Why Shireen has to burn [Book Spoilers]

[King's Bane]

I

Stannis will burn Melisandre instead.

That's probably related to the shot of the devastated Selyse on the ground in the trailers.

He decides to completely forego the red priestess and her acolytes against all the wishes

of the red god.

He will not burn Shireen.

That would be an interesting twist.

Otherwise, I imagine Melisandre might choose to ignore his wishes and burn his daughter anyway, which might happen if he gets badly injured and becomes unable to stop her.

I don't think Selyse wants this outcome, either. She is not a kind mother, but I think that might be an expression of protectiveness. She (Selyse) comes across as someone who has only known the world as a harsh, brutal and throrougly unfair place, so she might believe that the only way to shield her daughter from a horrible fate is to keep her hidden and locked away from this world that will surely only cause her harm. She might believe that she is doing her daughter a favor by making sure she doesn't hope for good things in life, because she will probably not get any. ("You don't know what people will do. All your books, and you still don't know.")

This branch of the Barathion family are known for their faith in telling "harsh truths", after all.

So if any of that is true, it makes good sense that she wouldn't want her daughter to come with them to the North. As devout a follower as she is, she might not be so prepared to let Melisandre sacrifice her only daughter. However, Selyne remains terribly submissive to her husband and the red priestess both. Maybe she doesn't think her own wishes matter, so she takes great care not to express herself too directly. (It might seem curious that she does not know how protective Stannis actually is of Shireen, but this could be explained by the fact that he barely even speaks to his wife.)

She did tried to prevent them from bringing her along by making arguments about how unfit she thinks her daughter to be for this kind of journey. Several times, if memory serves.

So maybe that scene in the snow is just about a mother's reaction as she's about to lose her only child?

[Mithras]

As I recall the purpose behind burning someone with king's blood is to wake a dragon from stone. Stannis could certainly use a dragon but the question he would have to answer is what would he want more, Shireen or a dragon? The Stannis from the book and the show (with the scene from episode 5) would choose Shireen without thought or hesitation. He is a skilled commander and has an army so victory in the field is well within reach. He would like a dragon to be sure but he needs an heir. He also seems genuinely fond of her.

But Mel didnot mention a dragon at all. She just said that Stannis has to burn Shireen.

[SeanF]

Where human sacrifice is practised, the sacrifice of someone you love is considered especially potent. In times of hardship, the inhabitants of Northern Syria/ South Eastern Turkey would bury newborn children alive in clay pots; the Phoenicians and Carthaginians would give their children to the priests to be burned alive.

I imagine that's why Melisandre would consider the sacrifice of Shireen to be so valuable. The Red God will look with special favour on Stannis, if he sacrifices the daughter and heir that he loves.

[Minuteman]

But Mel didnot mention a dragon at all. She just said that Stannis has to burn Shireen.

I thought she may have mentioned it in an episode from the previous season. I get the book and show confused at times. But the point is that it doesn't make much sense to burn Shireen now as there is no conceivable way for a dragon to come to Stannis now because of it. Perhaps at Dragonstone with all of the dragon statuary but not outside Winterfell. If he needs to turn the weather then any sacrifice should do it (in the book they burn the four men who turned cannibal). Shireen's life is clearly in danger on the show as Mel asked Stannis outright to sacrifice her. I'm just saying that it doesn't make any sense. Book Stannis saw a vision of himself wearing a crown that was consuming him in flame and Mel saw Stannis sitting the IT. I suspect that what may happen is that Stannis becomes (undisputed) king when Tommen and Myrcella die (sitting the IT is simply metaphor to this event) but that he offers himself as sacrifice in lieu of Shireen when he sees a king's blood sacrifice as necessary to save the "realms of men" (perhaps after Mel and he both realize that he is not in fact AAR). Stannis is rigid in his thinking and would consider the life of his only heir to be more valuable than his own as otherwise his dynasty becomes extinct. It is noble, yes, but more importantly it is rigidly, coldly rational which is really what defines Stannis.

[Philpenn]

How about the dragon inside the Wall?

[dndmn422]

Where human sacrifice is practised, the sacrifice of someone you love is considered especially potent. In times of hardship, the inhabitants of Northern Syria/ South Eastern Turkey would bury newborn children alive in clay pots; the Phoenicians and Carthaginians would give their children to the priests to be burned alive.

I imagine that's why Melisandre would consider the sacrifice of Shireen to be so valuable. The Red God will look with special favour on Stannis, if he sacrifices the daughter and heir that he loves.

Agreed and I would be fine with a sacrifice so long as it stays ambiguous- I don't want shireen to be burned and the very next scene is a cut to dragonstone where a stone dragon awakens; or she's burned and the sky suddenly clears like a spring day. I would prefer it to be like the leeches and gendry- the usurpers all died but it wasn't necessarily because of the red god's power, it could have been just due to circumstantial events.

I don't think even GRRM would go as far as literally connecting a sacrifice of shireen to some clear benefit or magical event. Even if shireen is burned in the books with the intention of say, reviving Jon, it should (hopefully) be left ambiguous as to whether it was actually magic that saved him or was he just not really mortally wounded.

