[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa XV - The stories of Bael(ish)

[Ser Pounce FTW]

It's not my fault you think books are boring :)

Actually the point is her story is not more boring on the show than in the books. There are quite a bit of parallels and I expect there'll be more as the season progresses.

[SayGen]

I understand people don't read every post in every thread.... I don't either.

But seriously what's with the same old arguments against LF when they have already been explained.

WHY did he have to put her in WF? That's dangerous.. blah blah blah.

He should wait till after the battle...Blah blah blah

Hey perhaps you should rewatch the previous episode and realize that the bargain struck involved him DELIVERING (exact words) Sansa to Lord Bolton.

In all likelihood he attempted to wait and hold her back; we don't know, but he needs to hedge the bet BEFORE the battle so regardless of who wins, he also wins.

Please, at least read a few posts so it's not the same thing over and over.

I'm convinced LF is still in as much control now as he has always been. Only a rare few mistakes were made by him.

Recall him blowing off Cercie and claiming knowledge was power, and she retorted with her 'power is power' monologue?

Sansa is critical to his plans, both in the near and far future. Give him a little credit eh?

[jarl the climber]

My theory is that Littlefinger is linked with the High Sparrow somehow. So he rats out Cersei for her crimes. He promises to use the Vale armies agianst the apostate Stannis. By the time he gets there the Boltons and Stannis have beat each other up, no matter who wins. If Bolton happens to win LF has the Vale armies go after him for betraying Robb. Leaving Sansa there is classic LF if you think about it. He admits that he does things purposely that would seem to work against him.

[SayGen]

My theory is that Littlefinger is linked with the High Sparrow somehow. So he rats out Cersei for her crimes. He promises to use the Vale armies agianst the apostate Stannis. By the time he gets there the Boltons and Stannis have beat each other up, no matter who wins. If Bolton happens to win LF has the Vale armies go after him for betraying Robb. Leaving Sansa there is classic LF if you think about it. He admits that he does things purposely that would seem to work against him.

Not sure if the ever pious high sparrow is interested in working with a sinner when soon he will have enough power not to.

IE: LF has a brothel, one that is notorious for going far beyond supplying working women.

V mentioned corpses and necrophilia in previous seasons.

Doubt the 7 are going to be looking at LF as anything more than someone who should share a cell.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

Actually the point is her story is not more boring on the show than in the books. There are quite a bit of parallels and I expect there'll be more as the season progresses.

Well, it's only a opinion, really. Sansa's my favorite POV, and considering in the last favorite character poll she was voted number 5, I'm not sure you're on the majority.

[SayGen]

Well, it's only a opinion, really. Sansa's my favorite POV, and considering in the last favorite character poll she was voted number 5, I'm not sure you're on the majority.

Where are these polls?

[ForeverLost]

Is it only me or it seems that the last kiss was quite consensual? Also Sansa' s last comment that she will be a married woman when she sees LF again makes me think she might have fallen for LF :ack: Or maybe just trying to play him, but what is the point now?

[Ser Pounce FTW]

Well, it's only a opinion, really. Sansa's my favorite POV, and considering in the last favorite character poll she was voted number 5, I'm not sure you're on the majority.

First, I have no idea what poll you're talking about. Second, I'm not sure you're understanding my point. I'm saying her show story is not boring and has many elements from her current book story, which is also not boring. I'm also not clear on what majority you've mentioned either. I'm responding to your comment on the show. And yes, we all have opinions but my point is you said she's doing everything LF tells her on the show and I've shown you that she does the same thing in the book. She relies on him in the show and in the books. At least for now. It won't last but that is the situation atm.

[ElizabethB.]

Is it only me or it seems that the last kiss was quite consensual? Also Sansa' s last comment that she will be a married woman when she sees LF again makes me think she might have fallen for LF :ack: Or maybe just trying to play him, but what is the point now?

That was plain icky.

[ElizabethB.]

First, I have no idea what poll you're talking about. Second, I'm not sure you're understanding my point. I'm saying her show story is not boring and has many elements from her current book story, which is also not boring. I'm also not clear on what majority you've mentioned either. I'm responding to your comment on the show. And yes, we all have opinions but my point is you said she's doing everything LF tells her on the show and I've shown you that she does the same thing in the book. She relies on him in the show and in the books. At least for now. It won't last but that is the situation atm.

