Rioting in Baltimore...

[Roose Seal]

"Violence doesn't solve anything" says the country with the largest military in the world.

"Rioting doesn't solve anything" say the white ppl who burn shit when their sports team loses.

Where are you "violence doesn't solve anything" people when people (often innocent) get killed by the police?

[Summah]

I really can't find anything more coherent to say right now than quoting an NWA song.

[Pebble thats Stubby]

Stay safe everyone.

Its true riots don't solve anything, they just make more problems. But that don't mean I can't understand and sympathies with the reasons behind them. Its often people not connected with the grievances of the rioters that get hurt.

When the situation is so bad that you can't trust the police to fairly investigate the few rouge officers, it creates a situation that spirals out of control, and the more frequent and worse the abuses get. I don't have a solution. I wish I did

[Hereward]

Riots absolutely do solve things. Riots in the 19th century led to the abolition of the Corn Laws, the expansion of the franchise and the legalisation of trade unions. The Brixton and Toxteth riots in the 80s led to urban regeneration projects and the beginning of a still unfinished process that addressed institutional police racism.

Are all riots justified? Of course not. But it's ridiculous to say that they are always unjustified and even more ridiculous to say they never achieve anything.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

TP, Shryke, Karradin,

As I said on facebook:

I stand by my statement that rioting will be used by reactionaries to further empower police. See the curfew announced by the Mayor of Baltimore that will allow police to arrest people for merely being outside at certain hours.

I can only imagine the anger and frustration but if it ends up empowering the people abusing their power what good does it accomplish?

[Hereward]

All riots lead to an initial security crackdown. The rule of law must be demonstrated, after all. The key to whether they achieve anything is whether the second step is further repression or the addressing of the fundamental issues. Further repression just makes the pressure build.

[Solmyr]

My opinion remains unchanged from when we had the Ferguson protests thread.

To the people, who are advocating the thesis that only rioting can change things - well, if that is so, do you believe the current number of people rioting is sufficient to bring about that change? And if not, why aren't you outside, rioting in support and to bring the riot closer to critical mass? If the change that is sought is desirable by you, why put the burden of rioting onto others? Piggybackrioting?

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Hereward,

My concern is that Police who, since Ferguson, have been under increased scrutiny and pressure to rein in abuses of their authority, will use incidents like these riots to push back against that pressure and claim their heavy handed tactics are justified.

Freddie Gray died, at a minimum, due to the gross negligence of the officers who transported him. Much more likely, in my opinion, he was deliberately killed (or perhaps deliberately injured in such a way that lead to his death).

These riots, in my opinion, give ammunition to people who want to defend the kind of power that allowed police to kill Freddie Gray. They point to the police who were hurt in the course of the riots and claim that police need a free hand. I am not among those who want Police in the US to have that free hand. I want their power curtailed and their actions scrutinized.

Prior to these riots that scrutiny was increasing; body cameras for more offficers; more prosecutions of officers for abuse of power. Change the public mood in the US too far; make people too frightened and, as after 9/11, we (the general public) will "give away our liberty for a little temporary security". We've done it before.

I understand what you and others are saying about riots. I'm simply saying the riots can also be used to justify doing nothing or making the existing problem worse.

[Hereward]

What you say is true. They can. Not all riots lead to a desired result. I haven't claimed otherwise.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Hereward,

Fair enough. I don't think we disagree on the historic danger of riots.

[drawkcabi]

I continue to agree with Scot.

If I can not say I understand their feelings because it may sound patronizing let me at least say I sympathize but this is wrong. What happened to Freddie Gray was wrong too, what's happening all over the country with police is wrong.

I continue to support the idea of police reform nationwide. Peaceful protests and actions. Give people some inconvenience by blocking up a mall, don't destroy the neighborhood.

I know peaceful protests and demonstrations turn violent all too easily, on both sides, but that's still different than deliberately going out and harming and harassing the people in the community.

[Larry of the Lawn]

A chronology of yesterdays events from the Sun.

Seems entirely possible that it was the aggressive police force that showed up that triggered the violence yesterday as anything else. Kind of sick of 90% of the comments showing up on FB.

Hoping this spurs some actual police reform.

[Fez]

Riots can lead to changes, but they need to have the right targets. Riots that are just in other working/middle class neighborhoods or that only affect other working/middle class people just serve to turn those working/middle class people against the rioters instead of joining them.

Of course, even if they have the right targets, riots are still incredibly dangerous and can backfire enormously. And from what I can tell, this one was completely unnecessary. Police reform was happening in Baltimore, Freddie Gray's death was being investigated, and the larger structural inequality and poverty issues that are often at the root of anti-police protests/riots (police merely serving as the 'face' of the establishment) were not getting worse. In fact things were getting better; very, very slowly, probably too slowly really. But since they were on the right track, that means pushing reforms within the established system is probably the right way to get things moving faster.

[Lany Freelove Cassandra]

Truly heartbreaking, but damn, maybe someone will listen now.

So they are going to do a complete investigation into Freddie Grays' death...as if this was an isolated incident. Between 2010-2014 over hundred people have been killed while in police custody in Maryland. That is insane!

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

I'm sad for the people of Baltimore on so many different levels.

[MerenthaClone]

From CNN:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/27/us/baltimore-unrest/index.html

This is not the way to get change. This is how police end up with more power.

On the other hand, the vast majority of the country didn't give a single flying fuck before this. What way would you have give change? The one that's worked incrementally at best over the last 40 years? I don't blame people for being mad that that isn't fast enough.

Also, have a pertinent quote from MLK (emphasis mine):

"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."

Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."

[karaddin]

Scot - Body cameras are going to do jack shit when the show unjustified killings and the officers still aren't indicted, or they conveniently simultaneously malfunction on 6 different officers and all is considered A-OK! Since this started building in Ferguson with increased scrutiny on them, the police have continued to behave exactly the same, as though they believe themselves above the law they are supposed to enforce and most people haven't given a flying fuck.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Karradin,

Are you aware of any bureacracy, and the police are one, that changes quickly? I'm not claiming body cameras are a panecea. I'm saying they're a hell of a lot better than not having them and having courts and the public automatically defering to the word of the officers.

Personally, I think any officer who's body camera "malfunctions" during a questionable incident should be fired, outright.

[Arkhangel]

It's a really tricky question, because what it boils down to is when is it acceptable for someone who has been victimised to try and effect change by lashing out at innocent bystanders. I understand that peaceful protests have been tried and tried again and failed to get traction; on the other hand, the owners of those shops and cars have done nothing to deserve having their property and livelihoods destroyed. I'm honestly not sure where I stand.

[karaddin]

And I agree completely, but that isn't happening. The blue wall stays up no matter what evidence. The police officers we've seen disciplined recently are the ones that speak out against their fellow officers on behalf of the public. I don't consider a functionally corrupt prosecutorial system that refuses to charge officers (often via rigged grand jury processes like the farce in Ferguson) to be a bureaucratic issue, but one of corruption. That needs to be attacked, as does the blue wall. You consider unions the problem and we disagree there although I think they could afford to modify there behaviour somewhat. They are there to ensure due process is followed in termination and shouldn't block termination where it is and the evidence is there, but you'd have to show me there was a prevailing will to get rid of these bad officers being held back by the unions before I'd think they are the main problem.

ETA: Id like to state for the record that I think shutting down the malls etc is a substantially better tactic than rioting, but the response they were getting to the police was very very close to if they were rioting. Powerful people get angry when you fuck with their money. As someone else recently posted there are signs that this was sparked by the police, not the original intent.