[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XII - New direction

[Lord Friendzone]

Yup.

Ramsays marriage to Sansa will be what gets Jon killed in the show as he will rush to WF to rescue his sister.

I sense a Jon/ Sansa reunion in S6

I could see season 6 reunion for Jon/Sansa too.WF crypt scene would be obviously about Lyanna and quite possibly Rhaegar as well.Maybe it's just another hint to Jon's parentage,besides other that already happened,but it could mean she will somehow figured it out(Jon's parentage) and actually meet Jon in season 6.But Sophie said in one interview very interesting thing she has to stay strong for her brothers Bran and Rickon(God knows where he is right now).I mean look at Gendry.This poor fella is still paddling away from Dragonstone.What a trooper! :bowdown:I bet he's gonna show up out of nowhere in season 7 and will win the IT ."The boat that was promised"

:commie:

[Nefertari]

LOL, the Jon/Sansa shippers will have a field day.

I agree with Colonel Green "reading the tea leaves" in making these dire predictions about Sansa's arc this season. It's in keeping with the show's tendency of merging characters and plotlines (Gendry/Edric Storm mashup). Assuming that Sansa's arc does involve some sort of assumption of Book Jeyne's role in relation to Ramsay, I get it. TV Jeyne is a virtual nonentity, whereas TV Sansa is a central character. Putting Sansa in Book Jeyne's place raises the stakes considerably and attracts more viewer investment than the perils of a character who would be a newcomer and therefore not likely to excite the same level of feeling in the viewer.

In all seriousness, assuming I am right and that TV Sansa is raped and abused by Ramsay this season, it seems like a cruel joke at Sansa's expense on the showrunners' part. "She's come into her own as this independent, empowered young woman in control of her fate, a real player...LOL, not really, she gets imprisoned, tortured and victimized by a psychopath." On the other hand, ASOIAF specializes in cruel jokes, so perhaps something equally nasty, if not involving Ramsay, is awaiting Book Sansa. As it is, I have a hard time reconciling my prediction for TV Sansa's plot this season with Book Sansa's relatively sedate and comfortable Vale arc. Assuming I'm right, either the TV writers have their work cut out for them in terms of getting TV Sansa back "on track" after her stint with Ramsay, or Book Sansa's arc in the Vale is going to take a very nasty turn in TWOW to get her closer to where TV Sansa will end up at the end of the season.

I agree, in a way or another the Jayne role will be taken by someone.

I'm guessing it's Sansa, the impact would be very strong, and people won't like it (people are already hating the possibility).

I admit another possibility would be Sansa escaping and someone else taking her place, in this case, i suppose Brienne could be a possibility. she's a well loved character, innocent, and definately people won't like her being abused (I don't think people would care much if it's Miranda, she's a not entity and she's as nasty as Ramsay), what i fail to understand is why Sansa would escape BEFORE being abused.

So my bet is Sansa will be Ramsay new toy.

[ADanceWithCats]

I have to think that Iwan Rheon and Alfie Allen are referencing the same scene, and that this scene definitely involves Sansa and not Myranda. Why would anyone be upset about Myranda or a minor character being brutalized? Minor characters get brutalized all the time on this show, and no one's overly fussed about villains getting the same treatment they eagerly dish out to others; I didn't see any "huge waves" over Littlefinger shoving Lysa to her death.

I think that Sansa would - this would remind her of her time in King's Landing. And we'll be watching this scene through the prism of 'here's Sansa realising what she's dealing with, exactly, and that she's next'.

[Woman of War]

I cannot see Roose Bolton getting played so easily by Sansa and Baelish.

He has been built up as a bad guy with a brain, a longterm thinker, a silent dark force in the background, just like in the books... No stories have ever been told of me...

Roose should imo not die so soon, on the contrary, his importance should be enlarged. Not because he is such a nice guy but because the show and even the books are seriously short of quality villains by now. Only LF? That is not enough. After Tywin is gone you need a complex and calculating antagonist, dangerous in the long run, not some onedimensional bad guys like Victarion or inconsistent players like Cersei.

Who else would be there? Roose is needed, apart from that McElhatton is a superb actor.. (Not that Iwan Rheon is less great but Ramsay as character is less important than Roose imo)

And that's why I do not think the show can afford to let Sansa beat Roose just like that. She may get Ramsay killed though and try to get her revenge in a badass manner but she will at least partially fail and endanger herself seriously. Roose will (should imo) stay with us.

