(Book Spoilers) S5 ep 1 concerning the burning

[TheTowerOfJoy]

He's dead, IMO. No glamour plot, I kind of hope they keep the glamours out entirely. Way too Harry Potter

Ciarin Hinds is a brilliant actor, and his scenes in this episode demonstrated that. But TV Show Mance is not as fleshed out as Book Mance, and the writers probably figured there's no point trying to fix that now, especially when there's another character more recognizable to the Unsullied audiences who can easily take on whatever role Mance was supposed to fulfil in the story. (That being Tormund)

Simple case of character economy.

Agreed. Tormund can lead the Wildlings, and Theon can help Sansa escape instead of fArya, really no reason for those two things.

What worries me though is the future of some of these characters. What if Mance has a big part to play in WoW? I suppose Tormund could do it, but it might not come across the same. Is the Horn of Joramun stuff completely gone or will they find out about it in Hardhome? Why have Rhaegar and Lyanna barely been mentioned? It's going to seem like a pretty pointless reveal of Jon Snow's parentage when the majority of the audience will be like "who?".

[EddardsHead]

In the second trailer for this season Tormund is seen in the battle at Hardhome so I think they scrapped the plot, would be too difficult for the small minded unsullied to handle apparently

[Sword of the Morgan]

I'm pretty sure they aren't doing the glamor plot. Mance is dead. At least he had some great dialogue in this episode.

This. The glamour is too hard to pull off on screen.

[Hiram McDrogon]

In the second trailer for this season Tormund is seen in the battle at Hardhome so I think they scrapped the plot, would be too difficult for the small minded unsullied to handle apparently

You know, not everything D&D do is because they consider their audience to be idiots. Every once in a while, just on occasion, they may make a change because they think their TV story would be better served by doing something different. The fake deaths can get a little out of hand in the series - personally I'm glad they seem to be drawing from that well less often.

[EddardsHead]

You know, not everything D&D do is because they consider their audience to be idiots. Every once in a while, just on occasion, they may make a change because they think their TV story would be better served by doing something different. The fake deaths can get a little out of hand in the series - personally I'm glad they seem to be drawing from that well less often.

I understand that, I just don't think its the case in this situation. Having mance die and come back to life and explaining glamours would confuse some of the audience, so they sinply said screw it and killed Mance probably because Brienne has no plot because of the Stoneheart cut and will likely go North and fill in for Abel at winterfell

[rocksniffer]

I agree with the OP.

It's either 1 of 2 things. Mance and Tormund have been glamor swapped, or Tormund is going to fill Mance' shoes as the Wildling leader.

I believe this is the answer...and sadly Mance is dead as good old Ned...sorry i just couldn't resist

I'm pretty convinced they've scrapped the glamor swap plot, I took his expression as he was watching someone he admired die a terrible death. I'm sure it wasn't great for him. That being said, I was most drawn to his expression out of all the people they showed; it caught my attention. The only other I'd say was eye catching was Selyse's look of pure ecstasy. :ack:

and shireen's closed eyes

I think mance is dead, the only thing that gives me a little pause is that melisandre was the one who did the burning while in the other burnings it was soldiers who lit the fire. Is it possible that melisandre's direct role hints at the swap? maybe but unlikely.

perhaps... we did see her naked and wet talking about the lies and trickery involved with her potions and powders last season maybe she just made people think they saw a tower of flame blast up into sky... though the arrow looked pretty real

[dielsis]

Why have Rhaegar and Lyanna barely been mentioned? It's going to seem like a pretty pointless reveal of Jon Snow's parentage when the majority of the audience will be like "who?".

This is probably because Jon's parentage isn't that important of a thing. Looking only at the books, it'd be pretty crappy if one of the most important arcs of his story was one he wasn't aware of. In the show - and now the books, unless Martin was being 100% honest - he's traveling down the required path based on his own merits instead of whether his origin is your username or Ned was really just incredibly hard on himself for having cheated on Cat with Wylla and overwhelmed by what happened to his sister.

I think we're just so hell bent on being proven right about the R+L theory because of all these years spent speculating so we're attaching extra significance. I know this thread is marked "book spoilers" but I'm still just going to wrap this next part in the tag:

His main arc should be about balance. Winterfell's fate, and how the NW needs to be less rigid in order to survive. The clash against the Others, and using what he's gone through to defeat them. I think that's probably the Azor Ahai stuff, even if only in a representative portrayal… though a true flaming sword would be pretty badass.

