[BOOK AND SHOW SPOILERS] Scarlett has left the building!

[Alayne's Shadow.]

tormund raping jon makes zero sense. ramsey is a deviant sadomasochistic monster. it is highly probable and believable he would rape his new stark wife.

Wildlings rape. It's stated as such. Why doesn't it make sense? Because It's Jon and he's not serving as a stand-in for someone else?

[1234567]

*Ding & Dong have Jon's ship sink on the way to Hardhome. Jon is swimming to shore but is eaten by a kraken*

"Well, what did you expect to happen? They were sailing in kraken-infested waters and krakens are predators, after all. Ding & Dong would be betraying the books if they didn't have Jon eaten by a kraken!"

No one is denying that having Sansa raped in the situation in which Ding & Dong contrived to place her was realistic. That's not point and has never been the point. The issue is whether or not it was necessary to put her in this situation in the first place. Was it really necessary to dismantle Sansa, Littlefinger, Brienne, and who knows how many other storylines just to include fArya? Is fArya really that important, in the scheme of things, that it must be included at any cost?

Excellently said. To add further, they have removed the Manderly and Frey plot line which was infinitely more interesting than yet another rape, but they choose to keep the rape. They also choose to write bullshit like Talisa and Missiandi and Grey Worm rather than focus on the story. They could have used Sansa's Vale stuff or held off on the Wedding to Ramsay, but D&D wanted a rape scene for shock value so we got FArya being Sansa. So she has had her storyline removed only to be replaced by the exact same storyline in KL with Joff, only this time it is the 18 rating version.

[aFeastForDragons]

It didn't bother me since I knew it was coming from articles and interviews.

I thought it was dumb and needless though.

[Ugly Little Girl]

I'll still watch, as I still enjoy the show, and I understand that 'that scene' is vital for Reek's transition back to Theon, and further understand the decision to replace Jeyne with Sansa .

I've also got a novel solution for those who are desperately unhappy with the show:

1) never watch another episode

2) keep away from the show forums

3) stick to the book forums.

I promise you'll be happier and so will we.

(edited for autocorrect typos)

[Mike]

why do people keep saying it makes no sense for sansa to be in winterfell? have you all read the next few books?

In the show's narrative, it makes no sense. Littlefinger's plan is ridiculous and would only work if he was the beneficiary of plot armor and poor writing.

[Daphne of House Vakarian]

I stopped taking the show seriously a while ago.

I just can't keep my eyes of this the "disaster".

As someone wrote somewhere on the Internet.

"D&D is Ramsay, Sansa is the Books and Theon are the Book Readers witnessing the tragedy."

[gash is back]

In the show's narrative, it makes no sense. Littlefinger's plan is ridiculous and would only work if he was the beneficiary of plot armor and poor writing.

where else would sansa end up? king's landing again? over to braavos maybe? maybe she could be the first female lord commander!

[Alayne's Shadow.]

where else would sansa end up? king's landing again? over to braavos maybe? maybe she could be the first female lord commander!

How about in the Vale?? Have I just created a new storyline?

[SerDesmondHume]

why do people keep saying it makes no sense for sansa to be in winterfell? have you all read the next few books?

In terms of show canon. Littlefinger's plan makes no sense for anyone.

Littlefinger: He just gave up his two important wards. One of which (that he's in love with) he put in a warzone with backstabbing psychopaths to look after her. He also has no info on a man who's openly flaying schools of people in the north?

Roose: He makes an enemy out of Cersei for no reason. What happened to his Frey soldiers or the people captured in the red wedding to avoid northern rebellion. Even if Cersei isn't going to send an army up there why wouldn't she give his lands and titles to anyone else in the north who would take it by force and have support because the Bolton's are hated.

Sansa: Why would she agree to this? The knights of the Vale made it clear they'd choose her over Littlefinger so it's not like she was forced. She obviously didn't want to be violated by Ramsay and has no means of controlling either Bolton. It might make sense if she was like Cersei and used it to manipulate the Ramsay against Roose but she was obviously the victim in that scene not a manipulator. It would make as much sense as Daenerys selling herself to the Mountain.

[Anarchosaurus Rex]

Excellently said. To add further, they have removed the Manderly and Frey plot line which was infinitely more interesting than yet another rape, but they choose to keep the rape. They also choose to write bullshit like Talisa and Missiandi and Grey Worm rather than focus on the story. They could have used Sansa's Vale stuff or held off on the Wedding to Ramsay, but D&D wanted a rape scene for shock value so we got FArya being Sansa. So she has had her storyline removed only to be replaced by the exact same storyline in KL with Joff, only this time it is the 18 rating version.

The Freys and the Manderlys feuding at Winterfell would have been the sort of television that put the show on the map at the beginning. The conflict between the Northmen and the Freys - with so many great moments, like "The North remembers, Frey," and "Had he lived, he would have been a Frey" - is the important part of the Winterfell storyline. Everything else is just a contributing factor to that rising tension. Ding & Dong cut the heart out of Winterfell but kept the extraneous fArya for shock value. It says a lot about them.

I'll never understand some of the creative decisions they've made. Talisa was a sign of the coming winter.

[gash is back]

How about in the Vale?? Have I just created a new storyline?

keep her in the vale for the next two seasons. gotcha. that would be great tv.

[Mike]

where else would sansa end up? king's landing again? over to braavos maybe? maybe she could be the first female lord commander!

Those three options make about as much sense as the direction they chose.

[Anarchosaurus Rex]

keep her in the vale for the next two seasons. gotcha. that would be great tv.

Defy all internal logic to plop her in Winterfell to be raped, then pluck her out when that's done and set her back right where she started.

Even better TV!

