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[Book Spoilers] EP507 Discussion

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Do you really think we had Sansa and LF discussing Lyanna Stark for any other reason other than to explain Jon's parentage? Or even all that talk of Rhaegar earlier and those little cuts to Jon whenever a Targaryen is mentioned (Like Aemon's lonely Targ line)?

100% they will reveal R+L=J in the show. LF and Sansa discussing Rhaegar and Lyanna. Ser Berristan telling Dany about Rhaegar. Stannis expressing he didn't believe Jon was actually Ned's. Maester Aemon talking about Targaryen's then the camera pans right to Jon. There is the in-show evidence. All just from this season. They are maybe over doing it. It's being layed in quite thick.

The possibility that you might be wrong on this doesn't seem to have occurred to you. They might not reveal R+L=J on the show because the theory might be nonsense.

Of course Jon has to be a Targarean to ride the dragons. But he also has to be legitimate, remember the conversation with Tyrion?

Sure a lot of people making nasty bullying comments and making thousands of posts can create the illusion that there are no problems with the notion. But I find their arguments about being a bastard not making any difference and it being OK for Lyanna to sleep around or Rheagar to be a rapist are rather hollow no matter how many times they repeat them.

If you look at the show alone there is absolutely no bar to R+E=J. We have not heard any evidence that rules out Elia as the mother. In fact in the show we have no bar on Jon being Aegon because the timelines can be different.

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If you find using a sexual assault on Gilly as a means to get Sam laid "interesting," then I guess that's your opinion.

The point is that the NW is formed of criminals and Gilly is in danger as a result. Also to show that Jon is going to have serious difficulty controlling them.

This is to motivate Sam going to OldsTown with Gilly so Jon is alone when the pink letter arrives.

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The point is that the NW is formed of criminals and Gilly is in danger as a result. Also to show that Jon is going to have serious difficulty controlling them.

Two things we already knew (heck, were already part of the episode) without having to have Gilly assaulted in order to get Sam laid.

This is to motivate Sam going to OldsTown with Gilly so Jon is alone when the pink letter arrives.

If Sam goes to Oldtown it will be because Castle Black needs a Maester, and I think he could make a really strong case for Gilly and her baby accompanying him from the Wall (which, again, is preparing for its most difficult challenge since The Long Night) without D&D having her sexually assaulted. There was absolutely no narrative necessity to her being attacked.

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If you find using a sexual assault on Gilly as a means to get Sam laid "interesting," then I guess that's your opinion.

Almost no show, movie, or book will hold up to scrutiny of individual scenes throughout. The question is whether the end result as a whole is entertaining or interesting such that a viewer, reader, or consumer would appreciate it or learn something from it. It is very difficult to ever tell whether or not a series or movie would be better or worse absent one scene unless random groups of people view or read the end result with and without that scene and a survey is taken about their opinions of the series or movie.

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The problem with Sansa's arc is that she's just gone back to square one. It's after Ned died all over again. Essentially, 1) Sansa is a hostage, 2) Sansa's jailer is abusive, 3) Sansa's jailer shows her something unpleasant (Ned's head or flayed woman), 4) Sansa acts stupid (seriously, telling Theon about your only escape was dumb, not to mention calling Ramsey a bastard). Her character hasn't grown at all, it's actually reverted. That's the problem with shoehorning her into this story. Also, her being there makes no sense; LF is risking her life without cause and she is an incredibly valuable piece to risk. I don't know if her Vale stuff would be more interesting, but it must be better than what we have currently.



The other problem is that the show-writers' decision to make Sansa the focus takes away from the best chapters of all the books: Reek in Winterfell. That arc had everything: mystery, intrigue, character growth, great characters, some reader-revenge, killer lines... But by removing the Northern Lords and Freys, we lose most of this. No Manderly means no Frey pies. There's no mystery killer, offing soldiers in the snow. They decided to omit Roose's best line, and I'm hoping they don't leave out some other great ones. I know 'the show is not the books, there's going to be differences, show can't do everything the books can etc.' and I understand and accept that. But it's such a wasted opportunity.



Having Sansa be the victim here in place of Jeyne Poole/Fake Arya also takes away from Theon's development as well (by the way, Theon is actually forced to take part in the book version of the bedding, so both are raped). By making it Sansa, somebody Theon knows well and will have a natural impulse to help, instead of someone Theon barely knew means that if he helps her, it will matter less. All those Northern Lords cared about Ramsey hurting Arya Stark, but Theon cared about him hurting a stranger.



Dorne was laughable. That entire plot of Bronn getting poisoned was just an excuse to see the actress' breasts. Jaime and Myrcella was like some stupid teen romance film. How anyone can even imagine that this stuff is better than the book version baffles me.



I'd find Melisandre easier to take seriously if BALON GREYJOY wasn't still walking about (remember him, D&D?). Also, Stannis reacted to that news like he had mild indigestion.



The Faith Militant has no grey in it whatsoever. They're basically ISIS.



Tyrion and Jorah not being given full-body inspections is ridiculous. Jorah especially. He's going to be a pit fighter; a buyer would want to ensure that Jorah is in good health. Also the massive amount of coincidence necessary to get them to meet Dany was eyeroll worthy, but at least they're there.



Very confused as to what LF's gift to Olenna actually was. Lancel? That doesn't seem to make much sense.



Gilly almost being raped is troubling, especially since afterwards she then has sex with Sam immediately. Also, Jon just left Ghost at the Wall? Why?



That's all I can think to say about it really. Disappointing.


