[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XII - New direction

[NymeriaWarriorQueen]

I don't see how Sansa would be exacting revenge on the Boltons by marrying Ramsay unless she had an army with her to guard and protect her. She would have to marry him pretending to be Ayra because everyone would know Sansa is married to Tyrion. I'm obviously missing the endgame here. Just don't get it.

[Florina Laufeyson]

I cant figure this out. Sansa is still married to Tyrion by law. Tyrion is still alive. Are they just gonna annul that? I mean, i dont mind if they do, because there was no consummation, but...yeah...

[Bran's Legs]

Everyone in the North should know Sansa Stark by sight. I'm just pointing this out for the sake of reality and logic. There's no possible way the showrunners could make it believable to anyone to have Roose and Ramsay Bolton duped by Littlefinger into thinking Sansa is someone else. It just makes no sense.

[Colonel Green]

Everyone in the North should know Sansa Stark by sight. I'm just pointing this out for the sake of reality and logic.

No, they wouldn't. This is a pre-photographic age. Hardly anybody who lived more than a few miles from Winterfell would have ever laid eyes on her.

[LadySoftheart]

No, they wouldn't. This is a pre-photographic age. Hardly anybody who lived more than a few miles from Winterfell would have ever laid eyes on her.

Exactly! That's why the Fake Arya plot works in the books - it's not that the northern lords don't believe there's something fishy going on with the Boltons, but they simply can't say, one way or another, that Jeyne Poole is definitely not Arya Stark. Theon is the only person who knows for sure that it's Jeyne. I bet lots of people didn't even know what their overlords looked like, let alone their daughters - hence all the heraldry for identification purposes. The only people who are sort of instantly identifiable are people with obvious physical differentiation (Tyrion's stature, Jaime's missing hand, Sandor's burnt face and the dog helmet...)

[Bayard]

You've got the pieces but you haven't put it together. I think they do go through with Sansa marrying Ramsay. The awful things will happen to Myranda; we saw from a season (or 2) ago what happens to the girls once Ramsay gets tired of them (he sent the dogs on that blonde girl). Sansa will see then use her newly found political savvy to escape before he can. It's a lot like the Queen of Thornes, Joffrey didn't have to personally attack Margaery for her to know he was a monster.

So I think this confirms for book readers that Harry Hardyng is probably an asshole.

After reading the Sansa sample I really doubt he's more than a Robert Baratheon type of figure. Anyway, why would Ramsay restrain himself??? Come on, in the books he starved his first wife to death and "had fun" with his second, which in the eyes of everyone was a Stark. In a situation like that no matter how intelligent you are there is nothing you can do. It's insulting to think that Sansa could spin the situation being alone in Winterfell with no men of her own, only with her wits.

[The Taxman]

I never been a huge fan of Sansa but if this is the way they are going with her story line I'm pretty pissed. This is just terrible and most importantly is it makes little sense.

The only thing I can think of that may actually work is Sansa seduces Ramsey so thoroughly that he become her "attack dog" if you will. This isn't Ramsey Bolton though. If he wants a woman bad enough he will just rape them and kill anyone that has a problem with it. He isn't smitten by women and ready to be submissive to them.

This whole Sansa storyline is a mess. Hopefully they don't muck up the other storylines also. I've got a really bad feeling about this season. Right now I feel like this is some bad fan fiction.

What the hell do you want to see? You actually want the show to act out the boring ass Sansa chapters from the boors? How about Brienne too?

Stop being foolish.

[ADanceWithCats]

I dont mind Sansa being fArya and taking a portion of that role-not marrying Ramsay but distracting him, but I am definitely in the majority of not understanding LF tkaing the chess piece of all chess pieces, Sansa Stark back to her home in WF and possibly marrying her off to a monster after everything she went through with Joffrey..I think through the Boltons LF and Sansa could find out Rickon and Bran are still alive

That's because LF actually likes and respects Sansa in his own creepy way.

Think about what LF is really about. It's not power. It's revenge. It's 'fucking with them'. That's a guy who climbed all the way from the Fingers to King's Landing for the singular purpose of killing Ned Stark, and then destroyed the Lannisters for not allowing him to take Sansa Stark.

