[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XII - New direction

[TeamLemonCakeBraavos]

I think Sophie didn't rate it a 10 because when the interviewer asked her to rate the scene with the scale being the Red Wedding is 10. Still doesn't tell me what the 6 might be except that Sansa will not be killed

I'm not sure where you got the "psychological" part - he said "we do some terrible things to some lovely people"

I haven't seen past episode1 though I have some small hopes from the book too but they don't really follow characterization in the show so... Anyway here's what Jeyne says to Theon when he comes to collect her for the wedding - “He knows who I am, though. Who I really am. I see it when he looks at me. He looks so angry, even when he smiles, but it’s not my fault. They say he likes to hurt people.” Jeyne feels Ramsay is angry that she is a fake so maybe he could be more reserved with the real deal.

But I don't know who else Ramsay's new plaything that he enjoys tormenting that will really upset people will be except maybe Brienne or Pod and Sansa seems to be more likely if they actually get married.

The only thing that gives me hope here is that Sansa is a Stark so that should equal main character. It's very clear from watching the show and interviews with D$D that they do not view these characters as pov characters anymore and they have no problem with character deviations.

That could be really really good if told well under the right circumstances. But I would think if Myranda becomes a problem for Ramsay he would just torture and/or kill her and even so she does not qualify as the new plaything that Ramsay enjoys tormenting.

I agree it's not certain but it seems likely. I'm just trying to prepare myself, and since I don't drink but plan on having some wine for this scene just incase, I need to know which episode to get tipsy for. sigh

-Michael Mc, says the "psychological" part in a red carpet interview. I want to say it was at the London premiere, but I'm not 100% sure. I just know that he says "psychological" because I made a note of it.

-I don't think he's simply 'reserved' with the real deal, I think he's enamored with the real deal. An unsullied friend of mine--when I was discussing all of this with her--says to me, "I don't think he'll hurt her. Did you see how excited he was? He's not going to hurt her." Now, obviously, this is Ramsay we're talking about (so anything is possible) but if her perception of their interactions are that he's excited...then that must be what the show is trying to portray to the general audience. I think that sort of characterization puts him in the Harry The Heir category and not the Ramsay/Jeyne Poole category.

-His new plaything could very well be Myranda, as he has yet to harm her in any way. She would be a "new" toy to him as much as Theon once was, and that Tansy girl was from last season. If "new" means a new person, Myranda still fits that description as tormenting her would be "new" to him.

-Sansa IS a main character (I'm perplexed as to why people want to claim that she isn't. If she wasn't, they would have sat her out like they did with Bran). That she would be described as a "plaything" puts her on the same level as Shae or Ros or some other low level character. When has any MAIN character been described in such a way (i.e. a "plaything")?

Once again, I'm not saying that her being raped/tortured by Ramsay could never happen. I am a FIRM believer that ANYTHING is possible at this point, especially since no one knows anymore. But when I hear Sophie describe this season...or when I hear/read other actors talk about her storyline this season, she is consistently described in terms of being stronger and better than before. A fighter in her own right. I think of when Kit talks about Sansa this season and says, "Whereas Sansa's always been the down beaten one, the one's who's had a really hard time, she starts to fight back which is really interesting." Or Finn Jones saying, "You see her becoming a woman in this tough, hard world." Those kinds of descriptions are not in line with a re-victimised Sansa.

But well, I guess we'll know when we know. :dunno: My point, I suppose, is that there are other options out there that aren't totally "gloom and doom".

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

IMHO, Three things I will not abide about this new Sansa arc:

1. Being physically tortured and/or raped by Ramsay. Mental cruelty? Ok. But having her brutalized? No.

2. Having Theon "prep" her like he did Jeyne in the books. Too much.

3. Sansa willingly losing her virginity to Littlefinger? Absolutely intolerable.

If her arc isn't one of pretend meekness leading to bloody revenge for her brother and mother, and reduces her to yet an even more pathetic and abused victim, then whatever else happens to her is dead to me.

