Rioting in Baltimore...

[Seli]

Seli,

Do you think a Mom and Pop grocery and a local hair salon are going to have insurance that will not attempt to refuse to pay out via claims that "intentional actions" are outside the scope of policy coverage?

They may get the claims paid... In a few years.

....

An insurance company trying to weasel their way out of a contract? Never!

In which case one could consider government (presumable state, local is a bit too mixed up in the mess) stepping in for the time being and pressuring the insurance companies to pay up.

[Inigima]

Scot, you should read -- or reread -- Ta-Nehisi Coates' piece on the situation. Linked by Shryke earlier, re linked here: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/nonviolence-as-compliance/391640/

[Dr. Pepper]

I have a lot of sympathy for the rioters as an intense expression of anger after nothing else working is a fairly natural response. Of course, I'm sympathetic to small business owners whose businesses have been harmed, but I am comforted by the fact that we have a just system in place for them to recover from their loss.

Out of curiosity, what large-scale peaceful protests have been going on?

Arguably, the reason peaceful protests have not achieved the desired effect because

1) they've turned violent, as with Ferguson and Baltimore on Saturday

2 ) they've not been large/widespread enough. I don't mean to criticise the efforts of civil rights protesters, I do mean to point out how easily the government or police will turn a blind eye.

In the case of riots, sometimes the ends justify the means. That's a big if considering how many innocent people are suffering because of them. On the other hand, people are being persecuted in the meantime... I just wonder if peaceful protest is being exhausted as an option.

Note: I'm not trying to solve anything or describe what the situation really is. This is just one possibility that sprung to the mind of a relatively uninformed Englishman.

The #BlackLivesMatter Movement has staged protests around the world since 2013. There was a massive, multi-city protest at the end of last year. It received some media attention but not as much as it deserved because it was peaceful and no one seems to care because #PrivatePropertyMattersMoreThanBlackLives. Or worse, #CanceledSportingEventsMatterMoreThanBlackLives.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Inigima,

When nonviolence is preached as an attempt to evade the repercussions of political brutality, it betrays itself. When nonviolence begins halfway through the war with the aggressor calling time out, it exposes itself as a ruse. When nonviolence is preached by the representatives of the state, while the state doles out heaps of violence to its citizens, it reveals itself to be a con. And none of this can mean that rioting or violence is "correct" or "wise," any more than a forest fire can be "correct" or "wise." Wisdom isn't the point tonight. Disrespect is. In this case, disrespect for the hollow law and failed order that so regularly disrespects the community.

How long have I, among many others, been speaking out about police abuses of power? I take umbridge to the implication that no one has been saying anything about police abuse of power until rioting takes place. Many of us have been speaking out against police violence for years.

[Inigima]

I agree! How's that going?

Edit: it's also not the point I was making in this case. This is -- stay with me -- not about you.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Inigima,

Were any police wearing body cams 5 years ago? Are things perfect, absolutely not. Are they ever going to be perfect, not a chance. All we can do is try to make things better than they are. That will not happen overnight, as you well know.

I'm not saying this is "about me" but Ta-Nehisi Coates implies that the only time white America pays attention to the deaths of blacks at the hands of police is when there is a riot. That is simply not the case.

[awesome possum]

That's because there's a difference between "white Americans" and "white America."

White Americans like you and I talk about this on internet forums or at work or on facebook and talk about how something needs to be done.

White America, on the other hand, produces a NYT article where the first six citations are forms of "police said."

[Littlefingers In The Air]

So, when does white America pay attention to the death of blacks?

[awesome possum]

So, when does white America pay attention to the death of blacks?

When the reaction to those black deaths begins to inconvenience them.

You want white outrage? Have The Voice live results be interrupted by a special news report. Have *insert sports team here* lose a game. Change the mythology of a comic book character while making a movie. You'll get your white outrage then.

[Shryke]

Out of curiosity, what large-scale peaceful protests have been going on?

http://blackwestchester.com/2015/04/27/10000-peacefully-protest-bmore/

Been going on for weeks. No one cared. Nothing changed.

[Shryke]

Inigima,

Were any police wearing body cams 5 years ago? Are things perfect, absolutely not. Are they ever going to be perfect, not a chance. All we can do is try to make things better than they are. That will not happen overnight, as you well know.

I'm not saying this is "about me" but Ta-Nehisi Coates implies that the only time white America pays attention to the deaths of blacks at the hands of police is when there is a riot. That is simply not the case.