[Mike]

keep her in the vale for the next two seasons. gotcha. that would be great tv.

In the hands of competent writers, it would be.

[Howdyphillip]

I'll still watch, as I still enjoy the show, and I understand that 'that scene' is vital for Reek's transition back to Theon, and further understand the decision to replace Jeyne with Sansa .

I've also got a novel solution for those who are desperately unhappy with the show:

1) never watch another episode

2) keep away from the show forums

3) stick to the book forums.

I promise you'll be happier and so will we.

(edited for autocorrect typos)

Hey genius.... This is a thread for those who watched the show and are deciding if they are going to watch more or not. It is very relevant for some people to discuss this. If you do not wish to do so, then go elsewhere.

Considering that there was a line that was crossed last night, I personally feel like this conversation has merit.

[gash is back]

In terms of show canon. Littlefinger's plan makes no sense for anyone.

Littlefinger: He just gave up his two important wards. One of which (that he's in love with) he put in a warzone with backstabbing psychopaths to look after her. He also has no info on a man who's openly flaying schools of people in the north?

Roose: He makes an enemy out of Cersei for no reason. What happened to his Frey soldiers or the people captured in the red wedding to avoid northern rebellion. Even if Cersei isn't going to send an army up there why wouldn't she give his lands and titles to anyone else in the north who would take it by force and have support because the Bolton's are hated.

Sansa: Why would she agree to this? The knights of the Vale made it clear they'd choose her over Littlefinger so it's not like she was forced. She obviously didn't want to be violated by Ramsay and has no means of controlling either Bolton. It might make sense if she was like Cersei and used it to manipulate the Ramsay against Roose but she was obviously the victim in that scene not a manipulator. It would make as much sense as Daenerys selling herself to the Mountain.

LF has the vale. the next logical move for a man of his ambition is the north. there is nowhere else for him to go. and who is to say it actually works out for him? or that we even know his actual plan?

[SerDesmondHume]

The Freys and the Manderlys feuding at Winterfell would have been the sort of television that put the show on the map at the beginning. The conflict between the Northmen and the Freys - with so many great moments, like "The North remembers, Frey," and "Had he lived, he would have been a Frey" - is the important part of the Winterfell storyline. Everything else is just a contributing factor to that rising tension. Ding & Dong cut the heart out of Winterfell but kept the extraneous fArya for shock value. It says a lot about them.

I'll never understand some of the creative decisions they've made. Talisa was a sign of the coming winter.

Yeah I noticed they don't have the speeches/quiet conversations as much anymore. It seems like they missed what made the show great. It wasn't shock and people dying randomly. It was how coherent and well crafted everything was.

[Daphne of House Vakarian]

The Freys and the Manderlys feuding at Winterfell would have been the sort of television that put the show on the map at the beginning. The conflict between the Northmen and the Freys - with so many great moments, like "The North remembers, Frey," and "Had he lived, he would have been a Frey" - is the important part of the Winterfell storyline. Everything else is just a contributing factor to that rising tension. Ding & Dong cut the heart out of Winterfell but kept the extraneous fArya for shock value. It says a lot about them.

I'll never understand some of the creative decisions they've made. Talisa was a sign of the coming winter.

I agree.

I mean, where are the mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters, wives, sons and daughters of all those Northern men who were slaughtered by the Freys during the Red Wedding.

Did they all vanish?

Would it be truly hard to include those families seeking for revenge?

It would have made great TV...Frey Pies?Northern lords plotting against the Boltons? Hooded Killer killing Bolton Men? etc.etc.

[RoamingRonin]

Why do people keep mentioning what happened to Jeyne Poole as if that's significant? Is Jeyne Sansa? No. Why should what happened to Jeyne also happen to Sansa? They are different people in different places with different parts to play in the story.

I guess Tyrion should get flayed (hey, it happened to Theon!), Arianne should lose her hand (hey, it happened to Jaime!), Brienne should do a walk of shame (hey, it happened to Cersei!), Dany and Drogon should be decapitated and Drogon's head placed on Dany's body (hey, it happened to Robb and Grey Wind!), and Arya should have her head crushed (hey, it happened to Oberyn!). Why not?

1. I dont get the shock, anger and revulsion. People are reacting as if GRRM never wrote such a thing.

2. The reactions lead me to believe people would be ok if it the scene featured Jeyne and not Sansa. That's messed up. Personally, I think GRRM handles rape horribly - Jeyne's bedding wasnt necessary because we already knew Ramsay was a horrible person - but he doesnt get criticized. People are even quoting his blog to bash the show as if GRRM didnt write a scene that implied Jeyne was forced to do a dog. What did that add? Nothing.

The scene was changed, sure, but if came from GRRM's mind. It happened in his books.

3. Dont be ridiculous. Jorah got greyscale and JonCon doesnt even exist. The storylines combined so Jorah gets his fate. Why should what happened to JonCon happen to Jorah? They could have skipped the greyscale but they didnt. They could have left out the slavers but they didnt. Yes, they changed major things about Sansa's plot and could have changed more... but they didnt.

[R4W13Y]

The Freys and the Manderlys feuding at Winterfell would have been the sort of television that put the show on the map at the beginning. The conflict between the Northmen and the Freys - with so many great moments, like "The North remembers, Frey," and "Had he lived, he would have been a Frey" - is the important part of the Winterfell storyline. Everything else is just a contributing factor to that rising tension. Ding & Dong cut the heart out of Winterfell but kept the extraneous fArya for shock value. It says a lot about them.

I'll never understand some of the creative decisions they've made. Talisa was a sign of the coming winter.

Agree with literally everything you say, but had to single out this Talisa point. This was the beginning of me seriously questioning D&D and I wish I was part of these forums to "rant and rave" about that decision then.