[BOOK SPOILERS] The Portrayal of Loras

[sj4iy]

It is not solely about sex scene, it is about entire perception of the character who is nothing but gay slut. Loras has no trait. Not a single one.

Wow. That's horrible.

Sleeping with two guys makes him a gay slut? Do you even hear yourself? How about the fact that he's a knight...does that not count as a 'trait'? He's not terribly bright. That's a trait, even if it's not a flattering one. He loved Renly...that's another trait. He was jealous of Brienne...that's another. He's not one for conversation...there's another.

I've never once perceived Loras as anything like you describe. There's nothing to make one think that in the first place. I agree with some of the others that he hasn't been fleshed out all the way...but he wasn't in the books, either. The show is obviously setting him up for a bigger story than he had in the books, though. And I don't see how that's a bad thing at this point.

[Ser Gareth]

Wow. That's horrible.

Sleeping with two guys makes him a gay slut? Do you even hear yourself? How about the fact that he's a knight...does that not count as a 'trait'? He's not terribly bright. That's a trait, even if it's not a flattering one. He loved Renly...that's another trait. He was jealous of Brienne...that's another. He's not one for conversation...there's another.

I've never once perceived Loras as anything like you describe. There's nothing to make one think that in the first place. I agree with some of the others that he hasn't been fleshed out all the way...but he wasn't in the books, either. The show is obviously setting him up for a bigger story than he had in the books, though. And I don't see how that's a bad thing at this point.

I don't think so. He had a lot more stage time in the books with far better dialogue and relationships to other characters. More likely they're setting it up so that either he or his lover dies on screen so it can be chalked up as another shocking death.

TV Loras is bloody awful.

[teemo]

it's actually not the top comment anymore, sorry, but here it is:

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/32ez7w/spoilers_all_loras_the_waste/cqask4d

[The Fiddler]

It is not solely about sex scene, it is about entire perception of the character who is nothing but gay slut. Loras has no trait. Not a single one.

This. These are all the scenes portraying Loras in the show:

Season 1

- Jousts in the tourney

- Sleeps with Renly

Season 2

- Fights in the melee

- Sleeps with Renly

- Leads the Vanguard at the Blackwater

Season 3

- Sleeps with Olyvar (?)

- Talks brooches with Sansa

- Arranged to be married to Cersei

Season 4

- Eye fucked by Oberyn during the Purple Wedding

Season 5

- Sleeps with Olyvar

So his show character basically equates to being gay and him being a knight, the latter of which has become less important in the newer seasons. I do understand that they had to construct scenes for him, as Loras in the books isn't even really a secondary character, but every scene they've constructed after Season 2 consists of him sleeping with Olyvar (and thus reiterating that, yes, he's gay), acting stereotypical, and just hanging around... For no real reason. Especially after Tywin's death it literally makes no sense for him to still be in King's Landing since he, being the heir to Highgarden in the show, should theoretically return there, as I doubt the Cersei marriage pact is still in effect (since neither of them want it and by all regards it would hurt House Tyrell). But no, he remains in King's Landing to, what I'm assuming, be gay bashed by the Faith Militant later on.

[Florina Laufeyson]

it's actually not the top comment anymore, sorry, but here it is:

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/32ez7w/spoilers_all_loras_the_waste/cqask4d

Oh thank you! And oh geeze. Poor guy. He seemed so dead set on playing Loras like his book counterpart and is getting robbed of that. :tantrum:

[aFeastForDragons]

and just hanging around... For no real reason. Especially after Tywin's death it literally makes no sense for him to still be in King's Landing since he, being the heir to Highgarden in the show, should theoretically return there, as I doubt the Cersei marriage pact is still in effect (since neither of them want it and by all regards it would hurt House Tyrell). But no, he remains in King's Landing to, what I'm assuming, be gay bashed by the Faith Militant later on.

Hmmm thats a very interesting point. He complains about the place, the people and how he will be free of his future marriage to Cersei. Why would he still be in King's Landing.

[juanml82]

They've ruined his character as much as they've ruined pretty much all the Wildlings and the Blackfish. It was obvious they ruined his character the moment Renly died and within a couple of episodes Loras was banging someone else. Book Loras has the potential to be an exceptional Knight, is full of pride, is arrogant, competitive (to the point of being willing to cheat) but can also be noble, intelligent, loyal, romantic and chivalrous. Basically he may be cocky but he has depth. TV Loras is as shallow as a spoon, a bit sulky and comes across as being dumb. Really dumb.