Didn't Sophie say her job was to 'hold on' for her brothers? I guess that means she knows Bran and Rickon are alive at some point and she is enduring to restore them to their home and inheritance.

Why would Littlefinger bring her to WF where she can be tortured?

People over-estimate Littlefinger, even in the books. He is making moves in the books completely ignorant to how the Northerners think and the plans they have. What is to say he will do any better here? Robb didn't even know what Ramsey was when he had Roose send him to Winterfell.

[Hath4]

-Michael Mc, says the "psychological" part in a red carpet interview. I want to say it was at the London premiere, but I'm not 100% sure. I just know that he says "psychological" because I made a note of it.

-I don't think he's simply 'reserved' with the real deal, I think he's enamored with the real deal. An unsullied friend of mine--when I was discussing all of this with her--says to me, "I don't think he'll hurt her. Did you see how excited he was? He's not going to hurt her." Now, obviously, this is Ramsay we're talking about (so anything is possible) but if her perception of their interactions are that he's excited...then that must be what the show is trying to portray to the general audience. I think that sort of characterization puts him in the Harry The Heir category and not the Ramsay/Jeyne Poole category.

-His new plaything could very well be Myranda, as he has yet to harm her in any way. She would be a "new" toy to him as much as Theon once was, and that Tansy girl was from last season. If "new" means a new person, Myranda still fits that description as tormenting her would be "new" to him.

-Sansa IS a main character (I'm perplexed as to why people want to claim that she isn't. If she wasn't, they would have sat her out like they did with Bran). That she would be described as a "plaything" puts her on the same level as Shae or Ros or some other low level character. When has any MAIN character been described in such a way (i.e. a "plaything")?

Once again, I'm not saying that her being raped/tortured by Ramsay could never happen. I am a FIRM believer that ANYTHING is possible at this point, especially since no one knows anymore. But when I hear Sophie describe this season...or when I hear/read other actors talk about her storyline this season, she is consistently described in terms of being stronger and better than before. A fighter in her own right. I think of when Kit talks about Sansa this season and says, "Whereas Sansa's always been the down beaten one, the one's who's had a really hard time, she starts to fight back which is really interesting." Or Finn Jones saying, "You see her becoming a woman in this tough, hard world." Those kinds of descriptions are not in line with a re-victimised Sansa.

But well, I guess we'll know when we know. :dunno: My point, I suppose, is that there are other options out there that aren't totally "gloom and doom".

ramsay is a psychopath, but he is not stupid, he knows he has to pretend to be nice in public. No harm comes to jeyne when her and ramsay are in public. In the books he sweeps jeyne of her feet and carries her from the gods wood after they are married. He knows how to put on a good show. Once the marriage happens, though he gets to have her alone, the psycho comes out. also myranda can not qualify as new she has been on the show for three years know.

[sweetsunray]

ramsay is a psychopath, but he is not stupid, he knows he has to pretend to be nice in public. No harm comes to jeyne when her and ramsay are in public. In the books he sweeps jeyne of her feet and carries her from the gods wood after they are married. He knows how to put on a good show. Once the marriage happens, though he gets to have her alone, the psycho comes out. also myranda can not qualify as new she has been on the show for three years know.

One of the things psychopaths are best skilled in, is masking who they are. So, he could pretty much fool Sansa, Theon (as we saw), and other with a charming, sympathetic face and manners. Even those who know what my ex truly was because of his actions to me and others, still remember what a super sympathetic, social bloke he was. You warmed to him instantly. You'd invite him home without ever thinking twice about it. And even if money goes missing, you still think "can't be him!". And their masks can be very much personalized for each target: different facial mimics, different voice use, different body language ... a human chameleon. You can't find out (if you're normal), unless you know them well enough to realize that things are being said and done regularly that just don't add up at all. Unless you know a psychopath's tells. Psychopaths actually often for a moment say or do something jarring (a huh? or WTF-moment), even at first meeting them. It's something small and seemingly insignificant, however usually related to boundary stuff (your boundaries). They're testing you then to see what you will do with it: most people let it pass trying to be polite or forgive later and go the cognitive dissonance route. If you do that, they know they can toy with you. But if you know about these tells, the red flag behaviour is actually very recognizable, for the simple reason that normal, empathic people simply would never do that, certainly not when getting to know someone, let alone a first meeting.