That being said I agree with others that in the show i don't believe a shireen sacrifice will have Stannis' blessing. If it happens it probably means he's dead and it's Mel/Selyse doing it.

[Masha]

I don't know about Selyse. I have this weird feeling that the show attempted to show her as unloving mother who far more into religion than love for her child, but it would turn out that she is the one who would try to protect her daughter and in her weird/cold way she actually loves her and kept trying to keep her away from harm, and the reason she didn't want her to come was because she was suspicious about Mel wanting to burn her. And her lying distraught in the snow is because Shireen is about to be burned.

Of course, this season I kept overestimating quality of D&D writing, and everything is as obvious as It seems. Selyse is the fervent supporter of Mel, and would burn her daughter without blinking if Stannis and Mel decided on it.

[hallam]

I will also add that speculation of Shireen burning is not just a show thing. There has been talk for years now that Mel is going to burn her in the books as well. I think in both show and books Stannis has made it perfectly clear he's against it. If it happens it's all Mel and Selyse.

Exactly, complaining about the show getting it wrong is beside the point. It is obvious that book Stannis is about to freeze to death unless he does something fast. Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't they building pyres to burn something on?

Whether it is Mel and Stannis or Mel and Selyse, I have a feeling that Stannis refuses or Shireen is rescued and Stannis dies as a result.

Where human sacrifice is practised, the sacrifice of someone you love is considered especially potent. In times of hardship, the inhabitants of Northern Syria/ South Eastern Turkey would bury newborn children alive in clay pots; the Phoenicians and Carthaginians would give their children to the priests to be burned alive.

I imagine that's why Melisandre would consider the sacrifice of Shireen to be so valuable. The Red God will look with special favour on Stannis, if he sacrifices the daughter and heir that he loves.

The Carthaginians used to foster children with their real children so they could give them up to be sacrificed. This was blamed for the setbacks in the final punic war and so when the Roman soldiers were marching on the city to invest it for a siege, the worthies were busy slaughtering their (real) children in the temple. One of the rules was that the sacrifices had to be willing so the parents would play with them to make them laugh and smile. When they moved on to goats instead they would ask the goat if they wanted to be sacrificed and then drop some water on their head causing them to nod.

The Carthaginian affair did not go down well with the Romans at all and is quite likely the origin of the very strong prohibition on human sacrifice they practiced from that point on. That in turn was likely one of the factors which enabled them to set up the empire. As Cortez found in South America, the tribes who were being raided to provide sacrifices to the Aztec Gods were quit happy to form alliances against their enemies with the folk who didn't do the sacrifice thing at all.

The sacrifice of the firstborn seems to have been a thing with the pre-Judaic cultures. This is then condemned in the biblical story of Issac and Abraham. Like most of the parables, it uses cue names. Issac means 'he who laughs', i.e. is willing to be sacrificed. Abraham means 'father of a multitude'. And of course it is the death of the first born that causes the Pharaoh to finally let the Israelites 'leave' (this being nonsensical in historic terms as Egypt controlled Palestine at the time).

[stannisismyking]

I

That would be an interesting twist.

Otherwise, I imagine Melisandre might choose to ignore his wishes and burn his daughter anyway, which might happen if he gets badly injured and becomes unable to stop her.

I don't think Selyse wants this outcome, either. She is not a kind mother, but I think that might be an expression of protectiveness. She (Selyse) comes across as someone who has only known the world as a harsh, brutal and throrougly unfair place, so she might believe that the only way to shield her daughter from a horrible fate is to keep her hidden and locked away from this world that will surely only cause her harm. She might believe that she is doing her daughter a favor by making sure she doesn't hope for good things in life, because she will probably not get any. ("You don't know what people will do. All your books, and you still don't know.")

This branch of the Barathion family are known for their faith in telling "harsh truths", after all.

So if any of that is true, it makes good sense that she wouldn't want her daughter to come with them to the North. As devout a follower as she is, she might not be so prepared to let Melisandre sacrifice her only daughter. However, Selyne remains terribly submissive to her husband and the red priestess both. Maybe she doesn't think her own wishes matter, so she takes great care not to express herself too directly. (It might seem curious that she does not know how protective Stannis actually is of Shireen, but this could be explained by the fact that he barely even speaks to his wife.)

She did tried to prevent them from bringing her along by making arguments about how unfit she thinks her daughter to be for this kind of journey. Several times, if memory serves.

So maybe that scene in the snow is just about a mother's reaction as she's about to lose her only child?

Aww the bit in bold makes me sad because that's what I think about show!Selyse too. I'm quite disappointed with the way she's written when it comes to Shireen, but at the same time I think Tara is very good and brings a lot of book!Selyse's haughtiness to the table. I think she's very bitter and sees herself as a failure for not giving him a son, which is the number one thing expected from a noblewoman in this world . It would actually been nice if the anecdote about Robert defiling their marriage bed was included so it put more of the blame on him (even if it's just wishful thinking on her book counterpart's part) rather than having her draw all the blame back on herself for not producing a living son.

