Lord Godric Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 GRRM Uses sketchy storytelling tropes: news at eleven.I'm not sure what point you guys are making?People did complain about the Dany/Drogo thing on the book forums. Just as people complained about Mel's rape of Gendry and Jaime raping Cersei in the show forums.Maybe people were more forgiving in season one when when the show had some semblence of storytelling. Maybe after the show keeps adding rape when none existed has taken away that goodwill.I'm not sure who the "you guys" you're talking about are, but if I am one of them the point I was trying to make was that the Dany/Drogo rape was not "adding rape when none existed." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 I'm not sure who the "you guys" you're talking about are, but if I am one of them the point I was trying to make was that the Dany/Drogo rape was not "adding rape when none existed."So the board ate my quote. I was referring to the people asking where the outrage was in season 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facebookless Man Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 (edited) Because that is such a limited definition of rape it's almost scary. She also wanted it physically.Is that sketchy? Sure. Is it still statutory rape and an arranged marriage? Yes. Does the intent behind the scene remotely resemble D&D's motives for wanting it "as brutal as possible"? I dunno, you tell me. Edited May 20, 2015 by Facebookless Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facebookless Man Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 She. Was. Thirteen.She says "no" and then what? Go back to Viserys? Hope the dothraki warlord backs off?Jesus. She said yes and she meant it. She does not hope the Dothraki warlord backs off. And yes, that's hardly believable and a sketchy sexual fantasy to boot. What it is NOT is a rape fantasy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takyon Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 He literally asked her for permission.Like I said, she was sort of pushed into a corner; he was an adult speaking down to a young girl and it's hard to comfortably say 'no' when you're conditioned to be submissive.And like Winter's Knight implied, it's unlikely that a barbarian warlord would take 'no' for an answer. The way I saw it, Drogo was waiting until he got his way because he picked up on her passivity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tadco26 Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 (edited) I always thought Dany's love story with Drogo was one of the most unbelievable parts of the books for a major POV character. Whether you call it rape or not, she was contemplating suicide at one point because of the rough to brutal sex that left her muffling her cries in her pillow. Then she learned how to please Drogo in another way and grew to love him. I like the books in spite of that story line, not because of it. There were plenty of complaints about the rape in season 1 too. I think people liked the show in spite of the rape, not because of it in that situation too. Rape is terrible but it doesn't offend me to see it on the show if it is critical to a plot line. I understand why it would for other people. It's just an illogical plot line for Sansa to even be there, and creating a rape scene for her is upsetting viewers who are offended with minimal gain. Even if you aren't offended, was it entertaining to you? If you loved the episode, would you be rating it down if Sansa had been rescued before the bedding? Or if Ramsay had been called to deal with an attack by Stannis first? Rape is a logical course of action for Ramsay in that situation, but it's not the only option they had. Edited May 20, 2015 by Tadco26 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facebookless Man Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Like I said, she was sort of pushed into a corner; he was an adult speaking down to a young girl and it's hard to comfortably say 'no' when you're conditioned to be submissive.And like Winter's Knight implied, it's unlikely that a barbarian warlord would take 'no' for an answer. The way I saw it, Drogo was waiting until he got his way because he picked up on her passivity. I quoted the passage with her feelings and her thoughts in it. And her physical reactions too. Not much else I can do at this point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 (edited) It's not really relevant right now. Go open a discussion in the book forums if you want a discussion on Dany/Drogo. Someone might even explain how growing up with abuse, Dany learnt to equate it with love and used it as a coping mechanism to survive. Edited May 20, 2015 by Winter's Knight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facebookless Man Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 (edited) It's not really relevant right now. Go open a discussion in the book forums if you want a discussion on Dany/Drogo. I didn't bring it up, and I'm not that interested. I'm just defending the author of the books from being equated with those of the show. Someone might even explain how growing up with abuse, Dany learnt to equate it with love and used it as a coping mechanism to survive. You seriously, honestly think that was GRRM's intent there? Edited May 20, 2015 by Facebookless Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Quork Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 I didn't bring it up, and