So, it's normal that normal people wouldn't have a clue about Ramsay. But I don't buy that for LF. I pretty much consider LF a psychopath as well (though he's a much more pragmatic one). So, he's been using masks all of his life too, and he drops little tells here, there and everywhere too. He'd know what Ramsay is at first or second meeting, because he'd almost immediately recognize the tactics. Spaths recognize other spaths without a problem: after all they're the sole ones of human kind who's mind works equally alien. The sole mistake they'll make about each other is that both will consider themselves the smarter one of the two. At least one of them will be wrong about that. In the end, one shark will eat the other one.So, for me, if LF doesn't have a clue about Ramsay after meeting him, then that's just not at all credible to me.

[Grail King]

A long wait for 5,6,7,8,9 and 10 just because they really changed Sansa story line.

So criticism aside the writers / producers did their part and it's most likely different but the same as GRRM vision.

If she learns about her brothers I expect in book it may be a god-woods dream from Bran, in show it be Theon.

[Nefertari]

Well, i think it's common knowledge that the show will be different from the books, for all we know it could even have a different ending, and i'm fine with it, it's another work and to expect to have exactly the same things is weird, it wouldn't be so interesting if the show would spoiler us about future events, and it would be boring if the show is 100% accurate about the books, removing the shock/curiosity from books fans that already know the events, so they are sure about the plot shield of some characters.

One of the things psychopaths are best skilled in, is masking who they are. So, he could pretty much fool Sansa, Theon (as we saw), and other with a charming, sympathetic face and manners. Even those who know what my ex truly was because of his actions to me and others, still remember what a super sympathetic, social bloke he was. You warmed to him instantly. You'd invite him home without ever thinking twice about it. And even if money goes missing, you still think "can't be him!". And their masks can be very much personalized for each target: different facial mimics, different voice use, different body language ... a human chameleon. You can't find out (if you're normal), unless you know them well enough to realize that things are being said and done regularly that just don't add up at all. Unless you know a psychopath's tells. Psychopaths actually often for a moment say or do something jarring (a huh? or WTF-moment), even at first meeting them. It's something small and seemingly insignificant, however usually related to boundary stuff (your boundaries). They're testing you then to see what you will do with it: most people let it pass trying to be polite or forgive later and go the cognitive dissonance route. If you do that, they know they can toy with you. But if you know about these tells, the red flag behaviour is actually very recognizable, for the simple reason that normal, empathic people simply would never do that, certainly not when getting to know someone, let alone a first meeting.

So, it's normal that normal people wouldn't have a clue about Ramsay. But I don't buy that for LF. I pretty much consider LF a psychopath as well (though he's a much more pragmatic one). So, he's been using masks all of his life too, and he drops little tells here, there and everywhere too. He'd know what Ramsay is at first or second meeting, because he'd almost immediately recognize the tactics. Spaths recognize other spaths without a problem: after all they're the sole ones of human kind who's mind works equally alien. The sole mistake they'll make about each other is that both will consider themselves the smarter one of the two. At least one of them will be wrong about that. In the end, one shark will eat the other one.So, for me, if LF doesn't have a clue about Ramsay after meeting him, then that's just not at all credible to me.

I agree.

Also Joeffrey was a Psychopath, he knew how to act galant and he did it with Sansa and Margaery, he stopped faking when Sansa lost her "value" (no family to protect her-and no authority above him to stop to act him as he pleases), he kept faking with Margaery because of her family and money.

