[Spoilers] Hizdahr

[Nictarion]

I never said he was nihilistic I said he was realistic and that idealists think realist are nihilists.

Most people who try and change the world for the better, with force, change it for the worse. It just happens. If GRRM believes that is the right way, it's because he has spent too long n the USA, where the idea that invading a country for their oil is fine, so long as you leave them with a McDonalds.

Are you done?

[Sopranos With Swords]

I never said he was nihilistic I said he was realistic and that idealists think realist are nihilists.

Most people who try and change the world for the better, with force, change it for the worse. It just happens. If GRRM believes that is the right way, it's because he has spent too long n the USA, where the idea that invading a country for their oil is fine, so long as you leave them with a McDonalds.

This isn't the same argument though, because many people have moral issue with what you are referring to now because they question the motives. The point is many people agree the circumstances and motivations for WW2 justified the violence - they based this opinion on their knowledge of facts, rather than as you say being swayed by "local propaganda".

Back to the book, we're in Dany's POV. We know she didn't invade for resources or personal gain rather her duty as mhysa and a moral stand against slavery. Most people would argue slavery isn't a matter of opinion or taste - like the west imposing capitalism, as you refer to - but rather, it's inherently wrong - like genocide in the second world war. I don't think you can compare these.

[ummester]

This isn't the same argument though, because many people have moral issue with what you are referring to now because they question the motives. The point is many people agree the circumstances and motivations for WW2 justified the violence - they based this opinion on their knowledge of facts, rather than as you say being swayed by "local propaganda".

Back to the book, we're in Dany's POV. We know she didn't invade for resources or personal gain rather her duty as mhysa and a moral stand against slavery. Most people would argue slavery isn't a matter of opinion or taste - like the west imposing capitalism, as you refer to - but rather, it's inherently wrong - like genocide in the second world war. I don't think you can compare these.

I'm not saying that trying to rid Slaver's Bay of slaver is a bad idea - what is a bad idea is Dany going in on her high horse, with a self righteous attitude that fails to take a reasonable or measured approach to anything.

Hizdhar explained to her that his father was an abolitionist and, knowing full well that she has mistakenly crucified someone who was effectively on her side, she starts randomly feeding the master class to her dragons. How did she know the random she fed to them wasn't also an abolitionist? She didn't, because she is impatient, immature and headstrong.

There is a very high chance that the Harpy's (in show) aren't killing people to try and bring slavery back and are just a natural response to Dany's unpredictable and frightening takeover of the city. Hizdhar was frightened of her, he didn't respect her - he only feared her. If she didn't own and couldn't ride dragons, no one would look up to her at all.

Has she improved anything in Mereen?

[ummester]

The SOH are almost exactly what you claim they're not - faceless terrorists. They are fighting against an authority that has been accepted by the majority of the people in order to attempt to re-establish slavery.

The motives of the Harpy, in show, have never been clarified.

The Ghiscari Empire is older than the Valyrian by far. They have more history and culture than the Valyrian's ever amassed and they did it without dragons. Dany is not taking any of that into account.

[nastydream]

The Ghiscari Empire is older than the Valyrian by far. They have more history and culture than the Valyrian's ever amassed and they did it without dragons. Dany is not taking any of that into account.

sure,let's call it culture,lol

[Nictarion]

I'm not saying that trying to rid Slaver's Bay of slaver is a bad idea - what is a bad idea is Dany going in on her high horse, with a self righteous attitude that fails to take a reasonable or measured approach to anything.

Hizdhar explained to her that his father was an abolitionist and, knowing full well that she has mistakenly crucified someone who was effectively on her side, she starts randomly feeding the master class to her dragons. How did she know the random she fed to them wasn't also an abolitionist? She didn't, because she is impatient, immature and headstrong.

