it all for yourself. But is there another phenomenon where you off yourself but are more meh about others?

Trisky, it seems to me that the term murder-suicide has been commonly used to describe the situation where, for example, a man kills his wife/ex-wife/girlfriend, her parents and other family members, and then kills himself. It might be just one person he kills, it might be half a dozen, but typically there is some kind of relationship involved, and an order. First the killer murders his victim/s, then he kills himself. Columbine would be described as murder-suicide.

Murder by suicide seems to be used to describe the situation where parties are killed by someone who has no connection to those he or she kills, the suicide bomber who goes to the marketplace, the pilot who crashes a plane full of passengers deliberately. The former happens much more often than the latter. In this situation, the act of suicide is itself the act that triggers the murders. The pilot doesn't kill the passengers first and then himself, the suicide bomber doesn't kill the people at the restaurant first and then himself, his act of suicide creates the act of murder.

One can imagine a situation where the two are combined (a suicide bomber that targets his family, perhaps?) but it doesn't happen very often. I think there have been some suspicious small plane crashes, where the pilot has his family members in the plane that he's flying and crashes.

[Shryke]

I think the difference is rather then a murder-suicide is a murder + a suicide, wherein the perpetrator murders people and then kills him (or occasionally her) self.

Murder by suicide is when someone kills themselves and takes a bunch of people with them via the method they commit suicide.

[Fragile Bird]

So they are just reporting on the evening news the rumour that German police have found "something significant" in their investigation into the co-pilot. But it seems to be something that needs to be tested, and there has been an offer by American investigators to help with the testing.

Presumably we will hear more tomorrow.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I'm confused.

Are there people so non-judgemental that they feel a mass murderer of 150 people should NOT rot in hell? (Assuming he did indeed do what is suspected.)

Interesting.

[klemenko]

Adding the front lavatory to the flight deck by moving the cockpit door toward the back of the plane would be a major modification of aircraft design almost impossible to implement on the existing fleet.

[Relic]

Adding the front lavatory to the flight deck by moving the cockpit door toward the back of the plane would be a major modification of aircraft design almost impossible to implement on the existing fleet.

Mandatory adult diapers for all pilots! And a pay hike to make up for the indignity.

[Guest]

OK - Those explanations makes sense. This one is so weird though if that's what it was. Surreal. More info to come, presumably.

[Shryke]

It's much simpler to just enforce "2 people in the cockpit at all times" rules.