I think LF knows very well about Ramsay, and we don't know what LF exactly wants from Sansa, in my opinion he's using her, to his eyes she's simply another Lysa, a Cat substitue, and that's it, or maybe he even wants her to have a trauma, to be seen as her savious, to bond her to him even more...who knows, LF creeps me and i always hope nobody ever trust him.

I really doubt Sansa could manipulate him just by open her legs, because she's not Cersei and he's not that stupid.

[Lord Damian]

I wonder what that message LF got that he tucked under his sleave while with Sansa and Royce? Who was it from? My guess, it was from Roose, or Stannis or simply spies that know that people are headed that way towards the Vale, looking for Sansa.

[rayarts]

I stay firm: Sansa will not get raped (especially not at WF). There are pawns stationed all around her,

who are her allies, that speaks against that fate. And she isn't naive little victimized Sansa anymore.

Nope, the "horror" part will be something else.

[Grail King]

I wonder what that message LF got that he tucked under his sleave while with Sansa and Royce? Who was it from? My guess, it was from Roose, or Stannis or simply spies that know that people are headed that way towards the Vale, looking for Sansa.

I think Roose to the "agreement'

[Grail King]

I stay firm: Sansa will not get raped (especially not at WF). There are pawns stationed all around her,

who are her allies, that speaks against that fate. And she isn't naive little victimized Sansa anymore.

Nope, the "horror" part will be something else.

She see's first hand what R did to R( T ), or maybe they bring in jeyne poole who she hasn't seen from first episode.

[Elaena Targaryen]

-Michael Mc, says the "psychological" part in a red carpet interview. I want to say it was at the London premiere, but I'm not 100% sure. I just know that he says "psychological" because I made a note of it.

I've seen that interview too and I do not recall that, I've tried searching but I can't find it... it's just strange to me that he would specify only psychological torture in reference to "we do some terrible things to some lovely people" when we also know from clips that there are some fully flayed people... these are the Boltons and D$D love to shock viewers.

-I don't think he's simply 'reserved' with the real deal, I think he's enamored with the real deal. An unsullied friend of mine--when I was discussing all of this with her--says to me, "I don't think he'll hurt her. Did you see how excited he was? He's not going to hurt her." Now, obviously, this is Ramsay we're talking about (so anything is possible) but if her perception of their interactions are that he's excited...then that must be what the show is trying to portray to the general audience. I think that sort of characterization puts him in the Harry The Heir category and not the Ramsay/Jeyne Poole category.

I'll take your word for it since I haven't seen it but my initial thought was that of course he's excited. Ramsay's getting everything that he wants - legitimacy, a lordship, power, a beautiful bride (for whatever purpose), control over a Stark, and so on. I guess though Ramsay's just excited over Sansa as a person and now wants a happy marriage with the love of his life. I just can't forget his excitement when playing with Reek...

-His new plaything could very well be Myranda, as he has yet to harm her in any way. She would be a "new" toy to him as much as Theon once was, and that Tansy girl was from last season. If "new" means a new person, Myranda still fits that description as tormenting her would be "new" to him.

Agree to disagree. I feel if it's not Sansa it has to be Brienne or Pod since Alfie says "There's this one character who crosses both of our paths, and [Ramsay] certainly enjoys tormenting this character"

Sansa IS a main character (I'm perplexed as to why people want to claim that she isn't. If she wasn't, they would have sat her out like they did with Bran).

I'm not saying she isn't a main character I'm saying I don't trust D$D to know that she is, except for the fact that she is a Stark and is probably vital to the endgame. It's not like they've handled her character very well so far though.

To add in the Oxford video interview Benoiff was shocked when he found out Sam was a pov character and asked which book then Weiss said they have stopped thinking of them as pov characters. Benoiff said later that many things influence deviations and how casting has caused character deviations like with Osha and Cersei.