There is a very high chance that the Harpy's (in show) aren't killing people to try and bring slavery back and are just a natural response to Dany's unpredictable and frightening takeover of the city. Hizdhar was frightened of her, he didn't respect her - he only feared her. If she didn't own and couldn't ride dragons, no one would look up to her at all.

Has she improved anything in Mereen?

Completely wrong. Hizdahr claimed his father was against crucifying the children, not that he was an abolitionist. He told Dany his father helped build the Great Pyramid, which Missandei said cost thousands of slaves their lives.

There are no abolitionist among the ruling class of Meereen in the books or the show. Just apparently in your head.

Yes, she improved things in Meereen for those who didn't want to be slaves, or have their children thrown to bears to entertain a bunch of vile slavers.

[ummester]

Are you done?

I didn't bring actual wars into a discussion about a fantasy series - someone else did in defense of GRRM because he used it to try and justify something about his series. All of these arguments can cut both ways. No war, even WW2, has ever had a clear right and wrong side and anyone who thinks they have is a fool.

[Nictarion]

I didn't bring actual wars into a discussion about a fantasy series - someone else did in defense of GRRM because he used it to try and justify something about his series. All of these arguments can cut both ways. No war, even WW2, has ever had a clear right and wrong side and anyone who thinks they have is a fool.

Go watch some footage from Auschwitz and say that.

[ummester]

sure,let's call it culture,lol

Well what else is it? It's civilization, with a culture - like Egypt, or Rome - and in the ASoIaF saga it is the oldest complex civilization, inhabited by the original people, that is still standing - though not if Dany has her way after what she said in E509 :)

[Borodin]

Go watch some footage from Auschwitz and say that.

Dresden.

[ummester]

Dresden.

Hiroshima?

It's pointless - it's all horrid - it's not a winnable thing, shouldn't even be a competition.

But that's the point - Dany trying to solve slavery with violence was an ill conceived move, that was bound to blow up in her face.

She is a clever character because she seems devised to appeal to that gung ho, solve the worlds problems with righteous fire attitude - and hopefully GRRM is using her to let his fans know just how flawed that attitude is, not paint her as a truly heroic figure.

[Philpenn]

He told Dany his father helped build the Great Pyramid, which Missandei said cost thousands of slaves their lives.

Did he say helped build, or helped restore?

[Nictarion]

Did he say helped build, or helped restore?

You're right, he said restoration. He also says his family is one of the oldest and proudest families in Meereen. Which = most powerful slavers.

At no point does he say his father was against slavery, so my point stands.

[ummester]

You're right, he said restoration. He also says his family is one of the oldest and proudest families in Meereen. Which = most powerful slavers.

At no point does he say his father was against slavery, so my point stands.

Fair enough, I admit you are right on that point.

In argument though, Dany crucified those people supposedly as revenge for the crucified children, so she still didn't even get her revenge right, by crucifying at least one who was not responsible for it.

[Philpenn]

I axed because if he had said built, I was going to question how old his dad was.

[Estelindis]

She can't restore order - that is another thing that sickens her when she looks at the fighting. She is slowly realising she cannot make the world the way she wants it, even with dragons. The only question that remains is does she salvage herself or does she go all fire and blood? My money is on the later, but I could be wrong.

Of course Hizdhar knew more about what was right for Mereen than either Dany or Tyrion possibly could - he was born and raised there, it was his city. He was right when he called Dany and Tyrion out on thinking that they know is best for other people, they don't, they don't even know wht is best for themselves.

I tend to agree. I hate the concept of the fighting pits, but it can't be denied that they did bring Meereen together. Just look at the massive crowd hyped and excited, leaping to their feet and cheering as one. Whether Dany likes it or not, Meereen wants the fighting pits. She's uncomfortably confronted with a culture she can't change, neither just by wishing it so or by using the might of her dragons and soldiers. She can crucify nobles, imprison and burn them, but it won't force the culture to be different.