Edited by WSmith84

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Why did we need to be reminded YET AGAIN that the NW is full of unsavory characters, or that they're not really trustworthy. It's not like that hasn't been made abundantly clear in the past, so the point is what exactly?



Also, I'm sure that attempted rape is just the thing to get a woman "in the mood." Wow, I feel dumber just typing that, great job there D&D.


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The problem with Sansa's arc is that she's just gone back to square one. It's after Ned died all over again. Essentially, 1) Sansa is a hostage, 2) Sansa's jailer is abusive, 3) Sansa's jailer shows her something unpleasant (Ned's head or flayed woman), 4) Sansa acts stupid (seriously, telling Theon about your only escape was dumb, not to mention calling Ramsey a bastard). Her character hasn't grown at all, it's actually reverted. That's the problem with shoehorning her into this story. Also, her being there makes no sense; LF is risking her life without cause and she is an incredibly valuable piece to risk. I don't know if her Vale stuff would be more interesting, but it must be better than what we have currently.

The other problem is that the show-writers' decision to make Sansa the focus takes away from the best chapters of all the books: Reek in Winterfell. That arc had everything: mystery, intrigue, character growth, great characters, some reader-revenge, killer lines... But by removing the Northern Lords and Freys, we lose most of this. No Manderly means no Frey pies. There's no mystery killer, offing soldiers in the snow. They decided to omit Roose's best line, and I'm hoping they don't leave out some other great ones. I know 'the show is not the books, there's going to be differences, show can't do everything the books can etc.' and I understand and accept that. But it's such a wasted opportunity.

Having Sansa be the victim here in place of Jeyne Poole/Fake Arya also takes away from Theon's development as well (by the way, Theon is actually forced to take part in the book version of the bedding, so both are raped). By making it Sansa, somebody Theon knows well and will have a natural impulse to help, instead of someone Theon barely knew means that if he helps her, it will matter less. All those Northern Lords cared about Ramsey hurting Arya Stark, but Theon cared about him hurting a stranger.

Dorne was laughable. That entire plot of Bronn getting poisoned was just an excuse to see the actress' breasts. Jaime and Myrcella was like some stupid teen romance film. How anyone can even imagine that this stuff is better than the book version baffles me.

I'd find Melisandre easier to take seriously if BALON GREYJOY wasn't still walking about (remember him, D&D?). Also, Stannis reacted to that news like he had mild indigestion.

The Faith Militant has no grey in it whatsoever. They're basically ISIS.

Tyrion and Jorah not being given full-body inspections is ridiculous. Jorah especially. He's going to be a pit fighter; a buyer would want to ensure that Jorah is in good health. Also the massive amount of coincidence necessary to get them to meet Dany was eyeroll worthy, but at least they're there.

Very confused as to what LF's gift to Olenna actually was. Lancel? That doesn't seem to make much sense.

Gilly almost being raped is troubling, especially since afterwards she then has sex with Sam immediately. Also, Jon just left Ghost at the Wall? Why?

That's all I can think to say about it really. Disappointing.

This.

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Not exactly. Olenna basically admitted as much to Margaery, after the Purple Wedding.

'Basicall' isn't the same as 'literally.' Pretty sure this was the first time we here someone literally say that they killed Joffrey.
Does that fix it for you?

Ps. shows a real hand of D&D imo. GRRM never states 'facts' this obvious. He just mentions more than 1 people being suspicions, which makes it 'true'.

You don't think that refusing to be rescued from the Dreadfort by his own sister showed how "messed up" Theon is? :huh:

Not as batshit crazy as he is in the books. Yeah before Theon was arrogant and he took initiative. Yeah, he is humble and submissive now (and to scared of Ramsay to trust anyone), and yeah we see that. But the fact that his mind is totally fucked up wasn't that clear up until now. He isn't just scared of Ramsay. He actually thinks he is Reek, and not Theon.

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This is the perfect thread to tell a bunch of random strangers what I think about this episode. Too many whiners over at the Nitpick thread and too many tree-hugging liberals over at the positive nitpick thread, I liked and disliked some stuff so Ill list both here:



Opening Credits



Nitpick: I hate that giant snake thingy at the opening credits. It’s just too goofy and Mardi Gras-ish. There’s all these real-life actual sites and monuments like Mereen and The Wall and even Titan of Braavos, then at the end it has this giant snake coiled around a tower? I’ve read the five ASOIAF books twice, and I want to reread in time for WoW, but I don’t remember the big goofy snake thing in Dorne…but I might have just missed the description. Any know-it-all book/Youtube fanatics can clarify this?



Scene 1: The Wall




+ Nitpick: I think it’s awesome how it starts with Jon preparing to ride off to Hardhome. Watch closely and you see him sheath Longclaw on his horse. That was a secretly powerful opening to me, and it has much significance. Long claw is Jeor Mormont’s old sword that he gave to Jon. Jeor also caused a bunch of cataclysmic shit when he did the exact same thing before taking 300 Night’s Watch beyond the wall only to see most of them killed by the White Walkers. It really (silently drives the point (sorry for the pun) home that Jon’s plan, like Jeor’s is stupid and reckless and will likely get a lot of people killed.