That she would be described as a "plaything" puts her on the same level as Shae or Ros or some other low level character. When has any MAIN character been described in such a way (i.e. a "plaything")?

This may not be the best example but I think D$D consider Theon at least an upper tier character, if not a main, and he has certainly been called a plaything, even in the show.

But when I hear Sophie describe this season...or when I hear/read other actors talk about her storyline this season, she is consistently described in terms of being stronger and better than before. A fighter in her own right. I think of when Kit talks about Sansa this season and says, "Whereas Sansa's always been the down beaten one, the one's who's had a really hard time, she starts to fight back which is really interesting." Or Finn Jones saying, "You see her becoming a woman in this tough, hard world." Those kinds of descriptions are not in line with a re-victimised Sansa.

I take a different perspective here, if things are going so well for her why does she need to fight? I mean - of course Sansa wants Winterfell back and would want revenge on the Boltons - but she is walking into the Land of the Flayed and if the show runners are not very, very careful how they handle this it can go so wrong on so many levels. That includes everything from them taking things to far victimizing Sansa all the way to having her waltz in to stupid people bowing and scraping at her feet while she undermines them all. And we should all know by now that the show is into the shock factor so things will be ugly it's just a matter of how far will they go.

Again I'm just trying to prepare myself for the worst cause that's how I roll, everyone's different. I'm not trying to convince anyone I'm just venting.

[Florina Laufeyson]

:agree:

I think that the entire point of giving Show Ramsey a girlfriend is to demonstrate that Ramsey is able to withhold from torturing women if he finds them amusing in other ways.

Maybe now when Ramsey gets a new beautiful (and nobleborn to boot) girl who pretends to like him and his hobbies, he'll grow bored of Myranda and turn againt her. Sansa will see this, she'll know that she's in danger because Ramsey may change his mind about her any day, but she'll be sucessful in playing him until she gets a chance to escape.

That's my take on it. :dunno:

I feel like she was named Myranda for a reason. While i dont think shes the real replacement for the Myranda in the books, i think her role is similar in a way. Like, according to Sansa's new chapter, Myranda is kinda snooping around. Maybe show!Myranda plays a role of getting in the way of some sort of plot. I dunno. Personally, i feel like Sansa could manipulate Ramsay enough to destroy him.

Didn't Sophie say her job was to 'hold on' for her brothers? I guess that means she knows Bran and Rickon are alive at some point and she is enduring to restore them to their home and inheritance.

Given how Theon is likely to inform Sansa about her brothers' escape, i wouldnt be surprised.

[mirthula]

ok i am going to vent out here please take no offence i apologize in advance.

when is sansa going to finally hit her breaking point. i am only going to talk about show sansa. here is the thing she is the most different out of all the stark children, because all the other kids are off on their own journey are on their own path of their choosing right or wrong.

rob chose to rebel and fight for his father and even marry the wife of his choosing and got himself murdered damn the consequence. jon chose the night watch and didn't break his vow to return to his family and become lord commander and supports the wildlings damn the consequence. arya chose the faceless men damn the consequence. bran chose to go up deep north meet white walkers to fulfil his destiny damn the consequence. even baby rickon chose to be with a willing woman trust her to take to him to an unknown place instead of going to his brother jon damn the consequence. see a pattern here rest of the stark kids have made their choices end what they might be good or bad but atleast they all have made their choices.

sansa was the most naive of the stark kids so it took her longer to grow up where the rest of them are more daring in nature. we are five seasons into the story what significant difference is there in sansa character she still lets others decide her fate. her father dying and joffrey beating should have snapped her out of it but it did not. sandor asked her to come with him but she relies on stannis saving her and she gets screwed. she goes on to marry tyrion i want to know what would have happened if she refused to would they have drugged her and dragged her to the sept. tyrion says they need to consummate the marriage and she strips for him why didn't she just say no to begin with it is her good fortune that tyrion was a good guy. this whole thing with little finger and bolton is just repeating the cycle of others making decisions for her and she allowing it to happen because she is unable to stand her ground. i think i just realized her problem she fears death too much that is why she constantly gets bullied. the moment she stands up for herself damn the consequences is when her character will finally grow up. i think poor sansa is stuck in the rut of thinking there is still a knight in shinning armour out there who is going to come save her and she needs to realize she needs to save herself.

