Question for all the Slaver's Bay storyline haters

[Dofs]

The only reason it became more interesting (for some readers) was because of Daznak's Pit... If Barristan had narrated the pre-Daznak's chapters, I doubt they would be any more interesting than what we got.

I don't think so. I feel that Barristan actually sees Meereenese as people, not as indistinguishable mass of no-names and, imo, that would have had carried to a reader as well.

[TheWeepingKnight]

The how. The show's double attack from North and South made actually 1000 x more sense. Mance had so many resources but he wasted them on attacking Castle Black from the North instead of sending tropes over the Wall.

Even if you deem that version superior (though it was utterly stupid when the siege/attack unfolded), that doesn't explain to the stupidity in book Mance's plan. Weaken Castle Black's garrison to green boys and old men (like 40 odd) by drawing all the fighters and rangers to two fronts at Eastwatch and the Shadow Tower so the attack from the South is much easier (and it wasn't intended to be a battle, but a butchery when the garrison slept), then have the gate opened. And the chapter following the failed South attack seems to indicate very, very little time passed before Mance arrived. Where is the stupidity in that plan?

[Minsc]

I am sorry, each of those characters as flat as they are, and I am not arguing against it, I am saying that it is whole new level of flatness when it comes to Dany's antagonists. Plus, Jon also has to deal with Stannis and Melisandre, add Mance and Roose, and you get much better picture...

The only manner in which Dany's antagonists are seriously worse is their names, otherwise Slynt (for example) is just as lame as any one in Slaver's Bay.

Stannis made Jon's chapters marginally better, however I would say that is no different then Selmy benefiting Dany's chapters. Also Roose is no more interesting then Green Grace.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Boredom was an unavoidable consequence of trying to convey Dany's feelings. In Dany's mind Meereen was a bland, shallow place with shallow, cartoonish characters that are indistinguishable from each other. Martin tried to make a reader feel the same. Obviously, when a reader feels that a place he reads about is uninteresting and bland with no characters to care about, he will be bored, that's unavoidable. But I have a feeling that Martin does not shy away from writing boring parts, if he feels that they are important. IMO, but as I see it, he tries to write a serious literature with a serious character study and he is not going to skip an important character development because it might be uninteresting. Maybe before he would, but not now when he feels that ASOIAF is his life works that he hopes will be remembered for generations to come.

Well I disagree, I don't even think it's a viable writing strategy and there is a reason that his POV narration is not (at all!) like “X rose at dawn and moved his bowels”, but focusing on the important parts on a character's "life".

In that sense, I think that Dany's Meereen chapters are somewhat out of focus.

[TheWeepingKnight]

The only manner in which Dany's antagonists are seriously worse is their names, otherwise Slynt (for example) is just as lame as any one in Slaver's Bay.

Stannis made Jon's chapters marginally better, however I would say that is no different then Selmy benefiting Dany's chapters. Also Roose is no more interesting then Green Grace.

Only to clairfy, as the way you are writing your comments one could construe it either way, is this your opinion or are you stating it in a dogmatic, written-in-stone-this-is-fucking-fact way?

Also, Christ, I though the hatred for the Ghis names was limited to only one user here...

[Hangover of the Morning]

I am sorry, each of those characters as flat as they are, and I am not arguing against it, I am saying that it is whole new level of flatness when it comes to Dany's antagonists. Plus, Jon also has to deal with Stannis and Melisandre, add Mance and Roose, and you get much better picture...

Pretty much this. Jon gets some plot gifts and deals with some incompetent antagonists but it's somewhat compensated by the fact that he interacts with lots of interesting and flashed out characters (Sam, Jeor, Aemon, Stannis, Mance etc.) and that his story is not set in vacuum but is part of everything else that is happening in Westeros.

And unlike the slavers, about whom we know absolutely nothing, we still understand and to a degree can sympathise with some of the flatfish villains in Jon's story.

- Thorne is at the Wall partly because of Jon's dad

- Slynt was nothing but a loyal servant to the crown and as a thank you was fucked up by them and sent to the Wall. He was promised the position of the LC but now has to serve under a turn-cloak, teenage, trator's bastard.

- March is not the most intelligent man but he's no evil and he's trying to do what he feels is the best for the Watch

....

