The Main Problem With This Season

[Ned's Sword]

I think the problems started when they stretched ASOS so much. Now, I'm just a fan and I know literally nothing about how tv works but from a storytelling point of view; it would've been much better to have Joffrey die at the end of season 3 and be done with material from ASOS by S04E6. Having less bloated seasons 3 and 4 would've helped season 5 a lot imo.

[Lord Eddard]

Are there actually people disputing that the books are superior to the television adaptation in every respect?

Here. As long as we are speaking of Dance, the show is better in every aspect except maybe for Dorne - and that wasn't exactly stellar in Dance either.

Now, books one to three are simply magnificent and no show will ever match their grandeur. That was when GRRM was still a writer, though.

[YaDingus Roast Lord]

Are these people serious? untalented?? disaster?? Just a look at the ratings proves these posts are delusional (or ironic???). keep dreaming purists.

Ratings don't mean anything. Most of the people who watch the show only know maybe 15 names and are tuning in because it's what's "in" right now. And in the words of Bill Murray "People like blood sausage. People are idiots."

[Lordsteve666]

I think the problems started when they stretched ASOS so much. Now, I'm just a fan and I know literally nothing about how tv works but from a storytelling point of view; it would've been much better to have Joffrey die at the end of season 3 and be done with material from ASOS by S04E6. Having less bloated seasons 3 and 4 would've helped season 5 a lot imo.

I think the pacing was pretty good up until S5 started. One season per book seemed to be about right and there was a good balance of book elements and added material to make a good flowing storyline.

Now we're getting some plots being sped up to the point at which D&D can put their favourite characters together, parts cut out, and the pacing seems way off.

[HousePotterz]

There is both kinds. Brienne's story in Feast is only going to be good for TV if it's a show about Brienne of Tarth, where she is the star and all the detail of that story can be put in there. In this story, where her actions lead to not much, it can't be in the show other than maybe the very last set of events.

There is also to some degree legitimate comparing of things the show does when what they do is worse than what was in the books. Dorne was weak in the books, the sand snakes were cartoonish in the books. That whole thing was not well done by the author. But, it was still a lot better than what was done by the show.

To me, the KL book story of Cersei setting up Marg for adultery is much better than what they did in the show with the gay brother thing which feels very forced and out of place and unrealistic. So, yes, I do compare the show unfavorably to the books because I feel that what they created is not as good, or logical as what they had to work with, a much simplified version of the book story where Cersei just tries to set up Marg for adultery, minus all the other Kettleblack stuff, seems like it would be better.

And all of these critiques don't fall into the category of criticism that I was referring to. These are well reasoned criticisms with supporting evidence as to why you believe them. I can have a back-and-forth with you on these critiques. As a matter of fact, I agree with you on just about all of them.

Not so with the accusations of "fanfiction" and "sex quotas" and the like.

The only issue I'd take up on any of your above points is that something felt "forced" or "rushed." As soon as it became clear that the show was going to wrap in 7 seasons, I accepted the fact that some plot points would feel rushed. That's just the logistics of trying to adapt 7,000 pages of source material into 70 hours of television. But then, if that's a reason you like the books better, I totally get that.

[GilletteMace]

Let's be honest here, folks. This is a forum populated by fans of A Song of Ice and Fire, first and foremost. You watch Game of Thrones because it's an adaptation of a piece of literature you love/greatly enjoy. So when some events or characters you enjoy don't appear, or some events are changed, or even iconic lines of dialogue are changed, it irks you. I get it. I've been there too.

But this forum, and that of Tower of the Hand as well, suffer from an insufferably haughty attitude when it comes to critiquing the show.

You fail to take into account the logistics and day-to-day realities of creating a show of this size, which is literally unprecedented. You fail to understand the simple yet overwhelmingly important differences in telling a story in words and telling it in pictures. You fail to accept that adapting the part of this story that follows A Storm of Swords presents tremendous difficulties, due to the large number of new characters and storylines, slower pacing, and more cerebral conflicts in many characters (and yet all this must still be done in the same 10 hours of screen time). And finally, you also fail to understand the critical problem facing the showrunners of adapting a story that isn't finished yet, and the unprecedented nature of adapting half a story from the page, and the other half from scratch, or very close to it.

The simple fact is that outside of this and a few other internet forums populated mostly by book purists, the show has done fine this season. There is not a single thing that points to a drastic decrease in fandom or viewership, and there is absolutely no way it will be canceled or that new showrunners will be brought in before its conclusion.

i also think this is pretty much spot on. the show is not the books, its very simple to understand.