I'm not that interested. I'm just defending the author of the books from being equated with those of the show. Agreed. That was the conversation I was responding to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 A friendly reminder that 1. We don't want this thread locked and 2. That one scene was written in 1996, a much different time with very much different sensibilities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facebookless Man Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 (edited) Your second point is a bit iffy given the differences between the contemporary show written by dashing young men's treatment of the theme vs. the original, fat dirty old dork's work - even in my non-SJW interpretation of it :D but yeah, enough of this Edited May 20, 2015 by Facebookless Man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Right then. Does anyone know why the Sand Snakes had to go in secret-ninja-style? They're Trystane's cousins-getting into the Water Gardens should have been easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of the North Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 (edited) Right then.Does anyone know why the Sand Snakes had to go in secret-ninja-style? They're Trystane's cousins-getting into the Water Gardens should have been easy.HA! Great question! Also, they didn't even have to go in armed to the teeth with spears, etc. (not to mention in broad daylight - didn't Trys and Myrc take evening strolls?) They could have just nonchalantly strolled in (with some concealed weapons, of course) and tried to snatch Myrcella. That would have made quite a bit more sense. Edited May 20, 2015 by Prince of the North Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tadco26 Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 (edited) HA! Great question! Also, they didn't even have to go in armed to the teeth with spears, etc. (not to mention in broad daylight - didn't Trys and Myrc take evening strolls?) They could have just nonchalantly strolled in (with some concealed weapons, of course) and tried to snatch Myrcella. That would have made quite a bit more sense. What is their plan once they snatch her? Hurting or killing her seems like what they were implying they were going to do to Myrcella, but they don't need to abduct her first to do that. Yet they didn't even try to attack her when they were fighting Jaime and Bronn. Besides if two foreigners can walk in armed and assault the prince without any guards stopping them, then the sand snakes getting in seems like a piece of cake. Edited May 20, 2015 by Tadco26 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prince of the North Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 What is their plan once they snatch her? Hurting or killing her seems like what they were implying they were going to do to Myrcella, but they don't need to abduct her first to do that. Yet they didn't even try to attack her when they were fighting Jaime and Bronn. Besides if two foreigners can walk in armed and assault the prince without any guards stopping them, then the sand snakes getting in seems like a piece of cake. Good point about the SS not even trying to harm Myrcella when that was their stated goal. That's another thing that should have gone differently if the show were internally consistent at all. Your second point is what I am getting at with having the SS conceal their intent a bit and just walk into the water gardens. That way some guards could have been shown and that would have been at least a bit more logical. However, then we couldn't have Jaime and Bronn just easily walk into the place unchallenged so... :dunno: Also, that scene really, really should have taken place in the evening. I mean, it's simply logical that one would make the attempt, whether it's to kill Myrcella or "rescue" her, in the evening because the coming darkness would make getting away much easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Knight Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Right? Just.. "Welcome to the family cousin, spend the night with us for some sisterly bonding. "They could even blame her murder on Jamie and Bronn later. Also I've been meaning to mention this but I really liked Myrcella's dress. Such a pretty shade of orange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Right then.Does anyone know why the Sand Snakes had to go in secret-ninja-style? They're Trystane's cousins-getting into the Water Gardens should have been easy. because... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vee Stark Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 I would have hoped that Sansa, knowing she had to go through with her wedding night, would have simply and forcefully showed her (supposedly) new found power and agency, and shed her clothes outright as a sign that she feared nothing and was in control (to the extent she could be in the presence of a monster). But instead, she was still the timid victim. Even if the torment and abuse still occurred regardless. At least she wouldn't have gone in like a sacrificial lamb. Unfortunate that. I can't agree more!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AryaNymeriaVisenya Posted May 20, 2015 Share Posted May 20, 2015 Interesting Targ madness was brought up again, after Barristan's stories of Aerys and Dany's very questionable actions last week that had whiffs of Aerys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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