Nitpick: Okay, I feel really bad for Lil’ Olly at this point. Sure, I hate it when the kid nods like a fucking retard, but seriously, his dad is laughing ad telling him jokes and then takes an arrow through the eye. His mom is chopped to death with an axe by the very same man who Jon is being buddy buddy with and riding off to find more Wildlings to let through the gate (Notice how Jon also sheathed an axe…). On top of that, Jon delicately carried a dead Wildling (who happened to be the one to kill Olly’s mom) and gave it a little kiss before burning her with full Night’s Watch honors (see Aemon’s death and the random Night’s Watch guy who they burned right before the big non-empowering Craster’s rape scene.


I think this is a Nit-Pick because the show producer’s are too caught up with head nods instead of zooming in on the pain and torture and psychosis that Olly has in his eyes.



Nitpick: I thought when Tormund was brought out it was too cop movie-ish. I think Tormund went overboard a bit with the whole “Fuck the law, I’m outta this bitch, bitches”. Jon pretending not to notice didn’t help, and it made the (probably) impending Ides of March more tragic, and ultimately necessary. The fan girls must be shitting their pants by now. The heroic Jon turning into a hopeless fuckwit. He better get his act together, or else he won’t be able to ride off on the dragon with Dany;) Oh yeah btw, it’s pretty obvious that R+L DOES NOT=J for OBVIOUS reasons. Another post on that later, maybe.



+Nitpick: I love how the producers show how quickly unpopular Jon is getting without going overboard to point it out. Notice how he rides off with nobody to wish him farewell except for Sam. The looks of anger or refusal to look at all. Jon’s days are numbered no matter what, and it shows without an extra word needed. Even the music is oddly bitter. Jon’s exchange with Ser Alliser Thorne was spot-on. You can tell he’s going through all of the formalities because when he betrays Jon and assumes command for himself, the men will still follow the old way. It’s tragic because as weirdly "noble" Alliser is being with the betrayal itself, there can be no more Night’s Watch. It’s over. it’s done. It’s just that nobody realizes it yet.



Scene 2: The Wall/Maester Aemon’s Deathbed.



+Nitpick: It’s brilliant that they were able to bring Unsullied and slow book readers up to speed on who the hell Maester Aemon is and how he’s connected to the Targaryan family by using Gilly’s ignorance.



Nitpick: I know it was supposed to be Maester Aemon’s time to shine in his final moments, but WAAAAAAYYYYYYY too long! It was sad at first, then mildly annoying, then strangely uncomfortable. After a while you just want the old man to die and be out of his misery so we can see some Sand Snakes boobies. The sadness was also taken away a bit because instead of some actual sage advice (DUH! GET THE FUCK OUTTA THERE, GILLY), we get Aemon going out like a senile old coot. As a Targaryan, I think he should have been allowed a little more dignity than that.



+Nitpick: I love the air of mystery that we also get surrounding Aemon’s death, without presenting it as one. Gill tells Sam that he’ll need to speak for Aemon tomorrow…Sam says “You Don’t Know That”… Sure, guy’s on his deathbed but how DID she know that? BUM BUM BUMMMMMMM!!!



“Poison is a woman’s weapon”



Did Gilly somehow convince Sam to help guide Aemon to the afterlife? The next scene after Aemon clasps Sam’s hands, and Sam looks defeated, we see Aemon dead on the funeral pyre. Hmmmm….



If it did happen, then Gilly would have done it thinking that Sam would be in charge or “speaking for Aemon” and he’d be able to protect her. It’s reasonable, considering her limited knowledge and understanding of Night Watch politics and she’s been there for a while and probably is sensing danger coming. She seemed awful chirpy about watching over Aemon and was pretty confident that Sam would be speaking the very next day. Amends been sick for a while, Sam wasn’t speaking for him then, so why now all of a sudden?



Brilliant fucking move, D&D…simply fucking brilliant.




Scene 3/Scene 4: Sansa/Theon



Nitpick: Whoa, whoa whoa…at this point I’m noticing how DARK things are like everywhere. I know winter is coming eider eider and it symbolically represents how bleak everything is getting for the north yadda yadda…but come on I want to SEE Theon and Sansa…this isn’t a fucking mystery movie here. If this is autumn, are we going to have to “just imagine” what’s going on when winter hits?



Nitpick: Why the fuck is Theon serving Sansa her food? That weird “North Remembers” lady changed like one shit pail and called it a day? Okay, MAYBE Ramsay sent Theon to check Sansa out and see if she’d spill any beans, but how about an explanation or a random question of “what are YOU doing here?”



+Nitpick: Sansa is an empty-headed child, but DAMN that was some pretty good acting, especially when her eye twitches a little when she talks about Ramsay “coming” (heh heh) every night. It’s also too bad that its so dark we don’t see the bruises on her arms that well, but in retrospect make that’s why they made the whole thing so dark anyway post-production. The “Sansa got raped” crowd would go nuts and clog up the boards even worse than before. Seriously, I read like a ten-page essay by a rape victim who wrote a rant on how episode 6 was “not okay”



Nitpick: Sansa: YOU BETRAYED MY FAMILY…but whatever. My family still has friends in the North, light a candle in the Tower and they will come to save me! Please don’t tell Ramsay!!!!



Theon: REEK! My name is REEK!



Sansa: Now THAT’s empowerment!…*puts on retro 80’s shades*…Sansa style!



(Is this the Sansa “manipulation” all the feminists were rooting for? Yeah, okay)



+Nitpick: It’s great how Sansa reminds Theon who he really is and more than likely reminded him of how he hates her. Great job to the writers for making it cool to bash Sansa again!



