Rioting in Baltimore...

[Jaxom 1974]

Theda,

What would you propose be done? Rioting will not change existing system it will only bring the full power of the State down on the rioters. What can be propsed that will prompt immediate and substantial change?

And if those changes can be found and made, who is going to lead the way? Because it seems like no matter what happens, they're isn't a specific voice that can rise above the rest at the moment that can unite all of the talkers into a cohesive voice.

If that makes sense.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Inigima,

I'm not saying there is a simple two line solution. I'm saying the methodology employed by the rioters cannot achive their desired result. Additional speculation as to what those rioters could do that is outside the realm of standard political discourse, similar to their current actions, and perhaps more effective is unwise.

[eyenon15]

And if those changes can be found and made, who is going to lead the way? Because it seems like no matter what happens, they're isn't a specific voice that can rise above the rest at the moment that can unite all of the talkers into a cohesive voice.

If that makes sense.

The voice that can do that always gets shot, or murdered somehow.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

LFitA,

Please don't put words in my mouth. No, not 400 years worth of patience. I didn't say that and I don't mean that. No more than you saying you have sympathy for the looters means you'd be cool with them burning your car or looting your home.

I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm telling you that the people have waited much too long. I know you mean well, but I can't take the proposal for patience seriously, especially not from people I like. The only answer to what will bring about change is discourse and swift and all inclusive changes to the legislature. And as we already agree, end this phony war on drugs, or shall we call it the war on the poor? We can go any route you prefer with that.

[Theda Baratheon]

I can't solve the problem of institutionalized racism in the US, Scot. And as much as I care, as a Brit, I don't even fully understand all the history and culture of the US myself because as much as I read online and in books, I'm not living there. But like Ini said, I can understand that there are people who don't believe there any any more options.

Do I like the thought of riots? No. I don't. But I just can't see it as black and white as: riot = bad patience = good and I can't ignore the bigger picture.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Theda,

Look at all my posts in this thread, do you really think I see no nuance here?

[Theda Baratheon]

I didn't say that Scot, but when you open a thread that is just focused on the riots you see why other people have to bring out the other parts of the story.

i'm just gonna leave this here.

"10 Images of the Baltimore Riots that you won't see on TV"

On Monday, the media was quick to paint a single picture of Baltimore: a chaos scene of violence and mayhem filled with images of looting, rioting, the burning of a CVS and the torching of a police car.

But on the ground, a very different story unfolded. You'd never know it from the media's Gotham-esque portrayal of a city riddled with criminals and "thugs," but on Monday night Baltimore was also a story of good Samaritans trying to disperse emotional crowds. It was a story of everyday citizens determined to dissipate tensions between protesters and police, of ordinary folks cleaning up their city while the media turned its cameras away. And it was a story of determined advocates for racial equality holding a meaningful dialogue with police on the streets.

[TerraPrime]

I'm saying the methodology employed by the rioters cannot achive their desired result.

Let's be clear, too, that the people who looted and damaged property most likely did not do so out of an agenda for social justice. They were, most likely, just too angry to be productive otherwise, or they were opportunistic criminals. This part of the protest was not a planned action to effect a change. This was a predictable and almost near inevitable part of the confrontation. The Baltimore PD tried to avoid and mitigate, but was ultimately unsuccessful.

[Seli]

...

You're wrong. The protests didn't turn violent. People not associated with the protests used the protests as a cover to being violence. As I said above, the major violence yesterday began around, what, 3 or 4? Coincidentally right around the end of the school day. Weird how peaceful protests suddenly turn violent at the end of the school day.

If I understand some reports I've seen pass by today correctly that was helped by busses being cancelled and public transport being closed while the schools were ending. And the police then telling everyone to go home.

AP,

Am I among "the usual suspects"?

This is not just a CVS. What about the small businesses that were looted and burned? Tough shit?

Insurance?

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

I feel like a good place to start would be having and a special prosecutor who only investigates and prosecutes cases involving the police.

[Commodore]

re Theda: behaving like civilized people isn't newsworthy

[Theda Baratheon]

Let's be clear, too, that the people who looted and damaged property most likely did not do so out of an agenda for social justice. They were, most likely, just too angry to be productive otherwise, or they were opportunistic criminals. This part of the protest was not a planned action to effect a change. This was a predictable and almost near inevitable part of the confrontation. The Baltimore PD tried to avoid and mitigate, but was ultimately unsuccessful.

Yep and as the link I posted suggests, there are plenty of people helping to clean up, talking to police, dissuading violence and attempting to stop looters. It's not all one big group of people who decided looting would be the way to go.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Seli,

Do you think a Mom and Pop grocery and a local hair salon are going to have insurance that will not attempt to refuse to pay out via claims that "intentional actions" are outside the scope of policy coverage?

They may get the claims paid... In a few years.

CVS will get paid out but I'll be shocked if they reopen the store.

[Commodore]

In the case of riots, sometimes the ends justify the means.

What ends?