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

ugh, calling someone a "book purist" in an argument is near the same as calling someone a "nazi" in an argument. It's a fail, it doesn't explain anything, and it's hard to take you seriously after do so.

Also, popularity (ratings) does not equal quality, e.g. McDonalds, Walmart, Transformers movies. Read critic's review's for this season, read public comment. Plenty of people are hate-watching the show at this point, more out of obligation than enjoyment.

I don't give a damn about purity to the book storyline at this point, I care a bout the QUALITY OF STORYTELLING, and the SCRIPTS for this season were absolute dogshit. Watch any movie that had a lousy or unfinished script when they went into production--they all end up lousy, that's because a bad script equals a bad finished product and there's no way you can get around that.

Arya: Done F**k all this season but slowly sweep floors, scrub bodies, tell a few lies. 10 episodes just to kill Trant. SNORE zZZz. ZZZ

Dorne: The SandSnakes intro scene under the tent was LOL bad. Horrible acting, let me tell my own damn sisters my origin story. Then the simultaneous daytime arrival fight scene (dance off?) in the water gardens. Rediculous--I'm supposed to take this seriously? But bewbs,

Stannis: Only soft spot is his daughter. It's built up a few seasons now. Hahah, just kidding, I changed my mind I'll burn my only heir b/c character consistency is less important than shock value.

Littlefinger: I know everything about everyone & am always 10 steps ahead except for this well known sadist I'm going to marry off to my prized possession(Sansa) for no foreseeable gain, b/c character consistency is less important than contriving a plotline in order to get a shock scene (involving rape--how original!).

Honestly I could go on but it's just exhausting.

Try reading something like Robert McKee's "Story" if you want to understand real screenwriting and why it is so important to maintain organic character growth instead of changes that are unearned and inconsistent.

Instead of being a sycophant to D&D's GoT show whilst hypocritically & dismissively labeling anyone who has even the slightest criticism for it a "book purist," why not try to engage or refute legitimate criticisms on solid grounds.

[Free Northman Reborn]

All the whorehouse scenes could have been scrapped and allocated to world/character building.

So too all the Grey Worm/Missandei interactions.

Frankly, the entire Dorne plot could have been scrapped in the Show, for all the meaning it had, other than including some diversity into the cast. From a plot or character development point of view it was utterly wasted.

Bronn could have been reduced to a Daario level character, thus saving a boatload of screentime for more important aspects, to add real depth to the series.

The excessive focus on Amazon/Xena warrior princess Brienne could have been reduced significantly as well.

There are so many more important things happening in the story that should have gotten attention, rather than D&D's pet projects that add little to the bigger scheme or to the story as a whole.

So the argument is not insufficient screentime so much as screentime wasted on insignificant, non value adding topics.

[Cas Stark]

And all of these critiques don't fall into the category of criticism that I was referring to. These are well reasoned criticisms with supporting evidence as to why you believe them. I can have a back-and-forth with you on these critiques. As a matter of fact, I agree with you on just about all of them.

Not so with the accusations of "fanfiction" and "sex quotas" and the like.

The only issue I'd take up on any of your above points is that something felt "forced" or "rushed." As soon as it became clear that the show was going to wrap in 7 seasons, I accepted the fact that some plot points would feel rushed. That's just the logistics of trying to adapt 7,000 pages of source material into 70 hours of television. But then, if that's a reason you like the books better, I totally get that.

I do accuse them of fanfiction with the Brienne and the Hound fight, LOL.

It becomes hard to critique some of the decisions they're making without having the end.

I thought they should have kept in Stoneheart, yes, because I love her, but also because it gives the audience some fuck yeah stark payback and keeps the freys/riverlands story in the show, which helps with some of the continuity....Thoros was great, the supporting BWB guys were great, doing a little something with them this season instead of all that Missy/Greyworm might have been better and more interesting to the viewer.

I assume that Aegon=Quentyn and that's why he's out, which is a shame, but I can live with it.

I'm not sure what's going to happen with the Greyjoys since they're casting Euron, who I hated, but don't seem to be getting Asha to Stannis and Balon not dead yet, LOL.

But, we don't know, truth be told, not that much 'action' occurred that was critical to the main stories in the last two books, the upcoming books may be more of the same.

I still think the pacing is issue of the show, they did better when they had the blueprint of the books to guide them, when they were much more on their own this year even w/only having to mix and match and cut, but still something that already exists in a linear fashion, they really faltered, so I fear that next year may be even more crazy and off the wall when all they have is some basic outline.