+Nitpick: AMAZING shot of Theon walking outside and we see the tower. We almost don’t stop to wonder how the fuck is anyone going to see a candle in a snow storm from all the way up there and how the fuck is that candle supposed to NOT go out? Anyway, cue Theon marching right past and up to Ramsay. We truly see just how much Ramsay has tortured Theon past the point of resistance…or has he REALLY? Some guy did what Ramsay did to me, maybe I’d stick around for a while too….just to kill him slowly…



Nitpick: So Brienne isn’t cold at all just standing there staring at a fucking castle? Where the fuck is Pod? POD!!! At least have her walk away or toward the fucking castle. Don’t just stand there looking defeated. That’s not very empowering!!!



Scene 4: Aemon’s funeral



+Nitpick: Awesome how the scene is almost a direct mirror of that fateful night when the Nights Watch MUTINY took place. Sam surrounded by a bunch of angry and very hungry men. A fire burning, and you can feel the evil starting to spread in the air. It doesn’t look good for the Night’s Watch. Internet, prepare to be broken.



Nitpick: Why did they have Alliser make that mean comment right then? Yes, we know he’s a douchbag, but it’s Maester Aemon’s fucking funeral for fucking sake! Have some fucking respect for the fucking man! Show producers, stop this tv-show bullshit. The whole point of GoT is that there are no easy choices. Sure, Alliser wants command for himself for selfish reasons, but you’re overshadowing the fact that they are GOOD reasons. Jon is just like his BROTHER, Robb. Stupid ideas and stupid convictions imagined up by green boys who have never seen war before. We don’t need writers and producers holding our hands and telling us this is a bad guy and he’s a good guy. We’re big boys and girls now, let us go by ourselves to hang out at Grandpa George’s house.



Nitpick: Shot of Night’s Watch standing together to see Aemon off to the afterlife, but one half looks like Night’s Watch battle-hardened men and the other side is made up almost completely of boys who look young than 19. Are we to believe these guys survived and everyone else got killed? Someone should check HBO underage hiring practices.



+Nitpick: “You’re losing all your friends, Tarly.” Cue shot of Night’s Watch member with murder in his eye. BTW, where the fuck is Dolorous Edd for this scene? He knows Sam has no other friends. Brilliant how we see Sam’s face realizing that he’s literally defenseless and surrounded by guys who want to kill him. Haha, way to go Jon. I hope Olly gets you right in the fucking eye.



Scene 6: Ramsay/Sansa?”North Remembers” Lady



+Nitpick: This whole scene is fucking brilliant. How everything just fits. Sansa forced to meet Ramsay at the top of Winterfell, just like she was summoned by Joffrey at KL who giggled as he showed off her dead father’s severed head. The look on his face when she first approaches…Did Theon REALLY tell?



+Nitpick: “Fat, bearded beast” line was genius! I guess they threw in “bearded” so people wouldn’t cry foul on insensitivity to fat Walda. Line of the decade!



Nitpick: When Ramsay walks along the rampart with Sansa, there’s a guy working at drawing up a bucket or something. It really bugs me that he didn’t turn and say “M’lord” or something. What bugs me even more is how Ramsay doesn’t seem to notice the blatant disrespect, highly uncharacteristic for someone so sensitive about his status and title.



Nitpick: Sassy Sansa?? Oh man, maybe those nutty feminists had some kind of effect on the producers! I mean, I could see Joffry gulping like some idiot, but I was a little disappointed that Ramsay didn’t punch her in the face for her use of the term “Bastard” with such a sneer in her voice. It was just weird how he didn’t do anything. Guess he can’t hurt her or all the townspeople would rebel, but he should have at least whispered “You’ll be sorry for that” or SOMETHING! Oh well, if it keeps the bra burners off our backs for a week or so, then I guess its worth it (Yes, I know bras weren’t actually burned and thats a myth, but work with me here)


It’s not about the violence, it’s about staying in character.



Nitpick: Yes the flayed old woman of Winterfell was beautifully horrifying, but "where’s the beef”?! It had too much of a “re-edit” feel to it and it makes me wonder if HBO is second-guessing itself. One word of advice: STOP LISTENING TO THESE PANTY-TWISTED TWIST PANTIES, AND KEEP MAKING RAW, UNFLINCHING SHOWS LIKE YOU USED TO!



Nitpick: Ramsay ushers in his henchmen to take Sansa to her prison without raising his voice. I didn’t even see the Bluetooth headpiece.



+Nitpick: Brilliant fucking acting from Ramsay.



Scene 6: Stannis!!!!!



NitpickL Hey, wait a minute! Didn’t they already use these mountains to introduce us to the Thenns? Hey, these aren’t even mountains! They’re just set pieces covered in dry ice!



+Nitpick: Brilliant fucking exchange between Stannis and Davos. I loved how Davos reluctantly tells Stannis how the Stormcrows rode off in the night. It reminds me of seasons past, when Davos argued that they should use sellswords and Stannis refutes him saying sellswords aren’t trustworthy. With them leaving, all is truly fucked it seems. Also a great “told ya so” moment for Stannis. The guy needs to be right about something for a change. Also great how Mel is there, too. Twice she warned Stannis so far, and twice Davos failed. Plus, the war would have been won if they had just been able to burn Gentry. Oh, well. Thanks, Davos.



Nitpick: Stannis, first of his name, king of the Andals and the First Men, lord of the seven kingdoms, and Protector of the realm can’t even get a piece of ass on a cold day. Way to go, Mel! Show ‘em that you’re empowered! Kissing costs extra!


I guess no fire boobies this week, or shadow demon babies for that matter.



