Wouter Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Is it ever stated that ingesting blood in any way helps magic? I have no problem believing that Jojen is dead, but I don't recall anything that said that anyone had to actually drink/eat the deceased to gain any extra abilities.No, but sacrifice has often been coupled to great feats of magic. The idea that Jojen was bled or outright killed/sacrificed before a heart tree, which then produced this particular red weirwood sap, is an intriguing one. If that is what happened, the Jojenpaste theory would still be essentially true, even though technically Bran did not "eat" Jojen. The chapter is too weird, too menacing to not feel that something bad happened. This time, Jojen did not say "today is not the day I die". If he knew it was the day, I doubt he'd be announcing it cheerfully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idio Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Wouter: yes, that is a scenario I could certainly see, way more than "Bran is currently eating Jojen's raw flesh". Although one might imagine that, even though this is a magical scenario we do not know the rules of, that trees might take a while to absorb the sacrifice and produce the sap from jojen. I think there is something interesting about the idea of the roots of the weirwod soaking up the blood of the sacrifice and transforming it. But to me, that is NOT what people who argue Jojenpaste are suggesting. Ultimately, we have seen so much magic come from sacrifice without ingesting the sacrifice mattering in any meaningful way. Certainly the Old Gods could be different than the sacrifices we've seen, but I still am skeptical of Jojen paste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jô Maltese Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 A life for a life... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wouter Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I think there is something interesting about the idea of the roots of the weirwod soaking up the blood of the sacrifice and transforming it. But to me, that is NOT what people who argue Jojenpaste are suggesting.I can't speak for everyone, but the way I see it the essential point of the "Jojenpaste" theory is that Jojen was sacrificed (and that he came to the cave, knowing that this would happen) to get Bran to access higher powers. Whether Jojen's blood was directly in the paste, or even (some of) his flesh, or if this was done through a hearttree absorbing the blood is but a detail. The very end of the chapter shows a tree (in the far past) absorbing blood from an executed captive, and has Bran tasting the blood from that sacrifice. Probably a hint that Bran realised just then what had happened. Theon did hear crying in the God's Wood at Winterfell at some point, and someone upthread wrote this may have Bran crying. I wouldn't be surprised it this was true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Why would Bran accept the death of Jojen? Why would he not realize what had happened in his POV? this is one of the many reasons jojen paste makes no sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wouter Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Why would Bran accept the death of Jojen? Why would he not realize what had happened in his POV? this is one of the many reasons jojen paste makes no senseHe may well have realised what had happened at the very end of his last POV. Like many, his POV ended up in a cliffhanger (where are Jojen and Meera?). As for why Bran would accept the death of Jojen - because he can't change it, anymore than he could change the death of Ned. Death doesn't care whether or not it is "accepted". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mother of The Others Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 It's good to assume blood fuels the tree magic and Jojen may be getting blood drawn from him to kickstart Bran's green-blood powers. It's bad to bring your other chosen assumptions to this party. Such as the children are in league with the Others or they're pure predators who don't follow guest rights and sacrifice all visitors like trapdoor spiders. (The piles of bones may have been animals they hunted which isn't evil and hostiles they fought which isn't evil either, and perhaps some they lured into death but who were never specially invited and shown hospitality.) If Bran is their golden boy, they probably don't want to be greedy and kill his best friend just for kicks. Have you considered the middle path here? Jojen wants to go home but knows he won't be. Uh, what about this:What if he's being incapacitated and prepped for tree surgery so they can hook him up to the trees like Bloodraven??? And as part of the process he's got excess blood loss for Bran to cherish. He may "burn out" his life as a tree-bound spark plug that helps ignite Bran's magic for performing a major feat, similar to how Melisandre needs to pump up with fire sacrifice. So that would provide Jojen with a particular day to envision as the time of his death. But like Bloodraven Jojen would only be doing what's required and has begrudgingly consented to it because he sees the necessity. It's not that the Children are jerks; the dire situation is the jerk. The extreme need. The spirit of this nature child