Apart from that Theon's arc is at least as compelling as Sansa's arc in its quality both in books and series. The more Alfie Allen the better. I do not want Sansa to shine at the expense of Reek's story development, so Theon getting Sansa out would make sense for me, even if Sansa is shown as in need of help. And since when does a person get reduced by needing and accepting help?!

I cannot imagine that it would be Brienne to whom Ramsay does horrible things, at least he won't kill her since I think she is the one to kill Stannis in the end, Renly's murder will come back to Stannis. By then I might really care about him, I was lukewarm so far, and at that point Brienne will make him pay.

No, no not Pod please!

In short, I guess Sansa will be the victim though we might witness Myranda's cruel death first. Though Sansa might at least technically stay a virgin again, her ironclad maidenhead has always been the watermark in every script page so far. Only everything has plot armour until it doesn't.........

But she will for sure survive .... I guess.....and her nose won't freeze off just like Tyrion's has not been cut off.

[rozemarijn]

Winterfell wasn't burning in the opening credits...she's on her way!

Nice catch.

If Ramsay is going to replace Harry and she actually goes to Winterfell it seems she will be replacing Jeyne?

Sophie talking about a traumatic scene might indicate that. I really really don't want to see her raped by dogs...

Besides it would be a very wrong dicision. The last time we saw her she became a player and her famous quote 'I know what you want'. He wants her. He might bethroth her to decent Harry but to Ramsay's reputation? She is not one of his whores, he cares and wants her for himself.

Plus, there is the 'revenge them' quote from the trailer. He either uses it to lure her into the marriage or he has a plan.

I guess it will be the last one, it would be stupid yo built her up and then let her be Ramsays sex slave only to be rescued again.

[ni2tre]

This is the "controversial chapter" all over again. I'm sure it won't be that controversial at all, as Sophie Turner herself said "a 6/10". Atleast I hope so, I hope it won't be a rape scene, not even implied. But then I struggle to see what will stop Ramsay from consumating the marriage.

I'd like to discuss Brienne aswell and I hope I'm not going off topic here since their storylines are linked.

Brienne has to choose a side, join with Stannis whom she hates or Roose Bolton who could potentially take her head off for risking his plans, he doesn't need her lurking around. Decisions...

[Rippounet]

OR: oh, wait a minute....Roose is keen to marry Ramsey to "Arya" ASAP...nobody wants Ramsey to have awful abusive sex with Sansa, there are Vale knights, Manderlys and other Stark loyalists within the walls of Winterfell...when do they launch their revolt against the Freys/Boltons?

How about...right in the middle of the f***ing wedding? Oh yeah, the North remembers...

This, this sounds awesome. What song would take the place of 'Rains of Castemere?'

I've been wondering about this as well...

I still have a hard time believing the wedding will occur. But this is Westeros, where weddings have become synonymous with murder.

So I could see Sansa having a traumatic scene with Ramsay before... And then all hell breaking loose at the wedding itself... Stark loyalists could be shouting "The North remembers"... And Sansa could put a dagger through Roose's heart. Ramsay would be Theon's...

Not sure where Brienne&Podric fit in. Probably get captured and tortured...

[Newstar]

I already responded to a different part of this, but whatever: I think this represents such a substantive departure that it's hard to see how Sansa would end up with anything like her book arc regardless. I mean, if you follow the books she's going to end the season hanging out with Stannis. From there, she can, what, get sent to the Wall like Jeyne, or remain with Stannis and play some part in whatever the hell will be happening at Winterfell going forward (for the former option, incidentally, if you believe the theory that Justin Massey will end up taking fArya to Braavos with him and encounter the real Arya there, Sansa may continue subbing there too; but again, what does that have to do with the books?).

This Sansa in WF arc seems like the opposite of a filler arc, and unlike the other characters, who seem to be on track to end up where they end up at the end of ADWD, it looks like Sansa's Vale storyline is being abandoned altogether. No angst over her Alayne cover being blown, no plot to poison Sweetrobin, no difficulty getting the Vale lords on board, no sign of Harry the Heir, etc. I mean, I suppose it's possible that Sansa could escape WF and wind up back in the Vale by the end of the season in time to meet up with LF again and hear about the planned marriage to Harry the Heir, but I dunno, it seems awfully unlikely.