Scene 7: Sam and Gilly



Nitpick: *Yawn* Wow, more Sam and Gilly. Yay. Why are they even still here? Gill should have been sent away a long time ago, but Jon allows her to stay because Sam is his pal. Way to win friends, and influence people, Jonny boy.



+Nitpick: Sam getting his ass kicked is cool. And the way he kind of smiles as he gets punched is hypnotizing. Punch him again.



Nitpick: The Ghost of Night’s Watch saves Sam (with nary a growl). Okay, I know Sam needed a save and Gilly couldn’t possibly be raped so soon after Sansa’s episode, so I guess it’s up to Ghost to save the day. Not a wise-cracking Dolorous Edd or a sneering Ser Alliser, but a CGI dire wolf that disappears just as suddenly as he appears. Okay, I know CGI is expensive, but come on, would it have been to hard to starve an actual dog and record the growls he makes? *Please don’t mistreat animals, folks. It’s sick and NOT funny. I was just joking, honest!*



Nitpick: Would-be rapists run off like some cheesy Disney heist movie or the agents in The Matrix. At least one of them should have been ripped to shreds. Dogs don’t just smell fear and let you run away to rape another day. They get excited and rip your throat out.



Nitpick: Sam gets laid for the first time…like a little bitch! Empowerment time, girls! Ride that horse! Straddle that pony! If he won’t break those vows to save your child’s life, then he better break em when you give him some! It’s so funny, everyone can’t wait to see Sansa manipulate Ramsay, but Sam is getting winger-dingered big time!



+Nitpick: Gilly is a dirty little Wildling…



Scene 8: Tyrion and Jorah



Nitpick: The show is fine at this point, but I’m starting to take issue with people complaining about “black slavers”. I won’t go into too much because there’s such a VAST and WIDE SPANNING history on the subject, but please people, READ A FUCKING HISTORY BOOK.-Sincerely, Random Black Guy on ASOIAF forums.



Nitpick: Where the fuck did they find Anabeesi?



Nitpick: Tyrion bing able to call out and get the slaver’s attention without being punched or kicked is amazing. I noticed this time inconsistency last episode as well, when Tyrion had time to plead his case before almost getting his throat cut. Producers, stop editing in so much time for witty rebuttals and quips from Tyrion, and sum it all up in one frenzied, desperate sentence next time.



+Nitpick: Tyrion: “Yo, so how much o’ dat moolah you finn ta be splittin’ wit da homies mah nig-*SLAP*



Slave Master: There’s your wages , funny man. They should last the rest of your life.



Jorah: Damn, son! You got knocked da fuck out!!!




Nitpick: Just noticed how quiet that lively slave auction was.



Nitpick: Wait, Tyrion has super-strength now? I know some dwarves are supposed to have super upper body strength, but Tyrion hardly moved! The guy was looking at him the whole time, so its not like he just got whammied outta nowhere….oh well, take THAT pirate slaver token non-black guy who’s sole purpose is to promote equality and diversity in the slaver pirate world so audience members watching won’t have much of a leg to stand on when they ignorantly spout how racist such a historically accurate portrayal is in a fantasy epic!



Scene 9: Dany and Daario



Nitpick: Wow, great…a sexless pillow talk scene with Dany and Daario. It’s so hot! Like, totally. It’s like…like…crazy tasteful, and I love how she unrealistically covers her boobs like some old 90’s soap opera. YAWN!



Nitpick: Wait, so, Dany says she won’t round up the Masters and slaughter them because she is not a butcher, but yet two episodes ago she randomly picked one and fed him to her dragons? Ummm…Pick a side Dany! Dario is sounding less and less like an eventual traitor and more and more like an eventual traitor with good reasons to betray Dany. Chick is a friggin lunatic! You already mercilessly crucified one half of the Masters now how about you kill the other half thats more than likely funding the Harpies!



Nitpick: No harpies. Dany is blissfully relaxed and calm and horny mere nights after Barristan was ruthlessly stabbed in a dark, dirty alley. Selfish direwolf.



+Nitpick: Everyone likes meat. Except vegetarians, and crazy people of course.




Scene 10: Olenna and High Sparrow



+Nitpick: Olenna’s back and she’s as snarky as ever! High Sparrow better smarten up or she’ll clip his ear, good! How empowering!



Nitpick: Okay, Olenna is overdoing it, now. At this point, she’s blatantly threatening the man who holds both her granddaughter and grandson in a dirty cell, and she threatens to cut off the food supply. Okay, must be the food supply for the rest of KL and not the prison cells. Way to negotiate, but stay empowered!



+Nitpick: High Sparrow is doing a really good job of keeping up his chuckling grandfather routine. Ive read reviews on top gaming sites talking about how he’s so pure and convicted in his faith. Incorruptible. Haha, great writing and awesome directing. This guy’s got half the ASOIAF fooled! Hope he doesn’t pull any switcheroos or anything by the end of the episode.



Nitpick: Instead of HS using Olenna’s threat to remind her that cutting off the wheat supply would affect Marg and Loras, he wastes precious switcheroo time to give a lecture on class relations and why we need more fiber in our diets. Just admit that you’re an evil fuck and you have a band of fanatical militants under your thumb and that you have just engineered one of the most ingenious hostile usurps in all of Westeros history! You old bastard, you. You terrify us all when you say those spooky “When the many stop fearing the few” lines that you just leave hanging in the air. You old bastard, you.



+Nitpick: Olenna’s fucked, and she knows it.



