[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XII - New direction

[Newstar]

Transcription of Terri Schwartz podcast tidbit upthread re: what Iwan Rheon said in an interview: "Ramsay does something this season that's the absolute worst thing he's ever done, ever...I was like [to Rheon] 'Can he do anything more evil than [castrating Theon]?' and he was like 'Yes. It happens this season.'"

Josh Wigler, who's speaking with Terri Schwartz, says that the worst thing that Ramsay does in the books is the rape scene with Jeyne and Theon, and I tend to agree (at least "on-screen" as seen firsthand by a POV).

Terri then says that in her interview with Alfie Allen, that she'll post later, "Alfie says that something happens about halfway through the season that's really going to make huge waves and people aren't going to be happy about it, it's hard to watch. I [meaning Alfie] bear witness to this thing and it's crazy. I have to portray how messed up everyone's situation through my own reactions to what happens. Get ready for it."

I have to think that Iwan Rheon and Alfie Allen are referencing the same scene, and that this scene definitely involves Sansa and not Myranda. Why would anyone be upset about Myranda or a minor character being brutalized? Minor characters get brutalized all the time on this show, and no one's overly fussed about villains getting the same treatment they eagerly dish out to others; I didn't see any "huge waves" over Littlefinger shoving Lysa to her death.

[Elaena Targaryen]

I guess the new toy of Ramsay will be Brienne or Pod. In the books Biter bites part of her face off, maybe they will keep that scene when Brienne is captured by dogs, I don't know... just a thought.

I thought this too, but then I read the interview with Iwan where he talks about how difficult it was to get ready for this particular scene in season 5. It went something like - the interviewer asked him if it involved torture like flaying Theon's fingers and Iwan said he didn't mind scenes like that because it's just props. Anyway, from that interview, I think it would have to be something that repulsed him as a human being to portray, something more than biting off a face using props, something even more emotionally horrific than he has already done.

(Does anyone have a link to that interview? I would like to read it again to see if I recall it correctly, I'm sure I could dig it up but I'm being lazy.)

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I have to think that Iwan Rheon and Alfie Allen are referencing the same scene, and that this scene definitely involves Sansa and not Myranda. Why would anyone be upset about Myranda or a minor character being brutalized? Minor characters get brutalized all the time on this show, and no one's overly fussed about villains getting the same treatment they eagerly dish out to others; I didn't see any "huge waves" over Littlefinger shoving Lysa to her death.

We'll have to agree to disagree, as will most people here for the time being. I think we'll just have to wait to see in this case. I won't be placing my bet on this, but I do know some fans have their ideal scenarios in mind, as twisted and sickening as it is to root for rape and torture, and I'd not be surprised with anything on GOT. Just not convinced this is the way they'll go, as it seems rather ridiculous to hype a character as something only to then undo it in less than half a season. It also makes no sense when coupled with Sophie's words about how Sansa's being a prisoner that's much more in control. Not sure how Sansa's knights and Brienne and Pod factor into this, and Myranda too. But, people believe what they want to believe. I might as well be on denial.

[Colonel Green]

We'll have to agree to disagree, as will most people here for the time being. I think we'll just have to wait to see in this case. I won't be placing my bet on this, but I do know some fans have their ideal scenarios in mind, as twisted and sickening as it is to root for rape and torture, and I'd not be surprised with anything on GOT. Just not convinced this is the way they'll go, as it seems rather ridiculous to hype a character as something only to then undo it in less than half a season. It also makes no sense when coupled with Sophie's words about how Sansa's being a prisoner that's much more in control. Not sure how Sansa's knights and Brienne and Pod factor into this, and Myranda too. But, people believe what they want to believe. I might as well be on denial.

This is certainly not what I want to happen. I'm just reading the tea leaves, and after four seasons one has a fairly reasonable sense of how the writers work.

As far as this being rather dubious as a character direction, I completely agree. But Sansa's arc on the show has, in general, not been handled very well, so if this were a bad way to handle the character it wouldn't be out of step with past practice.

[Phraek]

Hmmm, what a rather depressing thread! I've been a long time reader but this thread compelled me to sign up for the forums, FINALLY!

Anyway, I just can't see LF's plan to marry Sansa to Ramsay. I will say that I have not read many tidbits from the actors or anything like that, so a few of these posts almost had me convinced. (damn you!)

