James Arryn Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 It's like facebook, boring and makes you hate people who participate.Who doesn't like pictures of babies cuddling with kittens in front of majestic sunsets near food on a plate with ironic captions? John Doe, that's who. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 I will one day, I promise. It's just so long and french. :DJe me souviens!Foure toi, autocorrect! L'audace, toujour l'audace! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 Je me souviens!Foure toi, autocorrect! L'audace, toujour l'audace! ... Alouette gentille alouette. Pretty much all I got. :blushing: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 ... Alouette gentille alouette. Pretty much all I got. :blushing:Mdr! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerevanin Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 I dislike it for Daenerys suddenly changing the direction competely. Until she reaches Astapor, all she wants is to get to Westeros and she did everything she could to do so. Then she arrives to Astapor and in a second she decides that it will be much better to get thousand of followers and to plunder several cities. OK, I can give her that although I never really understood why she turned against Yunkai and Meereen (excluding her desire to free some slaves, which was slightly pointless because murders of slavers in 3 cities won't wipe out slavery everywhere). But why the hell did she stayed in Meereen? She maybe wanted to maintain peace at least in once of the cities whose culture and order she destroyed but she must be aware of the fact that in the moment she leaves it will turn into chaos. So either she can stay in Meereen forever or she can try to conquer Westeros, I can't really see how she could have both.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mal Malenkirk Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 What I truly dislike about these chapters is her loony tune whirlwind campaign from Astapor to Mereen. The way she 'swindled' the good masters of Astapor was silly as an episode of Bugs Bunny vs Elmer Fudge. Then she she crushes Yunkai because one mercenary kills his partner and defects to her side out of lust while another lets his troops get drunk just before the battle which is of course a very common occurence... in cartoons. I almost threw my book through a window when she took Meereen in one day because they basically forgot to lock the back door. Thankfully, her story arc exited the Loony Tunes mode after that and things resumed with the same degree of 'realism' as the rest of the serie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 ...or does, like nibbling. Never forget nibbling.No one likes a glutton. Especially when food is scarce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Señor de la Tormenta Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 because is a dumb story line, where she keeps getting plot gifts while she fights cartoonish enemies that keep getting more and more stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordStoneheart Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Back in my day, plot gifts were called "plot." The first chapter began with a plot gift, so that means the whole story must be shit, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nictarion Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Back in my day, plot gifts were called "plot." The first chapter began with a plot gift, so that means the whole story must be shit, right?:thumbsup: If I never see the phrases "plot gift/armor", "too predictable", "mustache twirling cartoon villains", on this forum again it would be too soon. Sadly people love to parrot that shit though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasta11 Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 I would argue that Viserys, MMD, Sons of the Harpy, and Green Grace all have some characteristics beyond "mustache twirling villain" the same as Thorne, Slynt, and Rattleshirt. (Marsh is more just annoying bureaucrat then a bad guy). Well first, Jon having flat villains in his arc doesn't mean it's OK for Dany to have them. And it's not like Jon has no other antagonists. Mance and Thormund for a start, hell even Ygritte to some degree. There's definitely far more grey in the relationship between Jon and the wildlings than between Dany and the slavers. And a lot of that is because the wildlings aren't written as irredeemable puppy-eating assholes to a man. Second, The Sons are just proactive evil slavers and the GG is part of them. Viserys and MMD are far better antagonists, which is a big part of why I said Dany's story was at its best in AGOT. After that she gets literally no antagonist worth the name, and her arc is spent between boring the hell out of me (ACOK, most of ADWD) or being handed easy wins so that the plot can continue (ASOS). And yes, before it's said, other characters also got such preferential tratment, but not a whole book of it. As JonCon's Beard said, Dany being bored is OK if it serves the story. But when that boredom transfers to the reader, that is a problem. It's a problem that is somewhat recurrent in AFFC and ADWD, but my guess is that it's even worse with Dany because not a lot of readers care about Essos at all, and they are just waiting for her to get her royal ass to Westeros so that she can interact with characters and settings that are actually interesting. I mean, even if we just take Jon's ADWD (which I like much more), he doesn't actually do that much. But he is in a setting most readers know and love, and has great interactions with loads of interesting characters so it's not a chore to read. Cripes, he's not even in Essos, and he manages to interact with a cooler Essosi than Dany does (Tycho Nestoris). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victarion Chainbreaker Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 I'd read a novel about her nibbling madeleines and reminiscing on her childhood in Dorne. Fixed that, because we haven't done this for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Sapna Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 It was just the shock change in pace. For the first three books Dany had a purpose. IMO Dany's storyline has got worse and worse. Heck I didn't even mind Qarth.In the first book she was separate from the rest of the characters but that didn't matter. The backstory was built up around her. She was the mad kings daughter and she was going to take the throne back from Robert Baratheon. Then in the second book she was stuck in Qarth which was a bit of a slower pace but that was okay. Her dragons would grow and she was in the market for a navy. Later she gained an army, crushing cities on her way to the Iron throne. Then inexplicably to the reader she decides to stop. Jorah who's been with her from the start is exiled. So her only link to Westeros is Selmy. Some of the characters have some complexity but generally it's a bunch of bizarre colourful characters. The reader has read through so many events that her original quest is not only forgotten but is impossible. Everyone major who was involved in her family's death is long dead due to the actions of others. Her original supporting cast has been replaced by a ragtag bunch with no ties to Westeros. With the increasing POV's and locations back in Westeros she seems to basically be in a spin off. This was originally my favourite storyline. Then just look at the villains. The soldiers chained together, the army on stilts. The sixteen year old general that breeds warrior slaves. It's like a bad acid dream. I've seen people compare Dany to the wall in terms of separation from the main story and I do get frustrated with the wall story to. Mainly because the white walkers still haven't made much of an impact after 5 books, same as the dragons. However Jons been at the wall from the start. Some of the supporting characters have been there from the start. Also when finally we see another character go to the wall it's Stannis and Mel. Characters who have been an important part of the story, not some prince from Dorne who nobody cares for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheWeepingKnight Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 AGAIN, I don't understand the complaints about how over the top the style of the slavers were (the hair, the stilts), as if we've never seen this in our world before. They are a decadent and frivilous culture. We've seen such cultures have ridiculous vanities and over the top shit before in history, with the Ghiscari's exacerbated by the fact they had no military concerns/enemies prior to Daenerys, with the only possible threat being trade allies. And I further do not the understand the complaint of them being all evil cartoons. The only one who I can remember being remotely construed into that is the idiot who Daenerys bartered with for the Unsullied in Astapor... and he was hardly ridiculous. Oh, everything is built on the foundations of something heinous like slavery? They use bloodshed in the fighting pits for entertainment? Their elite commit vile acts like nailing children to crosses? We've all seen such characteristics time and time again in cultures and empires throughout history so I fail to see what is ridiculous and what "cartoonishly" evil about them. Someone explain, as I admit I may not be remembering every detail. Though this once again goes back to my point that the slavers, their culture and Meereenese characters were never to focus or point but apart of an arc with Daenerys' firmly at its centre and about her and the impact Slaver's Bay will have. Her arc and how she goes forward in TWOW I think will like make Meereen utterly crucial with such developments being either impossible or otherwise poorly written without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Primalsplit Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 AGAIN, I don't understand the complaints about how over the top the style of the slavers were (the hair, the stilts), as if we've never seen this in our world before. They are a decadent and frivilous culture. We've seen such cultures have ridiculous vanities and over the top shit before in history, with the Ghiscari's exacerbated by the fact they had no military concerns/enemies prior to Daenerys, with the only possible threat being trade allies. And I further do not the understand the complaint of them being all evil cartoons. The only one who I can remember being remotely construed into that is the idiot who Daenerys bartered with for the Unsullied in Astapor... and he was hardly ridiculous. Oh, everything is built on the foundations of something heinous like slavery? They use bloodshed in the fighting pits for entertainment? Their elite commit vile acts like