i have read the posts of r and r happening ramsay and rape two horrors to poor sansa. i am sad to think the writers feel they need to do that to her to finally push her over the edge. we don't want to see that happen to any character but she definitely need to start calling her own shots i want that much for her she might still get abused by bolton but atleast she will go down fighting. she gave her heart to joffrey he crushed it, she gave her trust to littlefinger he betrays her, if she decided to give her body to bolton in the hopes of uniting the north well we all know how that is going to end up for her. so ultimate redemption for sansa character to realize that all that shines is not gold, her knight in shinning armour can be a man with a burned face with brutal speech or a dwarf with a horrid last name, she just failed to recognize them.

i also don't think it makes any sense why little finger would give up sansa it looks like a dumb move. why should sansa marry bolton north is already hers. marriage is suitable in westeros when you want to marry into a rich family or two powerful houses want to unite. but the north hates bolton does it not why would the other bannermen support bolton if sansa returns. winterfell belongs to sansa without her brothers so shouldn't bolton be proposing marriage to sansa they need her why is sansa thru littlefinger proposing marriage to bolton. i am confused on why littlefinger would be this stupid. is this a loop hole by the writers to create drama because it is not consistent with westerosi politics.

but by saying all that i also realize vale is the most boring place in the books i hated those chapters. winterfell and the wall is where all the action is happening so i can understand why D and D did this. if sansa stayed in the vale it just would have been too boring because no one cares about that the characters that are there. my unsullied friends get so excited when they see winterfell because they understand its importance it is the home of the starks the heroes of the story.

[NymeriaWarriorQueen]

I have come to the conclusion that Show Sansa will just be replacing fAyra (Jeyne Poole) as Ramsay's bride and that Reek (Theon) will be playing the same role.

The only unknown for me will be whether or not Sansa is broken by the experience or empowered with strength and resolve to exact revenge on Ramsay.

[mirthula]

It's called "dissociation" (not disassociation).

When animals (including humans) are confronted with a hightened stress, threat, etc there are 3 possible behavioural responses: fight, flight, or freeze. And though people can show all three of those responses to a threat depending on the situation, there will be a preference.

Arya's most natural response is "fight". It's why she often gets into trouble at home. And it's her initial response when Meryn Trant shows up; her initial response at Baelor's sept when they are about to behead Ned. The fight response is her automatic response. There are two great advantages about the fight response: a) you remain close to your emotions, although they may be masked by anger emotion on top of it b ) the fight response is the most pro-active response, because you don't wait for the danger to come to you (aka best defense is offense). Syrio Forel's greatest impact on Arya is that he taught her that fighting is not always the best response, but that fleeing can be better "Not today". It isn't Arya's preferred response, but she has learned to incorporate it rather quickly even. Flight has similar advantages - you remain with your emotions (fear), and it's a very active response. There's a reason why Arya always manages to get out of the worst situations: she's pro-active, stays in touch with her emotions and therefore her intuitions about danger, she's not kidding herself about her might, and she makes other people help her, whether they want to or not...That's why Arya managed to reach Braavos. And it's why I don't believe she'll ever be "no one": Arya does not dissociate, she stays in touch with her emotions, and that is the basis of retaining identity.