From s5e1 standpoint, Littlefinger says "far away from Cersei's reach" or something like that. Ramsay is one of the Lannister's main forces... I just can't think of any reason that he would put her in that position except, maybe, to kill him? Maybe he fuels her rage about how his dad killed her mom, etc etc, and puts her in a position to kill him? It's clear that LF isn't a fan of the Lannisters and has an agenda that's opposite of theirs (or the same, power). Unfortunately, the actor's blurb-spoilers that were posted a couple pages back might throw this theory right out the window.

Also, the show seems to be moving pretty quick already this season. There is already talks of Stannis going south to march on Bolton and the Wall is much closer to WF than the Vale... so Stannis could be to WF before they would ever get there.

Here's one I didn't see in the thread anywhere: What if he's taking her to the Iron Islands? That would definately be out of the reach of Cersei. LF already basically 'has' the Vale, Harrenhal... so maybe he wants to also get, somehow, the force of the Greyjoys' fleet behind him?

I don't know. I feel like I'm rambling now but as I read 11 pages of this thread, I just HAD to say my 2 cents that I don't think LF intends to put Sansa in harm's way. Maybe it happens, maybe his real plan goes horribly wrong... I just hope not.

Try not to flame me too hard.

[Cold Hands warm heart]

Sansa is off to see the Wizard, in Pentos.

[Colonel Green]

Hmmm, what a rather depressing thread! I've been a long time reader but this thread compelled me to sign up for the forums, FINALLY!

Anyway, I just can't see LF's plan to marry Sansa to Ramsay. I will say that I have not read many tidbits from the actors or anything like that, so a few of these posts almost had me convinced. (damn you!)

From s5e1 standpoint, Littlefinger says "far away from Cersei's reach" or something like that. Ramsay is one of the Lannister's main forces... I just can't think of any reason that he would put her in that position except, maybe, to kill him? Maybe he fuels her rage about how his dad killed her mom, etc etc, and puts her in a position to kill him? It's clear that LF isn't a fan of the Lannisters and has an agenda that's opposite of theirs (or the same, power). Unfortunately, the actor's blurb-spoilers that were posted a couple pages back might throw this theory right out the window.

Also, the show seems to be moving pretty quick already this season. There is already talks of Stannis going south to march on Bolton and the Wall is much closer to WF than the Vale... so Stannis could be to WF before they would ever get there.

Here's one I didn't see in the thread anywhere: What if he's taking her to the Iron Islands? That would definately be out of the reach of Cersei. LF already basically 'has' the Vale, Harrenhal... so maybe he wants to also get, somehow, the force of the Greyjoys' fleet behind him?

I don't know. I feel like I'm rambling now but as I read 11 pages of this thread, I just HAD to say my 2 cents that I don't think LF intends to put Sansa in harm's way. Maybe it happens, maybe his real plan goes horribly wrong... I just hope not.

Try not to flame me too hard.

That Sansa's going to Winterfell is really not up for question at this point, based on the show's second trailer.

[sweetsunray]

Hmmm, what a rather depressing thread! I've been a long time reader but this thread compelled me to sign up for the forums, FINALLY!

Anyway, I just can't see LF's plan to marry Sansa to Ramsay. I will say that I have not read many tidbits from the actors or anything like that, so a few of these posts almost had me convinced. (damn you!)

From s5e1 standpoint, Littlefinger says "far away from Cersei's reach" or something like that. Ramsay is one of the Lannister's main forces... I just can't think of any reason that he would put her in that position except, maybe, to kill him? Maybe he fuels her rage about how his dad killed her mom, etc etc, and puts her in a position to kill him? It's clear that LF isn't a fan of the Lannisters and has an agenda that's opposite of theirs (or the same, power). Unfortunately, the actor's blurb-spoilers that were posted a couple pages back might throw this theory right out the window.

Also, the show seems to be moving pretty quick already this season. There is already talks of Stannis going south to march on Bolton and the Wall is much closer to WF than the Vale... so Stannis could be to WF before they would ever get there.

Here's one I didn't see in the thread anywhere: What if he's taking her to the Iron Islands? That would definately be out of the reach of Cersei. LF already basically 'has' the Vale, Harrenhal... so maybe he wants to also get, somehow, the force of the Greyjoys' fleet behind him?

I don't know. I feel like I'm rambling now but as I read 11 pages of this thread, I just HAD to say my 2 cents that I don't think LF intends to put Sansa in harm's way. Maybe it happens, maybe his real plan goes horribly wrong... I just hope not.