Huh? When did he show "nobility" (whatever that means besides being the son of Mace Tyrell), intelligence or chivalry? He was in love with Renly Baratheon, he joined him in rebellion (if he didn't helped instigate it) against whom he believed was his rightful king, proceeded to murder two of his sworn brothers, fought under his brother's command at the Blackwater and then proceeded to become a glorified bodyguard who couldn't protect his king because his own grandmother (and probably his sister) decided to kill him without using a sword.

Oh, but he told Sansa a nice verse when he was in mourning for Renly. I should also mention we don't have a POV near Loras. For all we know, he did choose to bury his sorrows in the arms of other men.

[Asshat by the Shadow]

I'm just going to throw this out there, because nobody seems to have noticed, but Loras has been given (slightly) more development than people give D&D credit for. Think about how confident his character was in season 1 and 2 with Renly, later on with Olyvar, and his sarcastic remark to Jamie at the purple wedding. Compare that to his incredibly awkward interactions with Sansa when he thinks they might be betrothed, and with Cersei after they are betrothed. Even in this episode when he was trying to give Cersei his condolences and repeating how Tywin was a force to be reckoned with.

Loras is a character very much like Sansa, who hides behind a veil of courtesy in his public life. He appears dimwitted and awkward only when he's pretending to be something that he's not, but is very confident when he is in his element; i.e. when jousting, either on a horse or on a man. And, in this episode, he begins to break down that veil after realizing that it's not fooling anybody. Like I said, it's not much, but there is characterization there.

Not to mention, this scene sets up the Tyrell/Cersei/Faith plot, it name drops Dorne, and it even indicates the Cersei/Jaime (incest-y) parallel to Margaery/Loras without having to go into Cersei's thoughts

[lostinwesteros]

I like Loras but am not convinced that he's been allowed to noticeably develop as a character. He needs a good dose of "Oberyn-ism". As it stands now I think he's being used (and abused) by the show simply for explicit gay sex and to play the part of a mouse around Cersei. Enough already, we got the idea seasons ago.

[Darth Pipes]

It would be nice if they decided to do the storyline where Loras becomes a mentor to Tommen. I liked that storyline in AFFC.

But on the show, Loras's sole purpose is to be a token gay character and to be the butt of nonstop gay jokes. His only trait has been his the fact that he's gay.

[SeanF]

My understanding is that Book Loras is based on Piers Gaveston, who as well as being the supposed lover of Edward II, was arrogant, but also a superb warrior and tournament-fighter.

In the Show, I suspect they're trying to base Margaery on Anne Boleyn, and Loras on her brother George, who were found guilty on trumped-up charges of incest. There's a good deal of speculation that George was homosexual, though that didn't feature in his trial.

[alayne-stoneheart]

Okay so i definitely agree that Loras's character isn't that well developed in the show, but i think it's a little inaccurate to say he has no traits other than his sexuality.

I like book!Loras a lot more than show Loras, but I also think the show has a right to change stuff if it serves the plot. If Loras moving on from Renly and sleeping with Olivar leads to him and later Margaery being arrested, then it serves the plot.

Like others have said, Loras does have qualities other than being gay. He did have another scene in this episode, where he was talking to Cersei. His character in the show is awkward and a little dumb, which definitely gives him traits besides being gay, even if they aren't great ones. Sometimes I think that that people are often only satisfied with representation if the gay character is super likeable and important.

The show doesn't have time to completely flesh out every single minor character, and as it is Loras has been given quite a bit of plot, imo (him being the one to convince Renly to declare himself king, his betrothal to Sansa, his betrothal to Cersei, his interactions with Jaime and Marg, and this stuff with Olivar). As other people have said, if you think him having slept with two guys makes him a one dimensional gay slut, then that really says more about you than it does about the writing.

I don't want to say the show is perfect, and I do think it's focusing on his sexuality too much, but people are being a bit too extreme in their criticism imo.

Also, everyone wanted more male nudity lol so here it is.

[VladimirDulud]

It's about the performance.The scene is written in a way that could allow another actor to give it some nuance. Natalie Dormer takes a simple line and reads it in a manner that could be interpreted in more than one way - is it mischievous? possibly aloof? maybe sincere? sweet? You can't tell with Natalie's line readings most of the times, and that's what make the character work. So I think it's just Finn; he has issues not coming off as insufferable, and he rarely comes off as sincere, even when he's trying hard to do so, and i just don't think it's all the script's fault. :dunno:

[Valetudo]

Okay so i definitely agree that Loras's character isn't that well developed in the show, but i think it's a little inaccurate to say he has no traits other than his sexuality.

