[Book Spoilers] Rant and Rave without Repercussion II

[Le Cygne]

Using a rape attempt to create a situation where Sam & Gilly get together is just so stupid, when in story, it was grief, comfort, their common humanity and yes, rum, that all had their parts to play. But subtly and nuance aren't D$D's style.

It's especially horrible for both of these female characters, because they've had their share of this sort of thing, it was time for them to move on and face new challenges. It's an additional burden they keep placing on them that shows such a lack of not only sensitivity but understanding of their journeys, and what makes a good story.

[DreamSongs]

This was actually the most disjointed episode I can remember seeing. I suppose that part of that is the transition from book material to creative material.

There were individual scenes that I thought were done well such as Fat Pink Mast and Cersei's meeting with the High Septon, but I think the show made some huge changes that affect the plot and result in scenes I can't stand:

1) Aging up Tommen TOO much. I agree with another poster that Tommen's scene came off as Joffrey 2.0

2) The entire Myrcella/Jaime scene. Truthfully, this has to in the top 10 worst scenes in the series thus far. Hopefully, Doran will pack Jaime and Bronn back to Westeros and we never hear from Dorne or Myrcella in the show again. I'd rather have Euron and Victarian Greyjoy than that crap.

3) Cersei/Jaime and Tommen. I know that many complain about Cersei's character being whitewashed, but I am fed up with seeing show Cersei's character influenced by book Jaime and vice versa.

4) Please don't start me on the Sansa/Theon/Ramsay thing.

I confess this episode kind of drove me into nerdrage.

[Kyoshi]

Regarding CB, really didn't like the rape threat. I mean, come on, enough already. Ghost not going with Jon was incomprehensible to me. And then have him magically appear, save the day, and vanish.

In case you didn't know, Ghost is a magician.

The scene where Dany roasts the random dude was the turning point for me. It made no sense. The dragons are like ghost, magicians.

[Hayyoth]

So I am joining this party a little late because I was away for the weekend and I see this is already onto the second thread. Not surprising but what is surprising is how many people are saying they liked this episode. Just look at the ratings thread here. This episode was soooooo boooorrrrriiiiinnnnggggg! Maester Aemon died. That was sad but he didn't say anything revealing for plot purposes. We already knew he was a Targ. Sansa/Ramsay/Theon - sigh. That whole sequence was a repeat of Sansa in season one when after Ned is killed Joff takes her to see his head and she sasses him and says maybe Robb will give her Joff's head. So they have just put her back to season one scenes. Also, how did Ramsay know that this woman is a North sympathizer? Reek didn't know who it was that was helping Sansa.

I was furious that they tried to use rape again as a plot device with Gilly. It was cool to see Ghost but I was wondering why he wouldn't be with Jon.

The sand snake scene was dumb. Are they trying to build up some kind of romance between Bronn and Tyene? Is that what they will use to explain why Tyene would try to poison Bronn and then give him the antidote a little later (assuming she did in fact give him an antidote)? Why wasn't Ellaria in the cell with the other girls? Why wasn't Jaime in a cell? What was the point of his scene with Myrcella? There was no purpose to any of this.

If the Sparrows are so into arresting anyone who has sinned against the gods then why is LF, a known brothel owner, even able to walk around King's Landing at all? Also, Olenna is completely ineffectual. Everyone knows about the incest and she doesn't have anything to use against Cersei herself? She has to wait for LF to present her with his gift of Lancel? And didn't Lancel tell the High Sparrow about Cersei already?

The Jorah/Tyrion scenes were just awful! Pitiful! What was with Tyrion hitting that slaver like that? They all laugh and don't do anything? Jorah's fight was not good either. I can't believe people thought that was a good fight scene. He walked out there and sucker punched all the other fighters that were left. That is not good fighting. Why was Tyrion the only one chained up and why would some random guy release him? What happened to Tyrion's accent? He is just phoning it in this season. There was no reason for Dany to be there either. It was a lame way of bringing them together. And Dany and Daario are a snoozefest to watch.

1) I've wondered that too, how did Ramsey know about the old woman? He's not averse to randomly flaying old people I guess but he seemed totally up to speed with the fact she'd told Sansa to light the candle. It's so batshit lazy writing wise that I suspect there was a scene cut out which showed Theek talking to her, but they needed more screen time for the Dorne bewb scene...priorities.

2) It was a set up to explain why Sam will leave Castle Black. He will depart, Jon will return with his last remaining friend gone, the other one will be deaded next episode. The humanity as he gets knifed by the kid. WHO COULD POSSIBLY SEE THAT COMING???

3) One word bewbs. The entire Dorne storyline has been a lead up to that prison bewb shot, I'm convinced of it.

4) I could see some context here, the HS holding back until he gets what he wants from Carol, but as usual the show is fucking terrible at exposition. I suspect scenes have been cut out which would make this plotline make sense to the viewer, but D&D as always face the qaundry all HBO showrunners must face, make space for a coherent plot or more bewbs??