[TheWeepingKnight]

And again, are you implying it is a flaw and failing of GRRM that antagonists such as Slynt, Thorne, etc. are rather flat when compared to the likes of Tywin, Littlefinger, etc?

[TheWeepingKnight]

Lemme guess, one of these "plot gifts" is Jon becoming the 998th Lord Commander?

[Minsc]

Only to clairfy, as the way you are writing your comments one could construe it either way, is this your opinion or are you stating it in a dogmatic, written-in-stone-this-is-fucking-fact way?

My opinion as the entertainment value of literature is always an opinion, just like the stance that Dany's Slaver Bay arc is boring is also an opinion.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I don't believe Meereen is boring, but... I remember that was one big criticism about Deathly Hallows and the whole camping trip. One thing is to portray the character as bored, and another one, is to bore the reader. So, while I don't consider it boring, Martin might have indeed, inadvertently, bored his readership.

[TheWeepingKnight]

I understand Meereen boring people (which is a very valid criticism), it is merely the claims that Daenerys' Meereen arc had absolutely no substance because of the personal boredom, and the even more bewildering claims, in my eyes, that there are no themes unifying the narratives in ADWD.

[Hangover of the Morning]

And again, are you implying it is a flaw and failing of GRRM that antagonists such as Slynt, Thorne, etc. are rather flat when compared to the likes of Tywin, Littlefinger, etc?

Is it addressed at me? I was arguing that Jon's antagonist are nowhere on par with Tywin or Varys (nor should they be) but they are far from flat compared to the Astapori/Yunkish/Meereeneese.

Jon's and Danny's storylines suffers from some of the same flaws, in ADwD in particular, but Jon wins by a mile because of the people around him and because the events at the Wall are integral to the overall story.

[Hangover of the Morning]

Even if you deem that version superior (though it was utterly stupid when the siege/attack unfolded), that doesn't explain to the stupidity in book Mance's plan. Weaken Castle Black's garrison to green boys and old men (like 40 odd) by drawing all the fighters and rangers to two fronts at Eastwatch and the Shadow Tower so the attack from the South is much easier (and it wasn't intended to be a battle, but a butchery when the garrison slept), then have the gate opened. And the chapter following the failed South attack seems to indicate very, very little time passed before Mance arrived. Where is the stupidity in that plan?

I am hazy on the details so I give you this one. However, I'd never understand why did Mance think that it was a good idea to sent Jon with Styr. There was quite a lot to loose should Jon betray them and very little to gain if he proved loyal.

[PatrickStormborn]

I don't think so. I feel that Barristan actually sees Meereenese as people, not as indistinguishable mass of no-names and, imo, that would have had carried to a reader as well.

Okay okay okay... Did you actually read the books? Because Barristan Selmy is an old white man who literally only cares about Westeros and doesn't care about Meereen in the slightest. I'm not even being hyperbolic - that is literally in the text. He's ignorant about Ghiscari culture (repeatedly calling Hizdahr "Your Grace", suggesting Dany replace the Fighting Pits with jousting, etc.), he's even more blind to foes than Daenerys, and the Sons of the Harpy killings grow completely out of control once he takes over.

Daenerys, on the other hand, actually marries one of the Ghiscari and even empathises with them. So you can keep feeling that Barristan sees the Meereenese as people, but it's not supported by the text. The only reason you feel that way is because Barristan's additional perspective makes the characters feel more multi-dimensional. But a direct comparison between Barristan and Dany's perspectives would demonstrate that he is the more ignorant character.

I don't believe Meereen is boring, but... I remember that was one big criticism about Deathly Hallows and the whole camping trip. One thing is to portray the character as bored, and another one, is to bore the reader. So, while I don't consider it boring, Martin might have indeed, inadvertently, bored his readership.

Great point. It's difficult to find that balance as a writer. Martin certainly could have conveyed Dany's frustration/boredom in fewer chapters... but that problem is systemic across both AFfC and ADwD.

Back to the DH comparison - I wonder how much reader frustration with the camping trip (and Meereen) is linked to the structure of the series? If the camping trip was not in the final book, for instance, would it have been more enjoyable for readers? Similarly, is the Meereenese knot more frustrating because it takes place in book 5 of 7?