That doesn't mean that culture can't change at all, but I think it would have been more sensible to try to change it slowly. For instance, she could have reopened the fighting pits with the condition that fights wouldn't be to the death but to yielding, like in Westerosi melées. The condition that only free men would fight was in Hizdahr's proposal from the start, not something she needed to bring to him in his prison cell. She could've tried to go for an actual further compromise instead.

The thing is, Dany doesn't want slow change. She wants change now. She sees Meereen as an experience to quickly hone her rulership abilities so that she can leave the city behind and go to Westeros with a sense of positive accomplishment. But the people of Meereen should have more than that. They need a leader who will actually give herself or himself fully to the city's improvement, who wants to serve Meereen as an end in itself rather than just a stepping stone on the way to somewhere else.

I think that if Dany and Hizdahr had made a genuine partnership, they could have done that together. He already showed himself as someone willing to compromise. He made himself kneel before the person who had his father crucified, even accepted marrying her. But Dany never seemed to be able to look past him as an enemy (probably because she can't forget that he used to own slaves). You can see that from the pleasure she takes at the way Daario brandishes his knife at Hizdahr's neck - which, frankly, was a ludicrous thing to do in front of tens of thousands of people of Meereen, when the whole point of Hizdahr marrying Dany is that it's supposed to bring about peace.

Of course, I say all this based on Dany and Hizdahr as depicted on the show. Dany has a few differences, but Hizdahr is so very different that he's almost totally another character. In general, when I discuss the show, I'm discussing the show, not the books.

I have to disagree here. Yes, Dany is an outside force, a conqueror that no one asked for. But she is attempting to abolish slavery, a revolutionary act that runs contrary to years of slave culture within Meereen and as such has sparked the violent conflict so often seen in times of revolution.

Her own beliefs - in particular that slavery is wrong and should be abolished - seem to be very in line with the beliefs of those she has liberated. I'm not justifying all her actions, she's made numerous mistakes and been inconsistent in her applications of justice, and I'm not actually someone who enjoys her character at all, but conquering Meereen to abolish slavery and attempting to learn how to rule fairly are certainly high moral endeavours.

The SOH are almost exactly what you claim they're not - faceless terrorists. They are fighting against an authority that has been accepted by the majority of the people in order to attempt to re-establish slavery.

Dany abolished slavery, but she needs to do more to enforce that. We saw slavers operating outside Meereen when Tyrion and Jorah were taken. Dany isn't happy with the peace deal that Hizdahr brings back from Yunkai, which re-abolishes slavery there and establishes a power-sharing system of government, with the sole condition that the fighting pits be reopened for free men only. She rejects that compromise. I think it would have been better to accept it, with the condition of rigorous checks to ensure the actual free status of all fighters (and, for that matter, the actual free status of people in general). Maybe that would've prevented what happened with Tyrion and Jorah.

It's not clear that the Sons of the Harpy on the show are trying to re-establish slavery. At Daznak's Pit, it looked like the people they killed were wearing noble clothing. I saw them push past former slaves to kill such people. I didn't see them killing any people dressed as former slaves are generally shown to dress. As such, I'd guess that the suspicion that the Sons of the Harpy were tools of the great families was a red herring. Mossador thought that, but the fact that they kill Hizdahr and other nobles points towards another conclusion.

What they actually are remains open to discussion. All we know is that they've attacked Unsullied in the past, and recently killed a lot of nobles and tried to kill Dany. The context in which they killed the nobles was one in which the great houses seemed to be cooperating and sharing rulership with Dany, due to her betrothal to Hizdahr. My best guess is that they represent low-tier nobles and/or prosperous ordinary citizens who were already free before Dany's arrival, who want to have a higher social status than former slaves, so, again, they'll have a class to lord it over. The great families were already decimated by Dany crucifying over a hundred of their leaders, and were so disempowered that they couldn't even prevent the leaders that remained from being abducted, imprisoned, and threatened with death-by-dragon. That might have represented a power vacuum to the lower-level nobles and prosperous citizens: if they could clear the top rung, they could be on top. Maybe, after doing that, they planned to re-establish slavery... or maybe they didn't. Hard to tell. Either way, they still wanted the former slaves to be around, to do all the work that such people do.