Sansa is a boring girl in an interesting story. See the difference? :)

[Grail King]

Is it only me or it seems that the last kiss was quite consensual? Also Sansa' s last comment that she will be a married woman when she sees LF again makes me think she might have fallen for LF :ack: Or maybe just trying to play him, but what is the point now?

Nah, I don't think so, she just stood there no passion or anything and her expressions says she isn't trusting or believing his words, her body language as he leaves the crypts sat the same.

[Alayne's Shadow.]

I wasn't actually refering to your personal opinion about what's the better story, but rather than it's a matter of opinion, and that one can find both stories interesting, one more interesting than the other in a natural way, and as such, especially with a character driven to passion, both positive and negative, you're never really on the majority. As to the poll I'm refering to, there was just one here in the forums.

[buckfosto]

I agree that Littlefinger's endgame must involve a dead Stannis. There is no way Littlefinger could flourish with Stannis as king. My guess is that Littlefinger's original plan involved dropping Sansa off at Winterfell and then going back to the Vale to wait out the Battle of Winterfell. But now LF is detouring to visit Kings Landing.

I do sort of accept LF's argument that Sansa needs to be in Winterfell to strike her claim while the north is still up for grabs. If somebody rustles up a different Stark figurehead or if people start getting used to a non-Stark running the north, Sansa becomes irrelevant. And with winter coming, Sansa only had a small window of time to go north. If she winters in the south, she runs a real risk of people forgetting about her or deciding that she's too southern. So if Ramsay wasn't psychotic, it might be worth the risk of putting Sansa in a war zone in order to make sure she's the primary Stark on the ground. Especially since Stannis has access to a Stark bastard and Arya is unaccounted for (and Littlefinger probably did recognize her in Harrenhal, so he might think the Lannisters still have her).

Exactly. She's there because there are many Northern Lords that are ready to revolt against the Boltons. Just knowing she's alive somewhere safe is a lot different than her being there, in Winterfell. It's like a King being in the battle with his armies. It raises them up to have her there. Unfortunately, Ramsay is psychotic so that's going to backfire (or potentially will).

Whatever bad thing happens I think it will be to Myranda or Sansa. It's not going to be Reek getting tortured again (altho Ramsays "bored" line is a threat of it). He was tortured all Season 3 and Ramsay displayed last season how under his thumb Reek is. Almost all of the press I've heard regarding this story line points to Ramsay having a new plaything.

[Donaldys I Trumpagar]

And THAT would be amazing on TV, for sure. Sansa eating lemoncakes in the Vale for 3 seasons, that's what we all want! :bowdown:

+1.

Characters twiddling their thumbs with no plot movement doesn't work for the books -- it certainly won't work for a tv show.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

As always, keep it civil. And welcome to Discussing Sansa threads...

Oh, honey... I can't keep it civil anymore.

LF's plots only seem brilliant after the fact. And only because he has won so far.

Putting Sansa at risk makes perfect sense. LF wants the north to rise up to save her.

Risking is always a dangerousgame, butLF has been set up to be a better player. He didn't risk himself helping Ned Stark because he knew Cersei would win. That's what he does. He plays safe because he has everybody already cornered and arranged to his benefit.

So, he gives Sansa to the Boltons:

Ramsay kills her. He loses her.

Ramsay doesn't kill her. She realises she can control the North. She doesn't need LF anymore.

Ramsay doesn't kill her. But Roose realises she's a danger, and kills her. He sends Cersei her head. LF loses his leverage.

Ramsay doesn't kill her. But Roose realises she's a danger, and just tells Cersei. LF loses his leverage and his head.

Stannis' men capture her. He keeps her as a hostage to have the North to his favour. LF loses his leverage.

Stannis' men capture her. Stannis tells her LF is probably one of the rats that betrayed Ned.

Stannis' men kill her. He loses her.

Considering last season, the last scene of them was Sansa playing him and manipulating him with her Darthsansaness, LF's plans depend a lot from Sansa trusting him and never realise LF was in KL when Ned died and did nothing and simply forgetting he killed her aunt after she confessed how much of mess he created, the same one that got his father into a bigger problem in first place.

[wolverine]

Agree with previous post. I thought Sansa had awakened to the world? She has not realized how LF has manipulated her the entire time?