5) Yeah the whole "My Queen we must visit the smaller fighting pits where a half dozen spectators will marvel at the awesome levels of blood letting. What's that my Queen? You dislike the blood and gore? But think on those half dozen spectators who're here, you wouldn't want to offend them by leaving or anything. Oh and btw this whole set up is not because we've run out of money filming stupid shit in Spain or anything....oh no...." scene in the children's sand pit was a l'il bit underwhelming.

[DreamSongs]

Sorry...double post.

[Cas Stark]

I'm not going to revisit the whole Winterfell from a plot perspective.

But, part of the "good" that was supposed to be coming from that change was these actors interacting.

However, it appears to me that the only actor who is getting a showcase is Iwan, and that's fine, he's excellent.

However, Alfie has done almost nothing, and the VERY interesting convos we got between Theon and Roose, nowhere to be found.

Alfie and Sansa, so far, almost nothing and Sansa out of the blue asking for help was just stupid, too short to have an effect and so a lost opportunity. There might have been some interesting Sansa/Roose stuff they could have done, but they didn't.

A lot of people I know liked the dinner scene, but other than Ramsay showcasing his crazy, I didn't see anything there and was so annoyed by Sophie's take on that...it didn't work for me.

And...I'm not sure how much more time they can devote to this arc since they have Hardome, Jon getting stabbed, the pits and the walk of shame as well as something for Arya.

[Rena Melville]

At this point i'm wondering why does this show even exist. I mean, it has nothing to tell. Why D&D are doing this? What is the purpose of all of this? If the characters doesn't matter, if the plot doesn't matter, if the world doesn't matter... Why are they doing an adaptation? I just don't get it. Would've been easier if they came up with their own story, since it seems like they were never interested by asoiaf anyway.

[kissdbyfire]

Who else could it be? It has to be Lancel. Granted, I had assumed that Lancel had already confessed his sins to the HS when we saw him in the opener....so it's odd that somehow LF has arranged that Lancel's confession occur now..unless he confessed to some other septon? and LF somehow?? arranged for this to come to the HS notice? which is somewhat hamfisted.

But, nobody else makes any sense and there is no other handsome boy who knows anything about Cersei's crimes except for Lancel. So, it's a plot hole but by GOT season 5 standards, n ot even a large one, LOL.

I know, right? That's why I thought I was missing something, because Lancel did in fact tell Cersei that he'd confessed. What I can't recall is whether he mentioned the HS or if he just says he's confessed.

I'm going to watch that scene again.

[Le Cygne]

Well you saw their genius quote on it, right?

Benioff: Creatively it made sense to us, because we wanted it to happen.

And this extends to other things, as we have been discussing, directing, editing, music. They are not adapting and collaborating. And we saw what happened when an actor pushed back, they publicly mocked him.

[Winter's Knight]

Has there been an "Inside Game of Thrones" for this episode?

[kissdbyfire]

And this extends to other things, as we have been discussing, directing, editing, music. They are not adapting and collaborating. And we saw what happened when an actor pushed back, they publicly mocked him.

This. I must confess I've been feeling much less inclined to give show runners the benefit of the doubt because I simply can't get past the fact that they're coming across as not very nice people. The thing with Ian McElhinney, and the way Aimee Richardson was replaced are good examples. And speaking of Aimee Richardson, why was she replaced again?

[Cas Stark]

Has there been an "Inside Game of Thrones" for this episode?

Yeah, they talk about Egg mostly, at least that is all that stayed in my mind...which I thought it was kind of odd that they gave that particular line so much play...when it is absolutely completely w/out meaning unless you read the books.

And Danny....not quite yet ready to be totally ruthless but getting there, something along those lines.

[Elba the Intoner]

They regressed her to season1, but now she's a woman, so she's being raped. In the books, becoming a woman is about making her own choices, in her own way, resisting the choices others are making for her. On the show, becoming a woman is about her vagina.

And yeah, using rape as a plot device with Gilly is so horrible, too.

I know, it was horrible. I thought I couldn't feel any worse than last week but seeing her on the bed crying at the beginning of her scene was crushing! How is this supposed to be empowering her?

I agree with all you've said. I really don't like the Winterfell plot, and I can't foresee any scenario that would make me change my mind, regardless of how they move forward with it, I can't see it working for me. I really disliked the scene where Sansa is begging Theon for help. I feel like they're going to take Sansa to the worst place possible, and then 'boom', out of the blue, MAJOR REACTION/empowerment/whatever, in a really unrealistic turn of events.

But I'm afraid this will be a problem with many arcs and plots, where they may take characters to one (unrealistic) extreme just to magically provide a 'solution'. Like with Dany going all mad queen and burning that guy (I hated that scene!), just to put her in the worst possible situation, making her ready to welcome St. Tyrion with open arms.

Regarding CB, really didn't like the rape threat. I mean, come on, enough already. Ghost not going with Jon was incomprehensible to me. And then have him magically appear, save the day, and vanish.

I thought I hadn't understood the scene with Olenna and Littlefinger, since I couldn't for the life of me think of who he meant. But if he was talking about Lancel, then it's just more of the same casual inconsistency we've been getting all season.