Sure it is. America as a whole doesn't give a shit about black people. No one reported on this before the riots. They were talking about the fucking DC Prom. How many black men have publicly been killed by the police in just the past 12 months? How much has changed? How much is even headed towards change?

The answer to those last two is "Very little".

The truth Scot is what Ta-Nehisi points out:

Officials calling for calm can offer no rational justification for Gray's death, and so they appeal for order.

And it's exactly the kind of thing you are dancing around as well. You are asking for a return to calm, to the status quo. While not acknowledging what that means. Because the status quo is that the BPD arrests black men for no reason and murders them without consequence. And it's been that way for a LONG LONG time.

You are hangwringing about he rioting and by doing so ignoring the larger context in which they take place. You began this thread saying that riots won't change anything and that this is how the police get more power. Which completely jumps over the fact that not-rioting didn't change shit either and that the police already have all the power they need in this situation. That's why Freddie Gray is dead.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Shryke,

I'm saying people shouldn't burn other people's cars, burn down buildings, or loot businesses that operate in their community. I'm not saying they should stop protesting.

I'm saying destroying the property of people within their community and claiming they are justified in doing so because they're angry makes no sense. The people who's property they destroyed didn't kill Gray and aren't defending the police. Lashing out at whatever is in reach may be understandable but that doesn't make it right.

And I'm absolutely not ignoring the context. I've been speaking out against Police abusing their power for years.

[Tellus Explorer]

From CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/27/us/baltimore-unrest/index.html

This is not the way to get change. This is how police end up with more power.

I agree!

Violence is not the way to handle any situation! No matter how satisfying it may seem.... This doesn't justify anything imo

[Dr. Pepper]

Shryke,

I'm saying people shouldn't burn other people's cars, burn down buildings, or loot businesses that operate in their community. I'm not saying they should stop protesting.

I'm saying destroying the property of people within their community and claiming they are justified in doing so because they're angry makes no sense. The people who's property they destroyed didn't kill Gray and aren't defending the police. Lashing out at whatever is in reach may be understandable but that doesn't make it right.

People should probably stop shooting other people. More importantly, those officers who murder other people should stop being rewarded for it.

[Shryke]

Shryke,

I'm saying people shouldn't burn other people's cars, burn down buildings, or loot businesses that operate in their community. I'm not saying they should stop protesting.

I'm saying destroying the property of people within their community and claiming they are justified in doing so because they're angry makes no sense. The people who's property they destroyed didn't kill Gray and aren't defending the police. Lashing out at whatever is in reach may be understandable but that doesn't make it right.

And that sentiment is rather irrelevant and I'm not sure why you think it deserves to be the only thing you keep repeating.

[The Iceman of the North]

I'm saying people shouldn't burn other people's cars, burn down buildings, or loot businesses that operate in their community. I'm not saying they should stop protesting.

You'd make an excellent point if people actually noticed non-violent protests. How much attention have your local news in SC paid to the peaceful protests that took place before the funeral?

[Littlefingers In The Air]

Shryke,

I'm saying people shouldn't burn other people's cars, burn down buildings, or loot businesses that operate in their community. I'm not saying they should stop protesting.

I'm saying destroying the property of people within their community and claiming they are justified in doing so because they're angry makes no sense. The people who's property they destroyed didn't kill Gray and aren't defending the police. Lashing out at whatever is in reach may be understandable but that doesn't make it right.

And I'm absolutely not ignoring the context. I've been speaking out against Police abusing their power for years.

We'll make them a deal, then. They can stop destroying black lives, and the "rioters" will stop destroying their replaceable property. I mean, the value of those possessions and those black lives are about equal anyways, according to this country.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Shryke,

Why is the destruction of people's property, people who have nothing to do with Mr. Gray's death, "irrelevant"? Further I stand by my statement that rioting gives ammunition to people who see nothing wrong with the action of police in this case, Ferguson, and other cases where Blacks have been the victim of Police abuse. As such saying rioting is counter-productive is highly relevant.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

LFitA,

If you are angry, justifiably angry, for what ever reason does that give you liscence to lash out at someone or someone's property that has nothing to do with why you are angry?

[Littlefingers In The Air]

LFitA,

If you are angry, justifiably angry, for what ever reason does that give you liscence to lash out at someone or someone's property that has nothing to do with why you are angry?

If it sends the message that I, nor the people, will not deal that shit, justification isn't needed. Mothers are tired of losing their sons and daughters to this shit. You'd be hard pressed to find a response to that sort of anger that isn't justified. If you don't understand, and I don't think you do, then that's fine.