I like book!Loras a lot more than show Loras, but I also think the show has a right to change stuff if it serves the plot. If Loras moving on from Renly and sleeping with Olivar leads to him and later Margaery being arrested, then it serves the plot.

Like others have said, Loras does have qualities other than being gay. He did have another scene in this episode, where he was talking to Cersei. His character in the show is awkward and a little dumb, which definitely gives him traits besides being gay, even if they aren't great ones. Sometimes I think that that people are often only satisfied with representation if the gay character is super likeable and important.

The show doesn't have time to completely flesh out every single minor character, and as it is Loras has been given quite a bit of plot, imo (him being the one to convince Renly to declare himself king, his betrothal to Sansa, his betrothal to Cersei, his interactions with Jaime and Marg, and this stuff with Olivar). As other people have said, if you think him having slept with two guys makes him a one dimensional gay slut, then that really says more about you than it does about the writing.

I don't want to say the show is perfect, and I do think it's focusing on his sexuality too much, but people are being a bit too extreme in their criticism imo.

Also, everyone wanted more male nudity lol so here it is.

We are clearly exaggerating when we say that show Loras is nothing but a one dimensional gay slut, but you're also fooling yourself if you think that this is the best they could have done with the time they had to flesh out his character.

Yes they have given him interactions with other people and they even gave him a major role than on the books, but you can't deny than almost half his screen time is dedicated to show us he's gay and every time someone speaks about him, it's to make a gay joke.

If they had used even a fraction of this time to flesh out his character, then I'm sure that the reaction to this last scene would not have been the same.

Do you really think that having him sleeping with Olivar on season 3, Talking about fashion or flirting with Oberyn was a necessity?

Then there is this idea that if this leads to his arrest, then it's justified because it serves the plot.

If this is a justification, then lets take it to another level and lets analyse the rest of this intrigue:

-Loras being gay will lead him and then margaery to be arrested, OK, it works

then, you have the other side of this story:

-Cersei is arrested for fucking with Lancel and the Kettleblacks.

So, if all this time spent in showing or discussing Loras's sexuality on the show was necessary for the plot, why is it OK to only see Cersei having sex with Lancel on season 1?

What I'm trying to say is that viewers are not dumb. They don't need to be explicitly remembered of the same thing over and over again. Lets take Jaime for an example. He also has a defining trait on the show: he's missing a hand.

Is that what show viewers think as the defining trait of Jaime? Of course not. But it still is an important part of the story and is remembered to the audience every once in a while.

I don't understand how someone could be OK with the show having a character whose defining trait is being gay.

Imagine the uproar if Salladhor was shown has a guy who passes his time on his pimped boat eating fried chicken (black guy stereotypes) and that his defining trait was being black?

For me, the former is as offensive as the latter.

[Cashless Society]

I'm just going to throw this out there, because nobody seems to have noticed, but Loras has been given (slightly) more development than people give D&D credit for. Think about how confident his character was in season 1 and 2 with Renly, later on with Olyvar, and his sarcastic remark to Jamie at the purple wedding. Compare that to his incredibly awkward interactions with Sansa when he thinks they might be betrothed, and with Cersei after they are betrothed. Even in this episode when he was trying to give Cersei his condolences and repeating how Tywin was a force to be reckoned with.

Loras is a character very much like Sansa, who hides behind a veil of courtesy in his public life. He appears dimwitted and awkward only when he's pretending to be something that he's not, but is very confident when he is in his element; i.e. when jousting, either on a horse or on a man. And, in this episode, he begins to break down that veil after realizing that it's not fooling anybody. Like I said, it's not much, but there is characterization there.

I agree with all this.

[ambi76]

I'm just going to throw this out there, because nobody seems to have noticed, but Loras has been given (slightly) more development than people give D&D credit for. Think about how confident his character was in season 1 and 2 with Renly, later on with Olyvar, and his sarcastic remark to Jamie at the purple wedding. Compare that to his incredibly awkward interactions with Sansa when he thinks they might be betrothed, and with Cersei after they are betrothed. Even in this episode when he was trying to give Cersei his condolences and repeating how Tywin was a force to be reckoned with.