Now, what does a guy who thinks revenge is the absolute best thing offer to a person he respects? An opportunity for revenge, of course. In the books, it's more circumspect, here, it seems like it's more direct.

And if Sansa fails? Then she was not worth being his protege/daughter/lust object in the first place.

It's pretty fun, really.

[voodooqueen126]

I cant figure this out. Sansa is still married to Tyrion by law. Tyrion is still alive. Are they just gonna annul that? I mean, i dont mind if they do, because there was no consummation, but...yeah...

religious differences. I imagine the Northerner's decide that Tyrion Sansa marriage just doesn't count.

[The Lady Lannister]

No, they wouldn't. This is a pre-photographic age. Hardly anybody who lived more than a few miles from Winterfell would have ever laid eyes on her.

Theon / Reek will know her though.

[Mladen]

religious differences. I imagine the Northerner's decide that Tyrion Sansa marriage just doesn't count.

There are no such things as religious differences in Westeros. Married in sept or godswood, you are married.

The more I hear about this, the more and more nonsensical this is. It doesn't work on any possible level. Even if we say that Alayne will marry Ramsay, it has more problems than anything, but to say Sansa Stark will marry him, that is, plainly idiotic. When we couple of months ago discussed this, I was appalled by the very idea of whether Alayne would marry Ramsay. Now, if this is the direction, and I am still hoping they actually have two healthy brain cells, this plot would never come to fruition.

Problem here is (1) Sansa is wanted woman (2) Sansa is married woman (3) LF is the all-knowing guy (4) LF has hots for Sansa (5) Roose Bolton, remember the guy, killed Robb, remember that guy, Sansa's brother. So, unless the producers are THAT stupid, and I generally want to believe they are not, this plot is nothing but a disaster. And I have no problems that it might get messy. The problem here is that it doesn't make much sense.

[Jaime4Brienne]

Just to clarify for anyone confused. The show's airing is now simulcast. Therefore, the time for it is always the same for everyone now. (which is pretty cool) That being 9pm EST. (6pm PST. 1am GMT. Wow....rip Europe.)

No simulcast....I live in England and had to wait until 9pm the next day before they showed it.

[Bandit Territory]

I don't see how Sansa would be exacting revenge on the Boltons by marrying Ramsay unless she had an army with her to guard and protect her. She would have to marry him pretending to be Ayra because everyone would know Sansa is married to Tyrion. I'm obviously missing the endgame here. Just don't get it.

I actually think you may be on to something there. What if Sansa is fArya in a more literal sense, and Ramsay thinks he's marrying Arya, when in reality its Sansa? She does currently have dark hair. That way, the Sansa/Ramsay marriage is not legally binding. Sansa is married and wanted by the crown for killing Joffrey, Arya isn't.

As for what Baelish and Sansa are doing there, they combined with Stannis and the Northern Lords, are going to retake Winterfell. Sansa can't retake Winterfell from the outside, the Boltons are to entrenched. So she's going to take them down from the inside. As Tyrion said, "Sansa's not a killer. Not yet anyway". That little line foreshadows that she is going to kill someone. I could see that happening this season. We know that five characters that are alive in the books, die this season. One of them is already dead. I could see another two being Roose and Ramsay. As far as the show goes, after this point, what purpose do they really serve? I don't see any plot value in them after this, at least not for Ramsay.

[BorhPT]

I start to understand LF's motives for this wedding. It might look like a detour from the books, but it might end up in the same place.

He's giving Sansa the revenge she wants, but it's too risky, it depends on many things he cant control... or can he? He knows Sansa won't get killed by Ramsay, because the North would revolt. Also he's counting on Stannis victory to save her, which he influenced a lot by making the Iron Bank enemy of the crown and friend of Stannis.

Does this mean that Rickon's plot will end up being for nothing? Will the show even care for it? I guess Rickon might come to Winterfell in the books, but probably will die and leave Sansa to be heir. At that time LF takes her North and gets the North in his side.

[Hath4]

http://mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/game-thrones-villain-iwan-rheon-5511318

so we know that ramsay will do some really disturbing things this year, so it will either be directed at sansa or myranda.

[Winter's Knight]

Don't say that!

[lojzelote]

religious differences. I imagine the Northerner's decide that Tyrion Sansa marriage just doesn't count.