Yeah, looking at some of the other threads it seems there is a lot of confusion over who LF was referring to. I don't blame anyone for being confused because as we've all been saying, this is so inconsistent but this is what we have now.

1) I've wondered that too, how did Ramsey know about the old woman? He's not averse to randomly flaying old people I guess but he seemed totally up to speed with the fact she'd told Sansa to light the candle. It's so batshit lazy writing wise that I suspect there was a scene cut out which showed Theek talking to her, but they needed more screen time for the Dorne bewb scene...priorities.

2) It was a set up to explain why Sam will leave Castle Black. He will depart, Jon will return with his last remaining friend gone, the other one will be deaded next episode. The humanity as he gets knifed by the kid. WHO COULD POSSIBLY SEE THAT COMING???

3) One word bewbs. The entire Dorne storyline has been a lead up to that prison bewb shot, I'm convinced of it.

4) I could see some context here, the HS holding back until he gets what he wants from Carol, but as usual the show is fucking terrible at exposition. I suspect scenes have been cut out which would make this plotline make sense to the viewer, but D&D as always face the qaundry all HBO showrunners must face, make space for a coherent plot or more bewbs??

5) Yeah the whole "My Queen we must visit the smaller fighting pits where a half dozen spectators will marvel at the awesome levels of blood letting. What's that my Queen? You dislike the blood and gore? But think on those half dozen spectators who're here, you wouldn't want to offend them by leaving or anything. Oh and btw this whole set up is not because we've run out of money filming stupid shit in Spain or anything....oh no...." scene in the children's sand pit was a l'il bit underwhelming.

Agree on all points. Regarding number 4, that's what I was wondering too. The only way this makes sense is if the High Sparrow was holding back on using his knowledge about Cersei to arrest her until after he used her for his own purposes. Number 5 was funny :-)

I know, right? That's why I thought I was missing something, because Lancel did in fact tell Cersei that he'd confessed. What I can't recall is whether he mentioned the HS or if he just says he's confessed.

I'm going to watch that scene again.

Good luck trying to make sense out of that mess.

[kissdbyfire]

Has there been an "Inside Game of Thrones" for this episode?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qQX30V-ZVCE

[Lord Damian]

Whenever this show ends and the contracts have been fulfilled, it will be interesting to see and hear the actors and actresses comments about the storyline and their characters in regards to what they liked, did not like and the surprissing turns they had. This and relation to their book counterparts. Sophie's will be the most interesting.

[protar]

Whenever this show ends and the contracts have been fulfilled, it will be interesting to see and hear the actors and actresses comments about the storyline and their characters in regards to what they liked, did not like and the surprissing turns they had. This and relation to their book counterparts. Sophie's will be the most interesting.

I think actors have already started to make comments. Ian McElhinney (Barristan) has expressed open disappointment in the show, IIRC Finn Jones (Loras) has made some comments that hint at that, and Sophie Turner was very shocked to see that she wouldn't be quite as empowered this season as she was hoping.

[The Northern Scholar]

Yeah, they talk about Egg mostly, at least that is all that stayed in my mind...which I thought it was kind of odd that they gave that particular line so much play...when it is absolutely completely w/out meaning unless you read the books.

And Danny....not quite yet ready to be totally ruthless but getting there, something along those lines.

Yeah, my wife hasn't read the books and she was really confused by that line. As well as almost everything happening in Dorne. Go figure. "It makes no sense" were the exact words she used.

[Cas Stark]

Yeah, my wife hasn't read the books and she was really confused by that line. As well as almost everything happening in Dorne. Go figure. "It makes no sense" were the exact words she used.

The double Ds are random. THEY liked the bit about Aemon and Egg, and hey, so did I, and I have seen the references to Egg that they've thrown in there....but for all the BS about how it's an A D A P T A T I O N and much must be sacrificed because it's T E L E V I S I ON....there is no reason to have given such prominence to that line. It means nothing in the context of the future story and w/out more background it has little meaning to the viewer. So, it was nice, but kind of a waste.

However, it is in there because they liked it, and for no other reason, no reasons of plot, or adaptation or characterization, or drama or pacing, but because they liked it, they put it in the show.

The same reason Stoneheart was out. They didn't like her. Nothing else going on there.

[Lord Damian]

This. I must confess I've been feeling much less inclined to give show runners the benefit of the doubt because I simply can't get past the fact that they're coming across as not very nice people. The thing with Ian McElhinney, and the way Aimee Richardson was replaced are good examples. And speaking of Aimee Richardson, why was she replaced again?

Nell Tiger Free has a prettier face is the reason I gathered but they cannot say it that bluntly if that is in fact the case.

[Winter's Knight]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qQX30V-ZVCE

Did.. umm did he call Loras an evil doer in the end? Like he does realize that the HS iz equating non-narital sex with evil?

Like Cersei is being arrested for "adultery and incestuoz adultery"-but Lancel can only testify to the adultery right? Because so far no one's mentioned regicide.

And since she slept with Lancel years after her last child was born, she can't even be tried for treason.