Loras is a character very much like Sansa, who hides behind a veil of courtesy in his public life. He appears dimwitted and awkward only when he's pretending to be something that he's not, but is very confident when he is in his element; i.e. when jousting, either on a horse or on a man. And, in this episode, he begins to break down that veil after realizing that it's not fooling anybody. Like I said, it's not much, but there is characterization there.

That's a reading of show!Loras that i can live with but the problem still remains that the scenes "he appears dimwitted and awkward">>>> the scenes were "he is very confident and in his element" and that wont change this season either I bet, with the Sparrows coming down on him before he even can really get in his element. My only hope now is they turn him into a total asshole (maybe he can get a black dress with fringed sleeves and become "Darth Loras") during the trail, because that would at least be something, but he'll probably just be chided by grandma for being a dumbass-sword-swallower).

So his show character basically equates to being gay and him being a knight, the latter of which has become less important in the newer seasons. I do understand that they had to construct scenes for him, as Loras in the books isn't even really a secondary character, but every scene they've constructed after Season 2 consists of him sleeping with Olyvar (and thus reiterating that, yes, he's gay), acting stereotypical, and just hanging around... For no real reason. Especially after Tywin's death it literally makes no sense for him to still be in King's Landing since he, being the heir to Highgarden in the show, should theoretically return there, as I doubt the Cersei marriage pact is still in effect (since neither of them want it and by all regards it would hurt House Tyrell). But no, he remains in King's Landing to, what I'm assuming, be gay bashed by the Faith Militant later on.

Emphazise mine. That's another big problem with Loras show arc. Hell, D&D could let him be the sluttiest giggolo of KL, the "silly boy" heir to Highgarden or whatever the fuck they want him to be but give me some fucking reasons for that stuff. Some context, something, anything? Indeed why does he hang out in Kings Landing at all? Because Cersei? (huh?) To protect Marg? (no can't have that on the show). Yeah, his role is hilariously more prominent than in the books but also utterly nonsensical.

[Winter's Knight]

So I was ranting at talking to my brother about the show and he's like,they could have had Loras using sex the way other people use alcohol to get over their grief. Show him engaging in it as a means to deaden his pain over losing Renly-you get to keep the sex scenes and show his continuing mourning.

Which just goes to show what a small change they'd need to make to give show!Loras some depth.

[ovis alba]

I think to some extent Loras' character is also a little bit a victim of the show trying to really focus on the women of the Tyrells. Olenna and Margaery are really supposed to be the strong characters that know how the "game" works and that manipulate their way through the whole politics, while the Tyrell men are basically supposed to be stand-in characters to be manipulated and to keep up the appearance.

[protar]

Wow. That's horrible.

Sleeping with two guys makes him a gay slut? Do you even hear yourself? How about the fact that he's a knight...does that not count as a 'trait'? He's not terribly bright. That's a trait, even if it's not a flattering one. He loved Renly...that's another trait. He was jealous of Brienne...that's another. He's not one for conversation...there's another.

I've never once perceived Loras as anything like you describe. There's nothing to make one think that in the first place. I agree with some of the others that he hasn't been fleshed out all the way...but he wasn't in the books, either. The show is obviously setting him up for a bigger story than he had in the books, though. And I don't see how that's a bad thing at this point.

Sleeping with two guys does not make him a slut. But sleeping with Olivar not long after Renly's death and without any scene delving into him getting over Renly's death makes him seem incredibly fickle and promiscuous. And while I've got nothing against promiscuity, it certainly isn't a positive trait when it involves sleeping around just a couple of months after the love of his life died.

Being a knight is not a character trait, and in this setting it isn't even notable. His love for Renly (and arguably his jealousy of Brienne) are both tied into his homosexuality (which isn't to say they shouldn't be there, just that they don't provide a dimension to him outside of his sexuality.). I've never noticed that he isn't one to talk. So I guess according to you we can add dumb to Loras' list of traits. Great.

[ambi76]

So I was ranting at talking to my brother about the show and he's like,they could have had Loras using sex the way other people use alcohol to get over their grief. Show him engaging in it as a means to deaden his pain over losing Renly-you get to keep the sex scenes and show his continuing mourning.

Which just goes to show what a small change they'd need to make to give show!Loras some depth.

Cogman even gave that as an explanation in a Q&A, but yeah, would be nice to actually have that explanation somehow shown on screen then.