Nitpick: Or is she? I’m pretty nitpick about this “sequential” show layout the producers have taken to be the standard. What happened to us seeing what happens next in segments? Now its just from Point A to B. I think the show is being dumbed down for Unsullied viewers. How about a trip to the local library instead?



Scene 12: Tommen (BARF) and Cersei (Still Sane)



Nitpick: Tommen is a little bitch. His voice is high like a six-year old and Michael Jackson’s family is suing for defamation of character. Case in point, Tommen is a little bitch. Wow, he gets mad and threatens to kill every last one of the sparrows, but alas, he’s a little bitch. I’m watching and getting excited at the pair growing that I am watching right before my eyes (no home-o) and then snort as Tommen lowers his head and fails to do anything. If you’re not going to be tough at least look suspiciously at your mom who is taking this all surprisingly well. At least evoke some sort of sense. Man, they should have kept 8 year old Tommen because nothing about this Tommen is any different. It’s like this dude actually read the books and was like “Tommen acts like…THIS”. This is the perfect time for people to shout at Tommen through their magic casting glass and shout “TOMMEN, THATS IN THE BOOKS DUMBASS!” Then the day would be saved because Tommen could act without coming across like a little bitch.



+Nitpick: “Any man that must say he is the king is no true king”-Tywin Lannister (Deceased)



“I’M THE KING!!”-Joffrey, First of his Name (Deceased)



“I’M THE KING!…AND THERE’S NOTHING I CAN DO!” *SOB*-Tommen, First of his Name (Truly Fucked)



Nitpick: It’s still obvious Cersei isn’t actually acting in the same shot as her acting mates. They keep using stand-ins to pretend they are actually talking to each other. It’s annoying because you see the lighting changes and the stand-in actors don’t even move like who they are copying. Tome’s stand-in looks like Jamie from behind (is it the Jaime stand in?) an Cersei’s stand-in moves with the grace of an Acme anvil heading towards a city street.



Scene 13: Douchebag Jaime and Myrcella the Spoilt Brat



+Nitpick: Myrcella is pretty hot.



Nitpick: WTF did they do to Jaime!?!? Apart from more stand-in actors, the guy sounds like he woke up in a fucking daze or something. This whole scene is short and pointless. Out of all the things Myrcella could have talked about (you know like the attempted kidnapping and brutal beating of her fiancé, if jaime is hurt, what happened to Bronn etc…) she opts for a tantrum about having to go home too early after the big dance. They don’t discuss the consequences of what just happened, in fact Jaime doesn’t seem to realize he just broke about a dozen peace treaties and that he’s a Lannister who did all of these things, so shit is going to hit the fan. You’re locked up and you’ve just triggered a war that your sister and son will be forced to contend with by themselves, and you’re worried about Myrcella rightfully not being pleased about you being there? Prioritize, man! (said the guy who is ranting on public forum s instead of doing his course projects)



Nitpick: Not enough kicking Jaime in the balls.



Scene 14: Sand Snakes (*sigh*) and Bronn (Okay maybe it won’t all be bad)



Nitpick: You suck at singing, Bronn. And you made it worse by recording that shit in a studio first.



+Nitpick: Bronn not taking any shit. Classic Bronn snark. Looks like he’s escaping with the Sand Snakes and not getting executed after all. I hope this doesn’t make Doran angry and his subjects demanding that someone should pay. Oh, and I hope that someone isn’t Jaime.



+Nitpick: FINALLY! Some boobie action! Yes, sure okay, you’re the most beautiful woman I’ve ever seen, now let’s play Twister (said Bronn;) Great setup by Tyene to save the man she had fallen for. Great exit for producers to keep Bronn after all. Great day for the devil.



Nitpick: I rolled my eyes at the “most beautiful woman in the world” dialogue. I also noticed how editors took great effort to make sure shadows were on her face and how it cut to Bronn when she asked the question (conveniently with the cell bar covering most of her beautiful face). HBO, instead of having the Sand Snakes cast lots to see who has to flash boobies, how about you reinforce their confidence? I think Tyene is attractive. Most beautiful in the world? Well, maybe not, but she could have sold the idea more. But still...boobies!



+Nitpick: Tyene trumped Bronn and showed how empowered she was…AND she did it by actually flashing her boobs! Way to go! Braun’s like “Got Antidote?” (Instead of “Got Milk”….see it’s funny!…HEY!!)




Nitpick: Wait, oh no! HBO didn’t start ANOTHER romance did they? Oh, shit! Hmmm…unless they are getting ready to destroy one…classic HBO…classic D&D.



Scene 15: Littlefinger and Olenna



Nitpick: Wow, more Olenna snarkiness. Okay, we get it. "The bitch is back”. Her threats are pretty cool, though. She kind of looks like the Emperor from Star Wars in some shots. So maybe its not that bad.



+Nitpick: Tommen is fucked.



Scene 16: Jorah and Tyrion meet Dany at the Slave Pits (Oh yeah, and Hizdahr is here, too. Mom made me bring him along)



+Nitpick: Finally, we some BLOOOOOOOD!! KILL! KILL! BUTCHER!!!! Dany looking on in horror is oddly hypocritical and we all know it. There it is, for all the world to see! The fall of Danaerys Targaryan!



Nitpick: Jorah going all beast mode looks dumb and is illogical. I guess they usually kept the pit gates open for cowardly fighters to run through as they please. No need to KILL any of these men, that would be butchery! Then the guards grab him and I half expect him to scream DANNNNNYYYYYYYYYYYYY in agony as he holds a boombox over his head. Tyron strolls out and presents himself, all haughty, the pretentious little shit. Finally, now we can put this silly Greyscale business behind us. …or CAN we???? BUM BUM BUMMMMMM!!!