Now if we compare that to Sansa: her sole response is "freeze". She responds like a deer staring at car's headlight. She loses time by overthinking stuff too much, by observing. What is the use of having all the observed info, when it gets you into a collision? That's why I said that Sansa prevents herself from daring to escape. Sure, she wants to escape. Sure, she wants to choose the wisest and safest escape option. And that seems smart, right? No, it isn't always the smartest. Just get out of dodge, instead of trying to overthink an oncoming headlight. You can wing it later on to escape again, if you need to. Sansa is really inflexible in her response to danger, and the main reason for that is because she dissociates. Yes, she has all the feelings... she just doesn't allow herself to feel those feeligs, she observes them. Makes her candidate material for an ID crisis. If she were to train with the FM in Braavos, I'd bet she'd excel in ridding herself of her identity faster and better than Arya can.

omg that is perfect how you analyzed sansa character. you are right sansa doesn't have the natural fight spirit in her. it not just arya all the other stark kids have it to a varying degree. sansa observes and wants to chose the best option out because she is too careful and that is why she is still a prisoner because her instincts are all wrong. i said in my other post her problem might she wants to live too badly. where as the other stark children do what needs to be done regardless the consequence to their own life, because they are natural fighters, live or die atleast go down fighting.

[mirthula]

But we are taking into consideration also the actors hints in interviews.

They said Ramsay will be even more cruel than before... if Sansa can turn him into her purry kitten where we will see him cruel?

Sansa will manouvered to torture other girls instead? So that's not Ramsay the cruel one but Sansa.

They also said it will be traumatic for Sansa this season, how eactly turning bad guy Ramsay into nice guy BFF who will wait her to be ready to bed her(IF he will marry her) is traumatic?

Just to watch Ramsay torturing other pople isn't enough, this girl saw her father die in front of her, she knows already psychological torture.

And everyone here seems to hope he'll torture Miranda, that alone says much, Alfie said that what Ramsay will done won't be taken nice by viewers.

But here is the problem they have built up ramsay as the ultimate psycho even worst than joffrey because he is a smart psycho so now how can they use sansa to deconstruct that image of his. Ramsay is not a man to be fooled by batting of eye lids he is jus too messed up for that. When has sansa used sex to get what she wants she couldn't even take margery advice and do it with tyrion. irony here being that would have saved her from a bolton marriage because her marriage to tyrion would be legal if it was consummated anyone know the rules of westerosi marriages how legal is polygamy. so we know sansa she just doesn't have it in her to use sex as a weapon or for that matter fake love. Sansa is the ultimate victim that the other characters parade around to torment.

i like ramsay bolton i mean not like what he does, he is the ultimate bad guy there is a dread in the show whenever he appears it is great for drama purpose you need evil characters if they whitewash him into a love sick puppy that will just be too boring. now we saw what happened with joffrey, joffrey did not hide his cruel nature from margery he was pretending to be nice to her but still a dick to others.

i feel sansa hasn't grown much to deal with someone like ramsay bolton not even margery would have that talent. ramsay is a lot more smarter than joffrey, we have seen so far even roose can't control ramsay not if ramsay doesn't want to. when you are fearless, smart, a good fighter you are a lot more dangerous psychopath.

[Cas Stark]

Show Ramsay is probably less psycho that Show Joff. He only kills and flays his enemies that we have seen, with the single exception of his ex gal pal, who he fed to his dogs.

Show Joff orders whores to beat each other, crossbowed Ros for the fun of it, had that guy's tongue cut out, has Sansa beaten, has all of Bob's bastards killed, threatens his uncle and Sansa constantly....

[Mladen]

It's called "dissociation" (not disassociation).

When animals (including humans) are confronted with a hightened stress, threat, etc there are 3 possible behavioural responses: fight, flight, or freeze. And though people can show all three of those responses to a threat depending on the situation, there will be a preference.