Try not to flame me too hard.

No flaming but definite info from the trailer

1) Sansa in the WF crypts

2) Roose, Ramsay and Walda all dolled up to welcome arrivals in the yard

3) Eyrie knights with the Eyrie sigil thundering through what looks to be WF gates and a host of people awaiting their arrival, and when you look closely you can see 2 other riders in the front of that column who appear to be LF and Sansa, which also seems the same column riding through scenery where there's another shot of Dark Sansa thinking pensively and looking at something in the distance. And that landscape pretty much fits that of the North we saw in S1E1 during the beheading of the NW deserter.

We also know from S4 that Roose and Ramsay intended to go to WF and take up residence there

And the show's intro revealed a rebuilt WF that wasn't a rubble and smoking anymore as it has been during S3 and S4

I think we should brace ourselves for the worst.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Transcription of Terri Schwartz podcast tidbit upthread re: what Iwan Rheon said in an interview: "Ramsay does something this season that's the absolute worst thing he's ever done, ever...I was like [to Rheon] 'Can he do anything more evil than [castrating Theon]?' and he was like 'Yes. It happens this season.'"

Josh Wigler, who's speaking with Terri Schwartz, says that the worst thing that Ramsay does in the books is the rape scene with Jeyne and Theon, and I tend to agree (at least "on-screen" as seen firsthand by a POV).

Terri then says that in her interview with Alfie Allen, that she'll post later, "Alfie says that something happens about halfway through the season that's really going to make huge waves and people aren't going to be happy about it, it's hard to watch. I [meaning Alfie] bear witness to this thing and it's crazy. I have to portray how messed up everyone's situation through my own reactions to what happens. Get ready for it."

I have to think that Iwan Rheon and Alfie Allen are referencing the same scene, and that this scene definitely involves Sansa and not Myranda. Why would anyone be upset about Myranda or a minor character being brutalized? Minor characters get brutalized all the time on this show, and no one's overly fussed about villains getting the same treatment they eagerly dish out to others; I didn't see any "huge waves" over Littlefinger shoving Lysa to her death.

It's going to be Myranda trying to harm Sansa out of jealousy and then Ramsey does something very nasty to her. People felt bad for Cersei for her walk even though they hated her, I think they can make what Ramsey does so nasty that even if you didn't like Myranda you can be repulsed by it.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

This is certainly not what I want to happen. I'm just reading the tea leaves, and after four seasons one has a fairly reasonable sense of how the writers work.

As far as this being rather dubious as a character direction, I completely agree. But Sansa's arc on the show has, in general, not been handled very well, so if this were a bad way to handle the character it wouldn't be out of step with past practice.

I mostly agree with you. This is not what I want to happen, and I'm really arguing more for denial that they'd even go there, but considering this show, I wouldn't be surprised. Sansa's arc, as several arcs, has been handled quite poorly (Grumpy!Brienne is still worse, but even so), so I wouldn't put it past them to go the rape and murder route, if only, as I've seen arguments flying around, that it makes for the better TV.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

I'm going to wait to past judgment on this supposed new direction for Sansa. I have to admit I'm pretty excited for where her story might go now. I was always picturing a Jon/Arya reunion, but maybe we'll get Jon and Sansa.

[Colonel Green]

It's going to be Myranda trying to harm Sansa out of jealousy and then Ramsey does something very nasty to her. People felt bad for Cersei for her walk even though they hated her, I think they can make what Ramsey does so nasty that even if you didn't like Myranda you can be repulsed by it.

She's in three more episodes, at least one of them as late as episodes 9-10, so I don't think that really fits (it also doesn't really go along with McElhatton stating that they do nasty things to nice people this season).

[Alayne's Shadow.]

It's either Brienne/Pod or Sansa. At what point have we come to...

[King Arthurzico]

You know what really bothered me from that line: "far away from Cersei's reach"?

The only reason for LF to be in WF would be if Cersei told him to go there.

I mean, if he is betraying Cersei why go to an ally of Cersei?

And if they are both betraying Cersei, why would LF want to side with the Boltons, in the first place?

The only possible answer is to betray the Boltons and get revenge for Sansa.

The Boltons should be able to realize that. Why would they trust LF is on their side if they have nothing to offer to him, he is already a Lord, and have an army in the Vale. And suddenly he decides to help the Boltons as philanthropy? And Roose will buy that?

Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself, they will probably come up with some lie that LF will tell them, I just can't imagine what it will be...

Pehaps a noble marriage for LF's bastard.

[Newstar]

Yup.

Ramsays marriage to Sansa will be what gets Jon killed in the show as he will rush to WF to rescue his sister.

I sense a Jon/ Sansa reunion in S6

LOL, the Jon/Sansa shippers will have a field day.

I agree with Colonel Green "reading the tea leaves" in making these dire predictions about Sansa's arc this season. It's in keeping with the show's tendency of merging characters and plotlines (Gendry/Edric Storm mashup). Assuming that Sansa's arc does involve some sort of assumption of Book Jeyne's role in relation to Ramsay, I get it. TV Jeyne is a virtual nonentity, whereas TV Sansa is a central character. Putting Sansa in Book Jeyne's place raises the stakes considerably and attracts more viewer investment than the perils of a character who would be a newcomer and therefore not likely to excite the same level of feeling in the viewer.

In all seriousness, assuming I am right and that TV Sansa is raped and abused by Ramsay this season, it seems like a cruel joke at Sansa's expense on the showrunners' part. "She's come into her own as this independent, empowered young woman in control of her fate, a real player...LOL, not really, she gets imprisoned, tortured and victimized by a psychopath." On the other hand, ASOIAF specializes in cruel jokes, so perhaps something equally nasty, if not involving Ramsay, is awaiting Book Sansa. As it is, I have a hard time reconciling my prediction for TV Sansa's plot this season with Book Sansa's relatively sedate and comfortable Vale arc. Assuming I'm right, either the TV writers have their work cut out for them in terms of getting TV Sansa back "on track" after her stint with Ramsay, or Book Sansa's arc in the Vale is going to take a very nasty turn in TWOW to get her closer to where TV Sansa will end up at the end of the season.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

Sansa is not going to get raped, even D&D wouldn't go there.

[Colonel Green]

In all seriousness, assuming I am right and that TV Sansa is raped and abused by Ramsay this season, it seems like a cruel joke at Sansa's expense on the showrunners' part. "She's come into her own as this independent, empowered young woman in control of her fate, a real player...LOL, not really, she gets imprisoned, tortured and victimized by a psychopath."

From some of Sophie's interviews I expect the writers had the idea that she would show her "player" capabilities in fighting back against her captors, as the justification for otherwise putting her into this role. I'm rather dubious whether this will actually work.

Sansa is not going to get raped, even D&D wouldn't go there.

I would have thought so as well, especially after Septgate.

Bryan Cogman will probably have to stay away from Twitter for a while, if that does happen. The blowback from this, if it actually does live up to the actors' billing (though Sophie oddly tried to downplay her initial comments), will make the Jaime/Cersei bit look tame by comparison.

[Lady Sansa's Direwolf]

OR: oh, wait a minute....Roose is keen to marry Ramsey to "Arya" ASAP...nobody wants Ramsey to have awful abusive sex with Sansa, there are Vale knights, Manderlys and other Stark loyalists within the walls of Winterfell...when do they launch their revolt against the Freys/Boltons?

How about...right in the middle of the f***ing wedding? Oh yeah, the North remembers...

This, this sounds awesome. What song would take the place of 'Rains of Castemere?'

[Colonel Green]

As it is, I have a hard time reconciling my prediction for TV Sansa's plot this season with Book Sansa's relatively sedate and comfortable Vale arc. Assuming I'm right, either the TV writers have their work cut out for them in terms of getting TV Sansa back "on track" after her stint with Ramsay, or Book Sansa's arc in the Vale is going to take a very nasty turn in TWOW to get her closer to where TV Sansa will end up at the end of the season.

I already responded to a different part of this, but whatever: I think this represents such a substantive departure that it's hard to see how Sansa would end up with anything like her book arc regardless. I mean, if you follow the books she's going to end the season hanging out with Stannis. From there, she can, what, get sent to the Wall like Jeyne, or remain with Stannis and play some part in whatever the hell will be happening at Winterfell going forward (for the former option, incidentally, if you believe the theory that Justin Massey will end up taking fArya to Braavos with him and encounter the real Arya there, Sansa may continue subbing there too; but again, what does that have to do with the books?).

[NymeriaWarriorQueen]

nevermind