Scene 17: Cersei Separate Scener, Margaery Ty-Smell, High and Mighty Sparrow



Nitpick: Cersei isn’t even remotely suspicious? Well, okay? I guess if that’s how it is in the books…



Nitpick: Still too dark. I want to SEE Marg covered in dirt and her own waste. She doesn’t seem to be too shaken up at being thrown in prison. It comes off like she is having a bad tan day at the salon or something.



Nitpick: LOL @ HS patting a stone podium and it makes a hollow sounding noise.



+Nitpick: Great acting by Cersei as it slowly dawns on her that she’s fucked. Enter Lancel, obviously scared from his encounter with Littlefinger so he preemptively confesses his sins, lest the shrewd bastard rats him out.



+Nitpick: Cersei with the cool line about last thing nuns will see before they die. Who needs The Stranger when Cersei is sneering at you?



+Nitpick: Great ending scene and great ending music. Bittersweet and sad.



Thanks for reading! Now watch this video I made! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRd1Zb7mHEA


Edited by RedRonnet

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The problem with Sansa's arc is that she's just gone back to square one.

She never left square one.

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Did the Queen of Thorns' nick 'perfumed ponce' from 'Withnail and I'? She does like her gay put-downs, but this made me think the High Sparrow was going to blurt out 'which fucker said that?'.


Edited by Daske

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I don't see what the issue is with Tyene. Remember the character who was cut. Tyene clearly is taking elements of that character into her own. Furthermore Tyene set out to kill Bronn when they fought, she only changed her mind after when they were conveniently put into cells across from each other than Bronn proving interesting to her (His fighting skills are pretty great too, so he humbled her when he beat her). Thus the poisoning wasn't pointless. Furthermore, Tyene seducing and saving Bronn most likely means she plans to try and get him wrapped into a plot of hers later. As for "never leaving Dorne", well... They never said Bronn had to die. For all we know he is convinced to betray Jaime for a bigger prize by Tyene and then retires into Dorne.



Tyene seducing Bronn had a purpose too, it was meant to force the poison to work faster. Had Bronn not had his blood pumping the poison would have taken much longer to start affecting him.



This is a departure from the books, sure, but it's far more interesting for Bronn's character that's for sure.



I also don't see the point in all the fuss about Sansa. Clearly she's taking another minor characters role and she's desperate, furthermore it would be cheap if Theon turned so easily. Now she knows she's alone and has to take things into her own hands and I'm sure the pay-off will be glorious when the season ends.



My only issue with the episode was the almost rape scene which was followed by the victim immediately bedding her "savior" after tending to his wounds. It simply rubbed me off the wrong way.



-



Long term viewer of the forum, I didn't decide to register till recently.


Edited by Sardorim

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If you find using a sexual assault on Gilly as a means to get Sam laid "interesting," then I guess that's your opinion.

Was I watching a different show? When did Gilly get sexually assaulted? If you think that scene was only a means to get Sam laid then i dunno what else to say. You don't think this scene had anything to do with showing how much Sam has grown as a character? He stands up to his brothers, pulls a sword on them, gets his face kicked in literally, and still gets back up to challenge them again! That was the point of the scene. Sam has come a long way from the 'coward' in season 1 who immediately falls and yields to Rast in the training yard.

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Was I watching a different show? When did Gilly get sexually assaulted? If you think that scene was only a means to get Sam laid then i dunno what else to say. You don't think this scene had anything to do with showing how much Sam has grown as a character? He stands up to his brothers, pulls a sword on them, gets his face kicked in literally, and still gets back up to challenge them again! That was the point of the scene. Sam has come a long way from the 'coward' in season 1 who immediately falls and yields to Rast in the training yard.

If I could somehow convey a standing ovation i would. But don't go crazy over it, some people choose to nitpick the most ridiculous of things. I've given up the debate on this and decided to each their own.

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I don't see what the issue is with Tyene. Remember the character who was cut. Tyene clearly is taking elements of that character into her own. Furthermore Tyene set out to kill Bronn when they fought, she only changed her mind after when they were conveniently put into cells across from each other than Bronn proving interesting to her (His fighting skills are pretty great too, so he humbled her when he beat her). Thus the poisoning wasn't pointless. Furthermore, Tyene seducing and saving Bronn most likely means she plans to try and get him wrapped into a plot of hers later. As for "never leaving Dorne", well... They never said Bronn had to die. For all we know he is convinced to betray Jaime for a bigger prize by Tyene and then retires into Dorne.

Tyene seducing Bronn had a purpose too, it was meant to force the poison to work faster. Had Bronn not had his blood pumping the poison would have taken much longer to start affecting him.

This is a departure from the books, sure, but it's far more interesting for Bronn's character that's for sure.

I also don't see the point in all the fuss about Sansa. Clearly she's taking another minor characters role and she's desperate, furthermore it would be cheap if Theon turned so easily. Now she knows she's alone and has to take things into her own hands and I'm sure the pay-off will be glorious when the season ends.

My only issue with the episode was the almost rape scene which was followed by the victim immediately bedding her "savior" after tending to his wounds. It simply rubbed me off the wrong way.

-

Long term viewer of the forum, I didn't decide to register till recently.