species isn't so dark as Jojen Paste done behind Bran's back as they all cackle at the moon. They're strange, the Children, and their morays and folkways include things that'd offend our polite society such as blood sacrifice and consuming. But not with the evil intent y'all are attaching to it. That's what's unsubstantiated. They're simply outside our traditions and closer to the ways of the wild, not necessarily totally divorced from kindness and empathy and the valuing of human life. Proper hunters don't infuse cruelty into what they do, and don't take what's not needed. Clearly there's some gravity pulling Bran down the rabbit hole as soon as he starts eating the paste. He is being magnetically wed to the tree magic, as the mage said. No lies there. Suspicious circumstances, sure. That's what makes it fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wouter Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 The Jojenpaste theory does not require the Children to be in league with the Others, just as Melisandre isn't in league with the Others yet burns people alive as sacrifices. Jojen came willingly, so if this is what happened he seemed to accept his fate, at least until it became time for it to happen. As to why it would happen behind Bran's back - because otherwise he would stop it and/or refuse to eat the paste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idio Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I'm sorry if I've missed it, but do the books anywhere talk about the blood of Greenseer's being in any way special? Bloodraven opened Jon's mind by reaching out to him with his seemingly infinite powers. I still struggle to see why a figure like Bloodraven NEEDS a sacrifice to get Bran, The Chosen One, to awaken his True Powers. Bran is pretty badass as it is, as is Bloodraven. And some random Greenseer Crannogman is the only way they can achieve their goals? Just seems kind of strange to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I'm sorry if I've missed it, but do the books anywhere talk about the blood of Greenseer's being in any way special? Bloodraven opened Jon's mind by reaching out to him with his seemingly infinite powers. I still struggle to see why a figure like Bloodraven NEEDS a sacrifice to get Bran, The Chosen One, to awaken his True Powers. Bran is pretty badass as it is, as is Bloodraven. And some random Greenseer Crannogman is the only way they can achieve their goals? Just seems kind of strange to me.Did Bloodraven open Jon's third eye, or did Bran? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muggle Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 I buy in to it personally. First Men adopted the religion from TCOTF. We see in Brans vision and hear tales of older generations performing blood sacrifices to the Heart Tree. Its not so farfetched for me to believe TCOTF are still preforming blood sacrifices to there Heart Trees. Also I can totaly see Jojen allowing this to happen because "he has seen it" Plus he experienced first hand the wights and knows whats at stake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllOfTheHours Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 i think Jojenpaste is similar to the whole blood magic and religion stuff we've been seeing with R'hllor. So maybe the Old Gods also use Blood Magic? And I can see Jojen dying soon (whether he is paste or not) because he seems like he's near the end after the journey North and it would make Bran and BR the last greenseers. And if BR actually killed Jojen (or has the Children do it) than Bran will never trust him again. Leaving Bran lacking in any other greenseeing advisor/advisor he can trust with his life. I think it's possible, but I go back and forth on whether or not it is plausible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clegane'sPup Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Did Bloodraven open Jon's third eye, or did Bran? Does Jon have a third eye? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Melnibonean Posted June 30, 2015 Share Posted June 30, 2015 Does Jon have a third eye?I think so...http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/113297-some-questions-about-jon-and-brans-hookup-on-the-weirnet/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clegane'sPup Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 I think so...http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/113297-some-questions-about-jon-and-brans-hookup-on-the-weirnet/Aughhh, dude/dudette :kiss: , reading material for tomorrow. why ya wanta do dat. :grouphug: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idio Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 Did Bloodraven open Jon's third eye, or did Bran?Sure, there are many moments for which--when you realize time is flat for weirnet champions, and you realize Bran is the whisper on the wind to many characters--where you imagine Bran reaching back in time and perhaps to have been influencing or at least whispering at many pivots events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady of Butterflies Posted July 1, 2015 Share Posted July 1, 2015 No, and I think this is absurd. Jojen will die, but because he's sick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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