Right, now is a great time for me to marry the psychotic bastard son of my brothers betrayer and murderer. Oh, LF thinks I should do it? Goody, cant wait.

[Grail King]

Oh, honey... I can't keep it civil anymore.

Risking is always a dangerousgame, butLF has been set up to be a better player. He didn't risk himself helping Ned Stark because he knew Cersei would win. That's what he does. He plays safe because he has everybody already cornered and arranged to his benefit.

So, he gives Sansa to the Boltons:

Ramsay kills her. He loses her.

Ramsay doesn't kill her. She realises she can control the North. She doesn't need LF anymore.

Ramsay doesn't kill her. But Roose realises she's a danger, and kills her. He sends Cersei her head. LF loses his leverage.

Ramsay doesn't kill her. But Roose realises she's a danger, and just tells Cersei. LF loses his leverage and his head.

Stannis' men capture her. He keeps her as a hostage to have the North to his favour. LF loses his leverage.

Stannis' men capture her. Stannis tells her LF is probably one of the rats that betrayed Ned.

Stannis' men kill her. He loses her.

Considering last season, the last scene of them was Sansa playing him and manipulating him with her Darthsansaness, LF's plans depend a lot from Sansa trusting him and never realise LF was in KL when Ned died and did nothing and simply forgetting he killed her aunt after she confessed how much of mess he created, the same one that got his father into a bigger problem in first place.

She knows he was in KL, what she doesn't know is he betrayed her family and held a dagger to Neds throat.

Also from the books she says in her head that LF never lifted a finger for her.

[Lord Damian]

I read Sophie's interview and try and look at it from Sansa's point of view. LF she knows and knows he wants her. She threw out that last bit about being a married woman next time we see each other just to see what his reaction would be. She is testing him. However, the situation she is in right now is essentually, Where the else is she going to go? She saved Littlefinger last season because she needed him as he did not know anyone save Royce in the Vale and she did not know if they would send her to King's Landing or not.

Sansa is still keeping an open eye and ear for a lifeline and right now, she does not yet know what Ramsay is. I am "hedging my bet" that she will change her mind on "going ahead and marrying Ramsay willingly because LF says so". She is about to stop playing Littlefinger's game and play Sansa's game. Now, as more info regarding her brothers status as alive become available, she will undoubtably play to get her family back. This while trying to avoid becoming too drawn in or worse, antagonizing the monsters she is supposed to marry into.

[ADanceWithCats]

Considering last season, the last scene of them was Sansa playing him and manipulating him with her Darthsansaness, LF's plans depend a lot from Sansa trusting him and never realise LF was in KL when Ned died and did nothing and simply forgetting he killed her aunt

Yes. It's called hubris. LF has to overplay his hand at some point, otherwise Sansa's story wouldn't be Sansa's story, but Littlefinger's story. And Sansa has been well established as his weak point, so he'll overplay it by trusting her too much. Otherwise it's just bad writing.

[nationalanthem91]

This is what scares me the most, Roose will need the Wedding to take place ASAP so Ramsay can consummate it and get a bolton heir in that Stark belly of hers. The only thing that may delay this is the desire for Northern bannermen to come and whitness the event to give it more credibility. If that is the case, good for Sansa as she needs time to get out of this. IF it is not the case, then Alfie Allen's statement about mid-season could be within 2 weeks.

Ah, good point. Also, wouldn't there need to be some kind of High Septon to annule the marriage between Sansa and Tyrion? Maybe that's not necessary...since their marriage was never consumated...I don't know.

I've read Alfie's quotes too and they give me anxiety, haha. He makes it sound like it's going to be one of the worst things to ever happen on the show. Would they really make this big of a deal if the torturing is towards Myranda? Don't get me wrong...any kind of flaying scene, even with her, would be awful; but at the end of the day, she's just as evil as Ramsay is and so I don't think everyone would completely and totally freak out like they would if something like that happened to Sansa. Sansa is a loved character, and the majority of the fanbase wants to see her safe. If any kind of rape scene/sexual assault scene took place, it'd be sheer chaos.

In my opinion, I think having her go through something that dark would eventually make her dark herself. Maybe this horrible scene Alfie keeps referencing refers to Sansa, and in effect, causing Sansa to turn into a darker, more cruel person? Is that a stretch? Hm.