Does anyone believe Jojenpaste?

[draft0]

Plausible and the piece fits, but lacking in real evidence.

Not comparable to Frey Pies which is clearly laid out every step of the way. Manderly's actions don't even make sense without Frey Pies. OTOH there's no reason Bran has to eat Jojen; no reason the weirdwood seeds wouldn't work as claimed.

[Lord BitterRaven]

i think it comes from the fact jojen has a sense of doom then we don't see him again

also he dies in the show (which isn't canon, but still)

The fact that he's always saying that "today is not the day I die" hints to me that his death is going to have meaning (Martin doesn't do things like this for nothing). So I'm a fan of the Jojen Paste theory.

[chrisdaw]

Is the Jojenpaste theory a weird but serious one that for whatever reason some of you actually believe, or a brilliant attempt at trolling that took off? I really can't tell.

Do you believe in coincidences?

He had never felt more like a cripple than he did then, watching helplessly as Meera Reed and Coldhands butchered the brave beast who had carried them so far. He told himself he would not eat, that it was better to go hungry than to feast upon a friend, but in the end he'd eaten twice, once in his own skin and once in Summer's.

Do you believe a theory reached independently by many readers is just coincidentally foreshadowed before hand? Do you see no design here? No contrivance, no man handling of the situation or manipulation in language (friend) to carry a theme or achieve a specific sentiment?

[Ibbison from Ibben]

I'm quite sure Jojen is already dead. This is why -

In one of the later Theon chapters, Theon, while in the godswood, hears crying. I think he heard Bran who had found out that Jojen was dead.

(That Theon chapter (The Turncloak - p542 in the American hardcover) comes after Bran III.)

I'm not sure about Jojenpaste. Weirwood paste seems to be the functional equivalent of Shade of the Evening, and I don't see how SotE could be produced by killing someone. Also, death pays for life. Bran is only getting improved communication skills.

I could accept Jojenblood as paste topping, I guess. Even watering the tree with a bit 'o Jojenblood. I'm staying openminded on this one.

[SevasTra82]

Jojen saw in his green dreams that he will die when he gets back to Greywater Watch (and that's the reason for his depression).

I'm not sure how more clear-cut you can get with this....

[Ser Ash the Red]

It could be true, but I think Jojen will have to say "Today is the day I die" before he dies.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Jojen saw in his green dreams that he will die when he gets back to Greywater Watch (and that's the reason for his depression).

I'm not sure how more clear-cut you can get with this....

The quote comes from Meera. (Bran III, ADwD)

"He wants to go home," Meera told Bran. "He will not even try and fight his fate. He says the greendreams do not lie."

This can be interpreted in a variety of ways. I read it as - Jojen has seen the day he dies. He wants to go home, but he has realized he in fact will die in the cave and will not fight it." Meera is speaking in a somewhat disjointed manner, which is understandable under the circumstances.

[Lost Melnibonean]

The quote comes from Meera. (Bran III, ADwD)

This can be interpreted in a variety of ways. I read it as - Jojen has seen the day he dies. He wants to go home, but he has realized he in fact will die in the cave and will not fight it." Meera is speaking in a somewhat disjointed manner, which is understandable under the circumstances.

Me too. But the statement could read either way. It definitely is not conclusive proof that Jojen is still alive and on his way home.

[draft0]

I'm not sure about Jojenpaste. Weirwood paste seems to be the functional equivalent of Shade of the Evening, and I don't see how SotE could be produced by killing someone. Also, death pays for life. Bran is only getting improved communication skills.

Good point, weirwood paste is basically the LSD/magic mushroom/weed of Westeros. Why wouldn't it work?

[Ser Patroclo]

Nope.

The quote comes from Meera. (Bran III, ADwD)

This can be interpreted in a variety of ways. I read it as - Jojen has seen the day he dies. He wants to go home, but he has realized he in fact will die in the cave and will not fight it." Meera is speaking in a somewhat disjointed manner, which is understandable under the circumstances.

I interpreted it as 'He knows he will die on the way home, he wants to go home to fulfil his fate'

[Masha]

The quote comes from Meera. (Bran III, ADwD)

This can be interpreted in a variety of ways. I read it as - Jojen has seen the day he dies. He wants to go home, but he has realized he in fact will die in the cave and will not fight it." Meera is speaking in a somewhat disjointed manner, which is understandable under the circumstances.

I sort of interpreting that Jojen knows that if he attempts to go home - he will die - at Greywater Watch itself or on the way there. He still wants to go home. And Meera laments that instead being OK with being here, in the cave alive, he tries to leave therefore going to his death.

I agree with Frey Pies, but this Jojen paste theory is too macabre.