Tyrion bemoans violence and bloodshed for the sake of entertainment, but yes, when it comes to defending his life and the lives of innocents around him, he will kill to survive. This is NOT the same as condoning all violence, you cannot simply disregard the context of his actions.

I agree that bloodshed in self-defence isn't the same as bloodshed for sport. Context is absolutely necessary. Tyrion had every right to defend himself. But Tyrion was quite willing to see others die for his sake, with his two trials by combat. Sure, he knew himself to be innocent, but he doesn't believe in some universally-powerful force of supernatural justice that will only let the representatives of the innocent win such trials. That's what should be. He knows that what is is that the better combatant will win, and he'll work within that system. He was also willing to fight for his family at the Blackwater and elsewhere, regardless of the legitimacy of their rule. It was "my family, right or wrong." Is that really so different from "my culture, right or wrong"?

I really feel like Tyrion's distinction between what is and what should be was ludicrous. Tyrion is an expert at dealing with what is, and very rarely fails to take that into account by preferring to focus on what should be. One instance of prioritising what should be is his refusal to rape Sansa, when making her pregnant would have improved his position of power. But, on the whole, he prefers to get in the mud and fight his enemies there rather than quitting the fight and going somewhere else. We see that when Shae encourages him to run away with her, and he refuses, because he likes the game. He believes that the way to get to what should be is through dealing with what is. And I actually think that was precisely the same point that Hizdahr was making.

Completely wrong. Hizdahr claimed his father was against crucifying the children, not that he was an abolitionist. He told Dany his father helped build the Great Pyramid, which Missandei said cost thousands of slaves their lives.

As has already been pointed out, Hizdahr's father helped to restore the pyramid, which I can't imagine costing lives (beyond the typical rate of accidents, which happen in our free world too). When I think "restoration," I imagine it would involve more specialised, delicate work than hauling thousands of massive stone blocks around. It would involve cleaning the stonework, carefully chiseling carvings that had been smoothed by centuries of wind to make them look precise again, etc. This is just my way of looking at it, but I do think restoration wouldn't be a brutal project.

As for abolition, it's true that we have no idea if there have ever been abolitionists among the nobles. It does seem unlikely, given that their power depended on slavery. However, ask yourself how successful any abolitionists among the nobles could ever be, if they spoke out. Hizdahr's father, "one of Meereen's most beloved citizens," head of one of its most ancient and respected families, couldn't even win over a majority of the nobles to not crucifying over a hundred helpless slave children. If he couldn't talk them into something as morally basic as not committing that atrocity, he could hardly have talked them into giving up on slavery altogether, even if that was something he would have wanted.

[The Grandmaster]

Hizdahr zo Loraq is not allowed to be right about anything anymore because he is a former slaver. That's the feeling you get from everyone on the show (Dany, Tyrion, etc), and that's the feeling I get from the arguments on this forum. It seems very single-minded to me.

[The Ghost of Rhaegar]

I wanted Hizdar to be behind the insurrection. It would have made his weakness in front of Dany only an excellent cover for his true ambitions... its been so long since i read the book, wasn't he the one Barristan outed as running the Harpy resistance in the book?

[Stannis' shadow babies]

Hizdahr zo Loraq is not allowed to be right about anything anymore because he is a former slaver. That's the feeling you get from everyone on the show (Dany, Tyrion, etc), and that's the feeling I get from the arguments on this forum. It seems very single-minded to me.

This.

[StarksNTargs]

Honestly, the look on his face when he got stabbed just looked fake... so, he is either a bad actor, or that part was staged by the SoTH in order to make it seem like he wasn't part of the plot to kill Dany.