[Stonehearted Snake]

Gods, what if Stannis dies, they burn Shireen, and it doesn't work and both are dead. Then what is next for Team Dragonstone?

In the books Stannis is really firm with his troops that if he dies then they must fight on for Shireen. So what if she is gone too?

[SeanF]

Exactly, complaining about the show getting it wrong is beside the point. It is obvious that book Stannis is about to freeze to death unless he does something fast. Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't they building pyres to burn something on?

Whether it is Mel and Stannis or Mel and Selyse, I have a feeling that Stannis refuses or Shireen is rescued and Stannis dies as a result.

The Carthaginians used to foster children with their real children so they could give them up to be sacrificed. This was blamed for the setbacks in the final punic war and so when the Roman soldiers were marching on the city to invest it for a siege, the worthies were busy slaughtering their (real) children in the temple. One of the rules was that the sacrifices had to be willing so the parents would play with them to make them laugh

and smile. When they moved on to goats instead they would ask the goat if they wanted to be sacrificed and then drop some water on their head causing them to nod.

The Carthaginian affair did not go down well with the Romans at all and is quite likely the origin of the very strong prohibition on human sacrifice they practiced from that point on. That in turn was likely one of the factors which enabled them to set up the empire. As Cortez found in South America, the tribes who were being raided to provide sacrifices to the Aztec Gods were quit happy to form alliances against their enemies with the folk who didn't do the sacrifice thing at all.

The sacrifice of the firstborn seems to have been a thing with the pre-Judaic cultures. This is then condemned in the biblical story of Issac and Abraham. Like most of the parables, it uses cue names. Issac means 'he who laughs', i.e. is willing to be sacrificed. Abraham means 'father of a multitude'. And of course it is the death of the first born that causes the Pharaoh to finally let the Israelites 'leave' (this being nonsensical in historic terms as Egypt controlled Palestine at the time).

Jepthah's daughter was another who was willing to be sacrificed, so that her father could keep his oath.

IMO, Jephthah was a fool to swear that oath, and even more of a fool to keep it.

[Fisch]

I said some of this in the Ep Discussion thread, but:

Shireen has been expanded into a very likeable character, and if she were to be sacrificed, that would make for a tragic, and quite interesting, storyline unique to the show. IMO, that story, while decent so far, is not worth the screentime that it has claimed from more important arcs concerning primary characters, especially in Jon's case.

Whether it remains a decent plot will be contingent on what role Stannis plays. ShowStannis has been pushed further from his book counterpart than other characters, and the choices to have him fully culpable in Renly's murder instead of being willfully ignorant (if even that), and to be so much more willing to kill his bastard nephew, were pretty iffy. But if they push him to the point where he voluntarily kills his own daughter, then IMO that is a change on par with those that have prompted GRRM to ask that characters' names be changed in the past.

[Guess who's back]

Heard that Shireen will be burned to bring Jon Snow back.

[Lord Damian]

This is the same show that took Sansa Stark to be wed to Ramsay and raped on the wedding night and every night after. Burning a little girl could be heard by sounds but not shown directly as in Sansa's case. Anything is possible with D&D and logic has nothing to do with it. Shock value on the other hand, has everything to do with it.

[Guess who's back]

This is the same show that took Sansa Stark to be wed to Ramsay and raped on the wedding night and every night after. Burning a little girl could be heard by sounds but not shown directly as in Sansa's case. Anything is possible with D&D and logic has nothing to do with it. Shock value on the other hand, has everything to do with it.

But it will be funny that an innocent girl burning will be less controversial than Sansa rape. Gotta love feminism.

[yan]

Burning Selyse or Mel has not point.


In order for Rhllor to help Stannis, royal blood must be used.

I heard that Yara greyjoy is to appear this season... Wasnt her father a king ?

[Lord Damian]

But it will be funny that an innocent girl burning will be less controversial than Sansa rape. Gotta love feminism.

I will not be surprised if they do that to her.

[chris999]

Stannis will burn Melisandre instead.

That's probably related to the shot of the devastated Selyse on the ground in the trailers.

He decides to completely forego the red priestess and her acolytes against all the wishes

of the red god.

He will not burn Shireen.

Nah.

Mel is an important character. I think more important than most realize. She will certainly play a role in the coming battle against the others.

She hasnt made it through 5 books surrounded by all of that mystery just to be killed off on a whim.

[GravyFace]

Heard that Shireen will be burned to bring Jon Snow back.

I sincerely hope that burning a little girl is not needed to bring Jon back. It may take some other form of magic.

[mafro987daboss]

Nah.

Mel is an important character. I think more important than most realize. She will certainly play a role in the coming battle against the others.

She hasnt made it through 5 books surrounded by all of that mystery just to be killed off on a whim.

Exactly. Even the show has made a point of leaving ambiguous relationships between Mel and Jon/Arya open-ended. Killing her now would make no sense. A more likely scenario would be her leaving back to Castle Black while Selyse attempts to burn her daughter.