[BobbyBDoinIt]

I think it makes a lot of sense and jojen definitely has some knowledge of his inevitable but necessary doom

[BitsOfBrains]

Nope.

I interpreted it as 'He knows he will die on the way home, he wants to go home to fulfil his fate'

i interpret that line as, "He wants to die, he wont even fight".

There have been several cases of "going home" as an anology for dying.

When Quentyn (maybe) died Missandei says something like, "his gods have taken him home, see he smiles".

When Brienne was about to kill that Bloody Mummer he says something like, "Send me back to Dorne you bloody bitch".

Also as a sacrifice he might, "join the old gods" and be able to watch over Greywater from a weirwood or something.

[Lost Melnibonean]

I've noted what I think are three subtle hints in Clash and Storm of what's to come. When Jon and Qhorin were running from Rattleshirt they mixed horse blood in their oates and Jon gaged on it. Arya thought of the taste of blood--completely out of context--when she entered the weirwood cave of the BWB. And Jon gaged when Aemon gave him milk of the poppy that mingled with blood in his mouth from biting his lip.

Ooh, and here's a fourth hint, from Game...

I am the blood of the dragon, she told herself as she took the stallion's heart in both hands, lifted it to her mouth, and plunged her teeth into the tough, stringy flesh.

Warm blood filled her mouth and ran down over her chin. The taste threatened to gag her, but she made herself chew and swallow.

Daenerys V, Game 46

[falcotron]

If Jojenpaste requires Jojen to be dead, then no. The app clearly lists Jojen as alive.

And the app also clearly lists Ned as Jon's father, which I guess resolves the R+L=J question.

Back on topic, my personal biggest problem with Jojenpaste is that if it's true, why is the truth kept from Bran? He doesn't even know Jojen is dead, and he's told he's eating paste of weirwood seeds. A "sacrifice" that doesn't require you to decide to sacrifice something, or even to know about it after the fact, just doesn't feel like it should be potent in this universe.

Mel needs to get Stannis to decide to sacrifice his nephews, she can't just do it behind his back; Dany has to be explicitly told that only death can pay for life and then kill Drogo before she gets her dragons; AA had to plunge the sword into NN's breast to create Lightbringer; etc. Are there any other instances of someone getting a reward for an unwitting sacrifice?

[Wouter]

And the app also clearly lists Ned as Jon's father, which I guess resolves the R+L=J question.

Back on topic, my personal biggest problem with Jojenpaste is that if it's true, why is the truth kept from Bran? He doesn't even know Jojen is dead, and he's told he's eating paste of weirwood seeds. A "sacrifice" that doesn't require you to decide to sacrifice something, or even to know about it after the fact, just doesn't feel like it should be potent in this universe.

It would be Jojen who makes the sacrifice; he came, knowing what would happen (if it is true, but signs IMO point to a version of the theory being true; his blood being given to a tree sounds about right). And the Children of the Forest plus Bloodraven, who would be aware of what they are doing.

Dany's dragons weren't aware of Drogo, Rhaego and Mirri being sacrificed for them, either.

[Ser Brandon Badwater]

Have i missed Jojen dying or bleeding out? He`s the cyclops of the story who knows where his death awaits, and his greendreams have a good track record. So it`s a no from me

[Stannis'_Barber]

That was one of the theories I thought up before seeing it on here. So yes I am a believer.

[falcotron]

It would be Jojen who makes the sacrifice; he came, knowing what would happen (if it is true, but signs IMO point to a version of the theory being true; his blood being given to a tree sounds about right). And the Children of the Forest plus Bloodraven, who would be aware of what they are doing.

Dany's dragons weren't aware of Drogo, Rhaego and Mirri being sacrificed for them, either.

But Dany is the main beneficiary of her hatching dragons. This isn't a talking-animals story where the dragons get PoVs and make the hard decisions and are ultimately the focus of the historical and magical drama; they're brute animals, and tools of human beings. (Of course we see humans being used as tools by other humans, but we also see how this affects them as humans, this not being a pro-slavery story, and how they still have a chance to control their own destiny.)

So, comparing Bran to Drogo doesn't fit. For Bran to gain great power, it feels like he has to make a great sacrifice. For Drogo, he just is great power, for someone else to gain, and it's that someone else who has to make a great sacrifice.

[BlackFyre > BlackFire]

well this is a new and completely terrible theory for me. Have to agree with those who said that line is indicating that he WANTS to go home but can't because his fate lies elsewhere.

that being said. holy crap is that terrible. i've been getting the impression that some reader's think that the children and BR are not good guys and I never understood where they were getting that from.

but this? this is terrible.

First Men had it right all along. Kill those f'ers and burn their trees. Poor jojen.