Arya's most natural response is "fight". It's why she often gets into trouble at home. And it's her initial response when Meryn Trant shows up; her initial response at Baelor's sept when they are about to behead Ned. The fight response is her automatic response. There are two great advantages about the fight response: a) you remain close to your emotions, although they may be masked by anger emotion on top of it b ) the fight response is the most pro-active response, because you don't wait for the danger to come to you (aka best defense is offense). Syrio Forel's greatest impact on Arya is that he taught her that fighting is not always the best response, but that fleeing can be better "Not today". It isn't Arya's preferred response, but she has learned to incorporate it rather quickly even. Flight has similar advantages - you remain with your emotions (fear), and it's a very active response. There's a reason why Arya always manages to get out of the worst situations: she's pro-active, stays in touch with her emotions and therefore her intuitions about danger, she's not kidding herself about her might, and she makes other people help her, whether they want to or not...That's why Arya managed to reach Braavos. And it's why I don't believe she'll ever be "no one": Arya does not dissociate, she stays in touch with her emotions, and that is the basis of retaining identity.

Now if we compare that to Sansa: her sole response is "freeze". She responds like a deer staring at car's headlight. She loses time by overthinking stuff too much, by observing. What is the use of having all the observed info, when it gets you into a collision? That's why I said that Sansa prevents herself from daring to escape. Sure, she wants to escape. Sure, she wants to choose the wisest and safest escape option. And that seems smart, right? No, it isn't always the smartest. Just get out of dodge, instead of trying to overthink an oncoming headlight. You can wing it later on to escape again, if you need to. Sansa is really inflexible in her response to danger, and the main reason for that is because she dissociates. Yes, she has all the feelings... she just doesn't allow herself to feel those feeligs, she observes them. Makes her candidate material for an ID crisis. If she were to train with the FM in Braavos, I'd bet she'd excel in ridding herself of her identity faster and better than Arya can.

Arguing that Sansa should or could have gone out of the door any time she wanted without some proper thinking is plain nonsense and complete disregard of what text actually says. Arya learned to observe, listen and then act. Your assessment of Arya is plainly wrong since it focuses solely on what she was at the beginning of AGOT - instinctive person who acted without much thought. She learned better. She learned to wait patiently, to keep low, she learned to know when to attack. So, the entire idea of how Arya is doing it right and Sansa wrong based on what Arya was in one point of her life (and even more, surpassed it) is refuted by countless other situation. Generally, your snippets of analysis are constantly lacking some analysis past AGOT. Characters do evolve, you know.

Your bet is also not standing any ground. Sansa's identity has been challenged throughout her imprisonment in KL and more with LF. Throughout countless beatings, rape threats and traumas, we see Sansa clinging to her family the same way Arya clings to Needle, which then represents her family. Overall, Stark children, from Jon and Robb, over Sansa, Arya, Bran to Rickon have very strong identity.

[Mladen]

omg that is perfect how you analyzed sansa character. you are right sansa doesn't have the natural fight spirit in her. it not just arya all the other stark kids have it to a varying degree. sansa observes and wants to chose the best option out because she is too careful and that is why she is still a prisoner because her instincts are all wrong. i said in my other post her problem might she wants to live too badly. where as the other stark children do what needs to be done regardless the consequence to their own life, because they are natural fighters, live or die atleast go down fighting.

No, Sansa does have a natural fighting spirit in her. But she fights the only way she knows. She is a natural survivor. Sansa's character is basically 1.01 in how to survive in a hostile situation. This is what is so problematic in those Sansa "analyses" we see. People don't see resistance unless they see sword in someone's hands. The subtle ways in which one person can defend herself are often missed. That doesn't mean they don't exist. Just that some people are not seeing it.

[Hath4]

Show Ramsay is probably less psycho that Show Joff. He only kills and flays his enemies that we have seen, with the single exception of his ex gal pal, who he fed to his dogs.

Show Joff orders whores to beat each other, crossbowed Ros for the fun of it, had that guy's tongue cut out, has Sansa beaten, has all of Bob's bastards killed, threatens his uncle and Sansa constantly....

ramsay is clearly a psychopathic monster on the show way worse than Joffrey. in the books most of his actions occur off page. If anything the show has moved most of his atrocities on screen. We never actually see ramsay hunt anyone in the book. Joffrey is just a boy compared to ramsay.