nailing children to crosses? We've all seen such characteristics time and time again in cultures and empires throughout history so I fail to see what is ridiculous and what "cartoonishly" evil about them. Someone explain, as I admit I may not be remembering every detail. Though this once again goes back to my point that the slavers, their culture and Meereenese characters were never to focus or point but apart of an arc with Daenerys' firmly at its centre and about her and the impact Slaver's Bay will have. Her arc and how she goes forward in TWOW I think will like make Meereen utterly crucial with such developments being either impossible or otherwise poorly written without it. Have we seen such characteristics in cultures and empires throughout the history? What examples do you have in mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bironic Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 I've never heard of an army on stilts in real history. Nor an army of chained slaves. Nor an army that changed command in a daily routine. There are a lot of (sub-) cultures with strange hairstyles though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Well first, Jon having flat villains in his arc doesn't mean it's OK for Dany to have them. The same goes for the other way. . And it's not like Jon has no other antagonists. Mance and Thormund for a start, hell even Ygritte to some degree. There's definitely far more grey in the relationship between Jon and the wildlings than between Dany and the slavers. And a lot of that is because the wildlings aren't written as irredeemable puppy-eating assholes to a man. While, I like Mance and Tormund in my opinion they are pretty shit as antagonists. Especially, seeing how Jon wins them over just quickly as Dany wins over the Yukani Mercenaries. Shit, Jon betrays the Wildlings' entire plan to overtake the Wall and helps lead the defense against them in ASOS yet in ADWD Tormund and company are still all buddy buddy with Jon. Of course, except the ones that are portrayed as the irredeemable puppy-eating assholes such as the Weeper and Lord of Skulls. Second, The Sons are just proactive evil slavers and the GG is part of them. That doesn't make them flat or uninteresting villains necessarily, especially compared the Jon's main enemies of ADWD aka the raping, flaying, Stark-betraying Bolton buddies of Ramsay and Roose. Viserys and MMD are far better antagonists, which is a big part of why I said Dany's story was at its best in AGOT. After that she gets literally no antagonist worth the name, and her arc is spent between boring the hell out of me (ACOK, most of ADWD) or being handed easy wins so that the plot can continue (ASOS). And yes, before it's said, other characters also got such preferential tratment, but not a whole book of it. What antagonists does Jon really have? AGOT: The biggest antagonist he faces is an asshole teacher in Thorne, all while LC Mormont is basically kissing his ass. In ACOK arc is honestly no better the Dany's (at least she has interesting magic in hers) while in ASOS he has the wildlings go all derp on him thus allowing him on a secret mission because he told a lame story about why he turned. Only for the plot to bail out his ass twice to save him. It then pulls all stops to then place him in a leadership position that realistically shouldn't be his (while, also doing it in way to keep his hands clean. Then ADWD he is placed up against the asshole twins of Slynt and Thorne to allow him a quick "cool" moment before settling his main antagonist to be a bumbling pencil pushing bureaucrat (Marsh). Jon has had just as much preferential treatment as Dany if not more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northbound3.0 Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Ahh. Slaver's Bay. The place where A Song of Ice and Fire, went to die. The issue I have with the area, is not Dany. It's the location. Near as I can tell, other than Dany possibly going back to Essos to rule, after her time in Westeros; the location looks to have no impact on the overall end game.Dany had some great scenes in SB; HotU and the Pit being chief among them for me. The problem has always been the pace, post Clash. Even in Storm the pace, slowed greatly there and Dany's arc suffered because of it. I also felt this way about Tyrion and Martell's arcs, as well.The reason we now have these long wait times between books, a show that will finish before the books and the possibility of never seeing and ending in print; is because our beloved Martin got bogged down there and backed himself in to a corner...more so that any other area in the books. This is why, I dislike SB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northbound3.0 Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 Who doesn't like pictures of babies cuddling with kittens in front of majestic sunsets near food on a plate with ironic captions? John Doe, that's who.Don't forget the opportunity to "Check In," allowing any lunatic the ability to always know your current whereabouts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HosteenOsteen Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 But GRRM clearly chose that very remote location for a reason. He could have had her conquer Tyrosh or some place closer, but he did not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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