[StannisForKing299AL]

I think its more because Dany is highlighted as the invading force, so we are waiting for her to invade. However, she's left us waiting 4 books for this to happen. So Mereen seems like somewhat of an empty plot. SEEMS. I'm not bashing it, since I don't know how George intends to play it. But if Dany up and leaves with Slavers bay in chaos (and lets face it, how does her army win this battle without heavy losses?) then it'll just be frustrating that we had to waste all that time for nothing.

[Mladen]

I don't believe Meereen is boring, but... I remember that was one big criticism about Deathly Hallows and the whole camping trip. One thing is to portray the character as bored, and another one, is to bore the reader. So, while I don't consider it boring, Martin might have indeed, inadvertently, bored his readership.

Nicely said...

[Knight Of Winter]

For me, it's because Slaver's Bay characters are usually bland and uninteresting, mostly by being comically one-dimensional evil moustache twirling villains. Really, almost everyone we meet in SB is either comically evil (Good Masters, Wise Masters...), plain jerks (Daario, Pyat Pree...) or laughably ineffective (Hizdahr...). There are some exceptions, like Missandei, but not enough to change the big picture. Really, tertiary Westerosi character like Hyle Hunt is more interesting to me than all of Jixdars and Grazztens combined.

Pity, because Essos had the potential to be a great setting.

[James Arryn]

I don't believe Meereen is boring, but... I remember that was one big criticism about Deathly Hallows and the whole camping trip. One thing is to portray the character as bored, and another one, is to bore the reader. So, while I don't consider it boring, Martin might have indeed, inadvertently, bored his readership.

Yeah, I don't think an extended description of daily sword training would be all that entertaining either. Necessary for the character if they want to get better, but not the reader. As with any other laborious task, the mundanity and repetition are obstacles to the labourer, but a reader doesn't need to empathize in order to understand.

Again, though, I agree that Dany's plot line is the biggest victim of his 5 year thing. I think less is more would have been the better editorial choice, but I suppose it's important to keep her place as a central character.

[Good Guy Garlan]

I don't believe Meereen is boring, but... I remember that was one big criticism about Deathly Hallows and the whole camping trip. One thing is to portray the character as bored, and another one, is to bore the reader. So, while I don't consider it boring, Martin might have indeed, inadvertently, bored his readership.

This is a very good point. GRRM reportedly said that he wanted to portray the "boring" side of ruling (his example was the more bureaucratic aspects of Aragorn's rule), but leaving aside the issue of whether or not that was a good decision (sure, it's a realistic depiction, but so is the process of shitting, and I don't see that being portrayed in the books. Oh, wait, I just remembered Dany's last aDwD chapter. Anyway, my point is that something being "realistic" is not necessarily a good reason for that something to be included), I think GRRM failed in that regard because he was unable to depict a tedious situation in an interesting way, as opposed to other authors that have a knack for it, in my opinion

In any case, one of the biggest fallacies in this regard is an argument that I've encountered every now and then: that we as readers are meant to be bored with Meereen because Dany herself is bored. Whenever I see that argument I'm tempted to curl into a ball and weep for humanity

[Blazfemur]

Here a question for you:all those who hate Dany's staying in Meereen and pretty much everything after the sack of Astapor,do you hate this storyline because it is plain boring,because you can't stand a minute of Dany outside Westeros or just because the story itself is bad?

The main thing is,even if Dany's storyline had to be dragged up and she couldn't go to Westeros,would it make a difference if the characters were a bit more empathetic and not a bunch of pit fighters and mustache twirling slavers with strange names and forgettable personalities?

I think it's because it was supposed to be her dream to rule, reclaim her birthright, and be accepted by people that supposedly love her.

Not to mention it's always been, the advice of Jorah and Barristan to go west.

And it's pretty much become a self-fulfilling spoiler that anything Jorah and Barristan say will inevitably be what Daenerys DOESNT do.

The people there hate her. They dont want a new rule, and a lot of slaves were happy and making a living doing what they were enslaved to do, theyve come to terms with it. It's too much of a cost, to her expedition, an unnecessary one, to forcefully impose her rule to those that dont even welcome it.

I see her delay as a plot device. George is stalling her purposely i think, setting up the back pieces of the big game before he finally moves the dragon piece.