[GilletteMace]

@damp

Game of Thrones writing really isnt dramatically shitty. i do feel the tension and i feel the hardhome action. it delivers on being very entertaining. if it doesnt entertain you anymore i see no point in bashing it for being shitty. from your perspective you beat a dead horse.

looking at all the other shows i swear this one is a masterpiece storywise.

[Annara Snow]

Game of Thrones writing really isnt dramatically shitty. i do feel the tension and i feel the hardhome action. it delivers on being very entertaining. if it doesnt entertain you anymore i see no point i bashing it for being shitty. from your perspective you beat a dead horse.

looking at all the other shows i swear this one is a masterpiece storywise.

Which shows are these? Reality shows? Mexican telenovelas?

I don't watch either, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are on the same level of GoT season 5.... Otherwise, it is hard to think of something as badly written as this season. Even Heroes post season 1 was not this bad, they had the same lack of consistency in characterization, the same lack of narrative structure and internal logic, the same randomness of plots, but at least didn't go out of their way to piss off the viewers or make characters act like total morons all the time.

[Cas Stark]

i also think this is pretty much spot on. the show is not the books, its very simple to understand.

I don't understand it. It's an adaptation. All adaptations are measured against the source material. Fealty to the source material is not the only measurement, but it's a big one. Certainly adaptations can be good as stand alone pieces while not being faithful to the source material and vice versa.

But, when people pretend there is not a connection and act like it's crazy and insane that the show be benchmarked against its' source, no, I don't understand it.

[Borodin]

Calling someone a "book purist" is like calling someone a "water purist". All you communicate is that you are happy to drink sewage.

[GilletteMace]

I don't understand it. It's an adaptation. All adaptations are measured against the source material. Fealty to the source material is not the only measurement, but it's a big one. Certainly adaptations can be good as stand alone pieces while not being faithful to the source material and vice versa.

But, when people pretend there is not a connection and act like it's crazy and insane that the show be benchmarked against its' source, no, I don't understand it.

i cant understand it for you. there are so many differences between the books and the show, if people still argue for a 1:1 adaption in season 5, they really do not understand the technical differences between a tv show and a book. many misconceptions derive from this simple fact.

the nitpicking and comparing got old pretty fast and it will be better once the source runs completely dry.

[Cas Stark]

i cant understand it for you. there are so many differences between the books and the show, if people still argue for a 1:1 adaption in season 5, they really do not understand the technical differences between a tv show and a book. many misconceptions derive from this simple fact.

the nitpicking and comparing got old pretty fast and it will be better once the source runs completely dry.

I've never argued for such a thing. But, the books are the books and the show is the show, no I don't understand the meaning, because it seems to be saying that the two shouldn't be compared, which I don't understand. When The Great Gatsby is filmed, it is evaluated as a film and how it translates the novel to the screen, does it capture the characters and the themes and the tone. I'm not sure why GOT should be different, except that books are books/show is show is an easy way to stop discussions.

ETA, I think the overwhelming majority of show critics understand the differences in the two mediums and the criticisms reflect that understanding.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

This season has been a borderline disaster. They need to take stock and readjust. TD&D have very little good will / fan support left, they've burned people witht he same BS too many times. Rape rape rape, characters doing things totally out of character, 87 minutes of Arya sweeping the goddamn floors (don't tell me this is more exciting than the book material left out).

Too bad HBO renewed the show and D&D through season 6 b/c honestly they should fire those two, get new showrunners, and start fresh w/ more talented individuals & w/o the dumb 7 season constraint. The scripts were atrocious this season. Bad scripting ruins any production. You can't build a monument on a swamp of shit.

There was a much worse rape in the books than what we got in the show, it just happened to someone the reader cared less about, which is I think the point the showrunners are trying to make.

[Borodin]

i cant understand it for you. there are so many differences between the books and the show, if people still argue for a 1:1 adaption in season 5.

Nobody has ever argued for this. Not even close. Do you have something to contribute other than to impute fake positions to people?

[TheKitttenGuard]

Nobody has ever argued for this. Not even close. Do you have something to contribute other than to impute fake positions to people?

Yes,people were arguing AFFC should be adapted for an entire season or more.

[Borodin]

Yes,people were arguing AFFC should be adapted for an entire season or more.

Not scene for scene.

[Lord Freypie]

Yes,people were arguing AFFC should be adapted for an entire season or more.

Less than 3 seasons would have been short for a 1:1 adaptation of AFFC, and nobody suggested so many.