As for Sophie's 6/10 trauma designation, I'm not convinced, since assuming it's the same scene referenced by Rheon and Allen, it must be truly awful to warrant particular mention by those actors.

I agree that there will be huge blowback if Sansa is raped, even if it's only suggested as opposed to depicted. On the other hand, Alfie Allen seems to be saying that he expects the scene in question to make a lot of fans unhappy, so...

ETA: LOL, the list of reasons I posted upthread for speculating about Sansa getting raped and tortured this season and Elaena Targaryen's bit from Alfie were posted to Reddit and to WOTW. I'm...flattered?

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

To be honest, while of course I don't want to see Sansa endure what Jeyne Poole did. I don't see why the character should be guarded from it. I don't see why Sansa in the story should be given a special waiver on the hell. However, if they plan on making Ramsey, 'Ramsey the Heir' as per the latest chapter who Sansa must win on side that would be seriously weird. If she is trying to play Ramsey with sex, that surely makes it worse given Ramsey's character.

I've been wondering about this as well...

I still have a hard time believing the wedding will occur. But this is Westeros, where weddings have become synonymous with murder.

So I could see Sansa having a traumatic scene with Ramsay before... And then all hell breaking loose at the wedding itself... Stark loyalists could be shouting "The North remembers"... And Sansa could put a dagger through Roose's heart. Ramsay would be Theon's...

Not sure where Brienne&Podric fit in. Probably get captured and tortured...

Replacing Mance and the Spearwives' rescue attempt? I think the Battle for Winterfell is too big a plot point to move.

I'm going to wait to past judgment on this supposed new direction for Sansa. I have to admit I'm pretty excited for where her story might go now. I was always picturing a Jon/Sansa reunion, but maybe will get Jon and Sansa.

Reunion? They've never spoken two words to each other, in the show or the books!

[Colonel Green]

To be honest, while of course I don't want to see Sansa endure what Jeyne Poole did. I don't see why the character should be guarded from it. I don't see why Sansa in the story should be given a special waiver on the hell.

You don't see why people would find the rewriting of a main character's story to include brutal sexual assault would be rather controversial?

Reunion? They've never spoken two words to each other, in the show or the books!

Indeed, though they obviously are meant to know each other (the same being true of Sansa and Theon, and, for that matter, both Arya and Sansa and their brothers Bran and Rickon).

[Phraek]

Good points everyone. After re-watching the trailers and reading some of the actor comments, I think I will hope for the best and expect the worst! Once again I'm impressed with the dedication and keen eyes/minds of the forum posters!

[lojzelote]

I doubt Ramsey will rape Sansa. Psychological terror, if done well, would be almost as terrible and much less controversial.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

So you want Sansa to be raped & tortured by Ramsay when nothing of this sort happens in the books and has no chance of happening now that the battle of ice is underway?

That's not what s/he's saying but that it wouldn't make sense to send Sansa to Ramsay and not suffer any damage of any kind. Ramsay is obviously hurting fArya, despite everybody believes she's real. Why would Ramsay spare Sansa from any damage or cruelty? It's about the consistence with the character, as Ramsay is not the kind who would be fooled or "tamed" by kindness, sex or whatever Sansa could offer him.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I'm still waiting for the next chapters to air in order to form my opinion. And this is just how some posters had made a number of posts about the controversy in Sansa's chapters, even going with the rape card several times and how Sansa shouldn't be protected against it. And we have all seem how that turned out. It was most likely a controversy to those that couldn't bear the thought of Sansa as a player.

And If I had to bet, I'd say that LF's motto from Winds "Charm him" will definitely play a part in the show. Even the most dangerous men can be maneuvered.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

That's not what s/he's saying but that it wouldn't make sense to send Sansa to Ramsay and not suffer any damage of any kind. Ramsay is obviously hurting fArya, despite everybody believes she's real. Why would Ramsay spare Sansa from any damage or cruelty? It's about the consistence with the character, as Ramsay is not the kind who would be fooled or "tamed" by kindness, sex or whatever Sansa could offer him.