[The Mance]

There's nothing wrong with justifiable anger. Has anyone said so? The problem is being angry then buring your neighbor's car of breaking into the local mom and pop grocery because you are angry. The actions are not justifiable because of the justifiable anger.

I agree with this, but I have a very different $64,000 answer. I get the anger, and the frustration, and even the urge to act out violently. I support rioting as a means of protest. Not the means, necesarily, but certainly a valid tool at a certain point. And I don't claim to know what that certain point is, though for the cause of stemming police brutality I'm comfortable saying that that point has been passed.

I still don't get random local looting and vandalism as a form of protest. if you want to fuck something up to make a point, fuck up the city, cost the local government money, not your neighbors. You want to get the mayors attention? Uproot every parking meter you can find. Burn city vehicles. Break out every window in City Hall. Hell, tear City Hall down brick by brick, for all I care. I will fucking cheer you on. But stealing booze, or TVs or whatever from your own impoverished community because police violence? Nope, don't get it.

[all swedes are racist]

Seli,

Do you think a Mom and Pop grocery, and a local hair salon are going to have insurance that will not attempt to refuse to pay out via claims that "intentional actions" are outside the scope of policy coverage?

They may get the claims paid... In a few years.

So perhaps they should just be... patient?

[Theda Baratheon]

I still don't get random local looting and vandalism as a form of protest. if you want to fuck something up to make a point, fuck up the city, cost the local government money, not your neighbors. You want to get the mayors attention? Uproot every parking meter you can find. Burn city vehicles. Break out every window in City Hall. Hell, tear City Hall down brick by brick, for all I care. I will fucking cheer you on. But stealing booze, or TVs or whatever from your own impoverished community because police violence? Nope, don't get it.

See Terra's answer:

Let's be clear, too, that the people who looted and damaged property most likely did not do so out of an agenda for social justice. They were, most likely, just too angry to be productive otherwise, or they were opportunistic criminals. This part of the protest was not a planned action to effect a change. This was a predictable and almost near inevitable part of the confrontation. The Baltimore PD tried to avoid and mitigate, but was ultimately unsuccessful.

[awesome possum]

No, I'm right because the situation turned violent. You can't just say "Nah- it didn't turn violent." It did. Carlson's whole point was that if the police did not take action, then this situation would matasticize into violence. And he was 100% correct. You cannot just ignore that issue and say "The violence is wholly unconnected."

Now, here you are trying to draw a line of demarcation between the protesters and the violence, and you may be right.

I disagree with Carlson's point, which you stated to be, "the police need to crack down on these protesters before they riot." As someone else pointed out above, cracking down a peaceful demonstration would have only served to push the a segment of those peaceful protesters into the group wanting and ready to riot.

Massive protests like this almost always beget some form of violence. Carlson wasn't being a sage when he said that.

But, AP, you cannot on the one hand say THIS:

And then ON THE OTHER HAND say - "The violence is not connected to the protest"

The first thing you are saying is that the violence is justified because it connects back to police violence against the citizens (otherwise, why say it?).

The second thing you say is that "The violence is not connected to the protests."

Well... which is it? Is the violence the natural by-product of police problems or is it wholly unconnected? You- like me in many instances of liberal generalities - want it both ways.

Of course the violence is connected to the protests, they - like in Ferguson and many other instances in our history - were used as an excuse to start looting and burning shit. But that doesn't mean the protest caused the violence.

I also don't think I said the violence is justified. I said that the protests are justified and anger is justified and provided a link to show why they're protesting and angry.

Until proven otherwise, I will believe that the riots were caused by shitheels wanting to take advantage of the situation more than anything else.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

I agree with this, but I have a very different $64,000 answer. I get the anger, and the frustration, and even the urge to act out violently. I support rioting as a means of protest. Not the means, necesarily, but certainly a valid tool at a certain point. And I don't claim to know what that certain point is, though for the cause of stemming police brutality I'm comfortable saying that that point has been passed.

I still don't get random local looting and vandalism as a form of protest. if you want to fuck something up to make a point, fuck up the city, cost the local government money, not your neighbors. You want to get the mayors attention? Uproot every parking meter you can find. Burn city vehicles. Break out every window in City Hall. Hell, tear City Hall down brick by brick, for all I care. I will fucking cheer you on. But stealing booze, or TVs or whatever from your own impoverished community because police violence? Nope, don't get it.

This is my sentiment. I sympathize very much with local business owners of Mom and Pops joints. They're hurting the msot, in my opinion. I wouldn't feel bad at all if it was just chain industries, like McDonalds and the aforementioned CVS and other businesses of that ilk. They can bounce back. There are going to be unfortunate consequences for people with businesses not so big, and I commend the people who have dedicated themselves to helping defend those businesses.

One day, this kind of thing will happen in a much more coordinated and organized fashion, and I will support that 100 times over.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

RRL,

So perhaps they should just be... patient?

Cute. I'm not saying patience is ideal. I'm saying they have few other options. So, yeah, the damage done by members of their own community to others in that community is similar to the postion all those frustrated with the pace of police reform feel.