I hope that makes some sense.

[TheMaester]

How many of you believe Jon is Azor Ahai and that he must cut Danys heart out to reforge Lightbringer and save the north?, That Bran will be inside of Drogon and Jon will be his rider...Jon and Dany have to meet up and marry for all this to tie together, Stannis will die, Poor Jaime Lannister (my fav character will die). Brienne will be Danys head of the queens guard but the most freakish thing of all will be Melisandre manipulating Jon to actually have to kill Dany if he wants to save mankind...

I just want dany to die. It will be so lame if the unkillable Dragon lady makes it to the end . I would rather have sam come back as a wizard and secure the iron throne with lightening bolts. XD

[Prince of the North]

Yeah, I don't think there was any glamor in this case. I believe Mance, in the show, is really dead and gone for the simple reason that if someone had been glamored as him they would have been screaming it to the heavens just as happened in the books. The show simply has to combine and eliminate characters and entire storylines. There's no way around it.

[DoctorSwerve]

Mance is dead. Melisandre's ruby didn't light up.

[Grayven]

I'm perfectly fine with Mance being dead. Didn't care for the Mance-as-bard in Winterfell, and the source material had too many fake deaths and switched identity plots as it was.

But purely from a show perspective, I don't get why Mance would refuse to bend the knee. Avoiding a death by burning, but keeping some measure of dignity and saving his people? All it would have taken was a simple "Tell Stannis I'll kneel.. in front of a chopping block. He'll have my vows, and my head." Very Mancey.

[YoungGriff89]

They did have a scene last season where Melisandre explained to Selyse she could use potions and cast illusions that way. Just saying.

[FreeParking]

Mance is dead guys. http://www.zap2it.com/blogs/game_of_thrones_season_5_premiere_mance_rayder_death_books_ciaran_hinds_interview-2015-04

[Frumpus]

They aren't doing Theon's ADwD storyline so there would have been no reason to bring Mance back as Abel.

I'm more curious as to whether they will bring Rattleshirt back for some scenes, since he's now apparently still alive.

[FreeParking]

They aren't doing Theon's ADwD storyline so there would have been no reason to bring Mance back as Abel.

I'm more curious as to whether they will bring Rattleshirt back for some scenes, since he's now apparently still alive.

You can see Rattleshirt in the trailers.

[Frumpus]

You can see Rattleshirt in the trailers.

Oh, that's pretty cool. I musta missed it.

[JonSnow4President]

This is probably because Jon's parentage isn't that important of a thing. Looking only at the books, it'd be pretty crappy if one of the most important arcs of his story was one he wasn't aware of. In the show - and now the books, unless Martin was being 100% honest - he's traveling down the required path based on his own merits instead of whether his origin is your username or Ned was really just incredibly hard on himself for having cheated on Cat with Wylla and overwhelmed by what happened to his sister.

I think we're just so hell bent on being proven right about the R+L theory because of all these years spent speculating so we're attaching extra significance. I know this thread is marked "book spoilers" but I'm still just going to wrap this next part in the tag:

His main arc should be about balance. Winterfell's fate, and how the NW needs to be less rigid in order to survive. The clash against the Others, and using what he's gone through to defeat them. I think that's probably the Azor Ahai stuff, even if only in a representative portrayal… though a true flaming sword would be pretty badass.

I hope that makes some sense.

I haven't watched any of the leaked episodes, but (show spoilerish)

...supposedly, there's a lot of R+L=J support in the first 4, judging by comments of people who have

[Red Rahloo Connington]

There are leaked episodes?

[Graven]

There are leaked episodes?

As far as i know, till ep. 4, beyond that i don't know.

[Shpati]

I think Thor will just be the new King-Beyond the wall, and they won't do the glamour plot.

If Mance were to return... I believe the show would've showed "Fake Mance" die begging like Janos died. In the books, I was like "wtf, why did Mance go out weeping like that, I thought he'd die like a boss". But I think it's clear that Mance is actually dead in the show and that's why they gave him a more honorable death with Snow putting a arrow in his heart.