But that's the thing. Show!Ramsay is not Book!Ramsay. Show!Ramsay is being combined into Harry 'The Heir', I'd say. And then, there's Myranda, a character that makes no sense for Book!Ramsay. Would he ever have a girl like that? I wouldn't put it past them to change that characterization in order to humanize the character, which is their justification to everything. Look at show!Shae.

[sweetsunray]

You don't see why people would find the rewriting of a main character's story to include brutal sexual assault would be rather controversial?

I don't think anyone here wants this to happen to a character they are emotionally invested in, and yes that's very controversial. OTOH from a pure rational POV we can ask ourselves moral questions if we think "well it's alright for it to happen to Jeyne Poole who we didn't like in aGoT already and we haven't seen her for 4 books... she should be happy she made it this far alive already. It's wrong and we sympathize with you, Jeyne, but better that it happens to you than those we personally are invested in." But when it seems the same is going to happen to Sansa, we cry out, "No, they wouldn't dare do that Sansa... No way! That's not right! It should be Brienne or Myranda."

In all fairness, GRRM started out by writing in a way that told us "nobody has plot armour": Ned beheaded (POV character) and Robb killed at the RW (not POV)... but the other Stark children have thick plot armour: LS, two other boys killed, fArya... And maybe the show decided that the fArya would be a cop out, just like LSH would make people expect that if anyone seems to get killed, that somehow they'll make it.

No Catelyn surviving as LS, no Mance being glamoured and someone else killed for him, and no fake Stark daughter being abused and raped. Catelyn is dead, Mance is dead, and Ramsay gets his hands on a real Stark daugher (though bestiality is too r-rated I think), just like Robb and Ned are dead. But Jon will warg into Ghost ;)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

But that's the thing. Show!Ramsay is not Book!Ramsay. Show!Ramsay is being combined into Harry 'The Heir', I'd say. And then, there's Myranda, a character that makes no sense for Book!Ramsay. Would he ever have a girl like that? I wouldn't put it past them to change that characterization in order to humanize the character, which is their justification to everything. Look at show!Shae.

bRamsay is a sadistic asshole and the sRamsay is the same. To be fair, we haven't yet seen more layers of him to have a full opinion. His conversations with Roose could be him just keeping control to not upset his father, but that's it. I think he's more like Joffrey: a monster who knows how to behave in front of the right people. Is Sansa the "right people"? Look, if they show him to realise he can't physically hurt Sansa, I'm fine with it. But if they somehow make him a softie by the power of Sansa's tenderness... :rolleyes:

[Cas Stark]

It's more than people not wanting Sansa to be abused because it's Sansa, it's that being raped/tortured/abused is something that would have a long term impact on her character, her personality, it would change her. So, having Sansa go forward as a rape survivor, especially if this doesn't happen to her at any time in the books, is a huge, massive change to her story, her character, her personality. They can't simply have her raped and abused and then drop it and go on as if it never happened and she's the same person she was before.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

bRamsay is a sadistic asshole and the sRamsay is the same. To be fair, we haven't yet seen more layers of him to have a full opinion. His conversations with Roose could be him just keeping control to not upset his father, but that's it. I think he's more like Joffrey: a monster who knows how to behave in front of the right people. Is Sansa the "right people"? Look, if they show him to realise he can't physically hurt Sansa, I'm fine with it. But if they somehow make him a softie by the power of Sansa's tenderness... :rolleyes:

If they make him a softie, then that's one of IMO, the worst things they have done. I'd prefer if they went the Joffrey/Margaery route, but then again, you never know with this show. Anyway this goes, Itms character assassination. I thought I had seen it all after the butcher of Catelyn Stark, but maybe I was wrong.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It's more than people not wanting Sansa to be abused because it's Sansa, it's that being raped/tortured/abused is something that would have a long term impact on her character, her personality, it would change her. So, having Sansa go forward as a rape survivor, especially if this doesn't happen to her at any time in the books, is a huge, massive change to her story, her character, her personality. They can't simply have her raped and abused and then drop it and go on as if it never happened and she's the same person she was before.

I agree with you, but at the same time, they're sending her to a monster who had little motivation to not "play with his new toy" and cause some damage, even if psychological to her. Again, one of those problems they have gotten themselves into it. Either they make Ramsay a softie or Sansa a survivor of his abuse, one of them will end up ruined as a character.