Gilly wasn't sexing her "savior" she was playing Cerise's game of thrones. Watch carefully, she's not dumb she feels the looks she is getting. Aemon says to get south but she can't do it alone. She needs/wants Sam, so she uses what she can to get him to break his vows and take her away. It's the same thing happening to Tommen when he says he loves Marg who clearly doesn't love him. Are you following? It's not sexist, its real life!

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The problem with Sansa's arc is that she's just gone back to square one. It's after Ned died all over again. Essentially, 1) Sansa is a hostage, 2) Sansa's jailer is abusive, 3) Sansa's jailer shows her something unpleasant (Ned's head or flayed woman), 4) Sansa acts stupid (seriously, telling Theon about your only escape was dumb, not to mention calling Ramsey a bastard). Her character hasn't grown at all, it's actually reverted. That's the problem with shoehorning her into this story. Also, her being there makes no sense; LF is risking her life without cause and she is an incredibly valuable piece to risk. I don't know if her Vale stuff would be more interesting, but it must be better than what we have currently.

To copy from Deadlines? What Deadlines?'s post (#900):

Don't have Tyrion become the savior of KL only to have him fall from grace later.

Don't have Cat say "We'll kill them all" in season 1 only have her life fall apart and cut her throat later.

Don't have Robb kicking southron arse all over the river lands just to kill him off at a wedding.

Don't make Oberyn a charismatic, likable kick ass character just to crush his skull.

Don't capture Jamie Lannister just to cut him loose.

The entire series is filled with characters making progress, giving hope to the reader and then promptly stealing it back. The point I do agree with you on is LF's motives here, they either don't make sense or haven't been fully revealed.

Having Sansa be the victim here in place of Jeyne Poole/Fake Arya also takes away from Theon's development as well (by the way, Theon is actually forced to take part in the book version of the bedding, so both are raped). By making it Sansa, somebody Theon knows well and will have a natural impulse to help, instead of someone Theon barely knew means that if he helps her, it will matter less. All those Northern Lords cared about Ramsey hurting Arya Stark, but Theon cared about him hurting a stranger.

Remember that in the books Theon is threatened by Mance and the spearwives to help rescue Jeyne, it's not as if he came to the decision himself. The only reason it seems that way is because in the books we're inside theon's head and witnessing the machinations at work.

Dorne was laughable. That entire plot of Bronn getting poisoned was just an excuse to see the actress' breasts. Jaime and Myrcella was like some stupid teen romance film. How anyone can even imagine that this stuff is better than the book version baffles me.

The Faith Militant has no grey in it whatsoever. They're basically ISIS.

Tyrion and Jorah not being given full-body inspections is ridiculous. Jorah especially. He's going to be a pit fighter; a buyer would want to ensure that Jorah is in good health. Also the massive amount of coincidence necessary to get them to meet Dany was eyeroll worthy, but at least they're there.

these other issues can be explained by the limited time the show has. Unfortunately everything has to be dumbed down to squeeze over 2000 pages into ten hours. Sure they could do some things better but its not as easy as some here make it out to be.

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Was I watching a different show? When did Gilly get sexually assaulted? If you think that scene was only a means to get Sam laid then i dunno what else to say. You don't think this scene had anything to do with showing how much Sam has grown as a character? He stands up to his brothers, pulls a sword on them, gets his face kicked in literally, and still gets back up to challenge them again! That was the point of the scene. Sam has come a long way from the 'coward' in season 1 who immediately falls and yields to Rast in the training yard.

Gilly was sexually assaulted when the two NW guys were pawing her and one telling the other "Throw her down there", etc. I mean, how much assault is sexual assault in your mind? If your GF/wife/mom had that happen to her while walking home from work and somebody showed up to rescue her just in time, would you be arguing the semantics of whether or not she was sexually assaulted? Just because there wasn't actual penetrative sex doesn't mean she wasn't sexually assaulted. They meant to rape her. That was obvious.

Now to your second point, that this scene was a way to show Sam's character development. You have inadvertently and quite succinctly put your finger on the heart of the problem. The problem that I (and many, many, a growing number of show watchers) have is that rape is used as a character development device (often for OTHER PEOPLE than the victim of the rape) over and over again on this show. The reason so many people reacted so vociferously to Sansa's rape last episode, in addition to how of course it was horrible to watch and it didn't advance her OWN character development (as evidenced by this week where she is essentially back where she started in Season 1), was how we were focused on Theon's pain and suffering for most of it. This is an extremely common trope in films/tv/comics where a woman is put in peril to show a man's pain and to begin the man' journey of revenge/empowerment/whatever. And now again, the very next episode, we have an attempted rape where the woman is not only ready for sex immediately afterwards (and even Shae said in Season 2, "you should have known." Meaning Tyrion's fake wife. "A woman who's just escaped rape will not be interested in being in a man's bed an hour later.") but the whole scene was about SOMEONE ELSE'S character development. It's insulting, belittling to the trauma of rape and rape survivors, and probably the biggest crime of all for a fictional tv show, is lazy, LAZY writing.

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Gilly wasn't sexing her "savior" she was playing Cerise's game of thrones. Watch carefully, she's not dumb she feels the looks she is getting. Aemon says to get south but she can't do it alone. She needs/wants Sam, so she uses what she can to get him to break his vows and take her away. It's the same thing happening to Tommen when he says he loves Marg who clearly doesn't love him. Are you following? It's not sexist, its real life!

Sam already has been doing whatever she's wanted and places her safety above all else.

I also doubt Gilly even know what the game even is.

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