There are no such things as religious differences in Westeros. Married in sept or godswood, you are married.

Yea. Plus, it would make Robb's marriage to Talisa invalid, too. I doubt that the King in the North woudn't have been aware of the little fact that the Northerners consider marriages in the sept unlawful.

Sansa marrying Ramsey as Sansa Stark simply doesn't make sense, unless LF secretly gets an annullment for her somehow.

[Typhoon Swell]

The show can invalidate Tyrion and Sansa's marriage with a few lines (the imp is a kinslayer and a fugitive/it was never consummated/different religion, etc.. whatever really). I don't think it's an obstacle.

[The Lady Lannister]

I do not think Ramsay's violence would be directed at Sansa (fingers and everything else crossed). GRRM obviously thought the show is spoiling TWOW, so he released the Alayne chapter which was all about Dark Sansa. I am quite convinced that Sansa will appear as a bastard in Winterfell and charm Ramsay (who would be even snottier about bastards) as she does with HtH. That would definitely be a big change of personality for Sansa.

As Typhoon Swell said Sansa's marriage can be annulled with a sentence in the show (after all people spent years analysing Lord Varys's intentions who summarised them in a minute for show Tyrion). But I cannot see what LF would gain by marrying Ramsay to Alayne / Sansa.

[Rippounet]

I don't see how Sansa would be exacting revenge on the Boltons by marrying Ramsay unless she had an army with her to guard and protect her.

That's the question isn't it?

If Sansa is to play the role of the insider in Winterfell (Mance/Abel + Manderly) she needs to be married to Ramsay.

But nobody wants to see that scene. So the question no one wants to ask is whether Sansa does have to sleep with Ramsay (a horrible thought to anyone, even more so when you've read the books) to become a player.

On the other hand, if Sansa is replacing Jeyne as (F)Arya, and is planned to be rescued by Theon/Reek (possibly before any consumation), then she will hardly have time to do anything useful in Winterfell and will end up being a pawn again.

So we're left with a real uncertainty as to what "new direction" Sansa's arc is taking. We want her to play the role of the insider without marrying (or at least having sex with) Ramsay. But this seems unlikely.

I'll go with three possibilities:

1) Sansa marries Ramsay. They have sex (consensual or not, both are cringeworthy imo). Sansa is in a position to influence events at Winterfell before Stannis arrives.

2) Sansa escapes before marrying Ramsay and joins Stannis. She still has no agency.

3) Sansa marries or is betrothed to Ramsay but somehow pulls a Scheherazade on him (she manages to manipulate him to avoid the worst). She remains in Winterfell as a Stark and somehow manages to have enough influence to take revenge on the Boltons before or as Stannis arrives.

I guess only solution 3) makes sense. Sansa will not marry Ramsay, just be engaged to him. She will quickly become a rallying point for Stark loyalists, and will somehow manage to organize the Boltons' downfall before escaping the castle. Then, Stannis will take Winterfell for her.

Unless of course, she takes the castle by herself before Stannis arrives... That would be awesome... But I don't see how...

This makes the Boltons a rather dumb lot imho (underestimating both Sansa and Stannis). But then, it would make Sansa a key player... And her being underestimated all the more enjoyable.

IIRC there is a Ramsay-Miranda sex scene in the trailer, which lends credence to the idea that Ramsay will harm Miranda instead of Sansa (Miranda having a Shae-like role then: she becomes an inconvenience for the Boltons after the betrothal).

The disturbing scene could be Ramsay torturing and killing Miranda in front of Sansa (as a proof of Ramsay-ish 'love'). Episode 7 "the gift", maybe? Though of course, we all know what "the gift" is really referring to, episode titles have been known to have more than one meaning, and I think that's the case here again.

Some random observations:

- I don't see much snow/blizzard in the trailers (even Hardhome doesn't seem snowed under). Isn't winter supposed to be here already? Or is global warming a thing in Westeros as well?

- Where is Rickon? Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe male heirs take precedence over female heirs in the North. Hence, since Bran is turning into a tree and Jon won't accept Stannis's offer, Rickon is the legitimate heir to Winterfell and the North both in the books and in the show. Except in the show, there is no Manderly to send Davos to look for him. So where the h**** is Rickon and isn't that important?