The Main Problem With This Season

[King of the Mudd]

:rofl: OK, so let's just get it straight: either you haven't read AFFC and haven't read its summary on wiki, or you're just trolling? Which is it?

It's even more laughable because she's had so much to do that she's been to busy to appear for 4 episodes.

[lancerman]

I agree Dorne is ending in a similar place to where it does in the book, my problem is that the journey there was poorly executed, and unless something dramatic happens in the last episode, none of the characters have moved forwards at all, either in motivation or narrative importance.

I agree book Stannis is very different to show Stannis, but I personally hadn't noticed any of the build up you described, as his only prior form was killing Renly, who I think we all agree isn't anywhere near as close to him as show Shireen. Heck, he doesn't even kill any Florents in the show. Hence why I think its out of character.

Hardhome did work, but Brienne is doing so little that she's not been seen for ages. Sansa has moved back to being a victim again, despite multiple hints from actors and at the end of S4 that she would become a player, so no real development there either.

To me, it feels like it's spinning its wheels a bit, with the exception of Hardhome.

I'll just address the Stannis point real quick.

Stannis is kind of skeptical of Mel at the beginning and keeps her at arms length but thinks she might be useful. In a moment of desperation, he conspires to use her magic to kill his brother. This is the first instance of Stannis using Mel's magic to kill a member of his own family. Then he prepares for the Battle of Blackwater and Davos convinces him not to bring Mel. He doesn't. He loses. He never gets over this and believes he would have won had Mel been by his side. He holds this over Davos. They capture his bastard nephew (Gendry in the show, Edric in the books). At first Stannis is against sacrificing him when Mel suggests it. This is different than Renly. He's a defenseless kid who poses no threat to him. Mel uses the leeches to kill Robb, Joff, and Balon. Almost immediately Robb and Joff suffer surprising deaths in places they are supposed to be safe. After this he agrees to compromise and sacrifice Gendry. Davos once again thwarts him. It's worth noting at one point in this Mel does bring up using Shireen. Stannis is enraged and wants Davos executed. But he finds out about the Wall and they decide to go their. He learns about the threat of the Others and how all of Westeros is in danger. He now realizes that the great savior that Mel kept babbling about him being was destined to save Westeros from this apocalyptic threat. The stakes got higher. He travels to Winterfell to secure the North and undercut the Boltons. Immediately winter arrives and his troops are in low morale, people are abandoning, and he realizes if he turns back he might have to wait out winter at the Wall and will probably lose his chance. So now he's resolved to keep going. Mel tells him to burn Shireen to ensure victory, Stannis at first refuses but seems conflicted. Ramsay burns his camp, they lose all their shelter, most of their food, and siege weapons. Now they are desperate, they are in a must win situation, and Stannis believing he is AA thinks his fate is tied to the fate of Westeros. So learning from his prior mistakes he sends Davos away to the Wall, and has Shireen burned even though as he said "he hates it".

There is a trend of Stannis falling deeper into Mel's magic and conceding to make increasingly more abhorrent compromises to achieve his ends. There is also a lingering theme of Stannis regretting not using Mel at Blackwater and believing he almost lost his greatest chance because of it. All these things built up to that moment.

Now D&D made the decision to make Stannis a lot more sympathetic to his daughter in the show to make it come off more like a difficult decision.

[A_Cornered_Wolf]

There are a number of straw men and ad hominem attacks being offered up as responses to criticisms of the show. I'm not going to address them directly because if I wanted to spend time combating weak debating techniques, usually used to try and 'win' an arguement, I'd engage in debating American politics online.

I also feel the need to point out painting any critic of the show with the broad brush of 'book snob' is not only ridiculous but short sighted (and an ad hominem attack). I watched a season and a half before I touched a book. I loved the show in its first couple seasons, but that love has gone as I've always been a fan of good writing and storytelling and that has been getting progressively worse.

I've maybe read the books twice now, and that's including re-reading parts of it for the purposes of debating the book and show.

So now that I've proven I'm not obsessed with the books, is my opinion valid?

[Lord Freypie]

The fact though is that many threads are quickly overrun with people bashing the show. It's fan site, so the fact that this is the case is unusual (since most shows don't share a book and show forum). It shouldn't be an anomoly for people to praise a show on a fansite. That is the norm. But many show lovers have been put off by the hate on this site over the years.

But your bolded part is most odd. From what I have seen over the years most fans here that defend the show like both the show and books, and most actually prefer the books if they had to choose.

Actually it may be something of this season because some people especially hate AFFC/ADWD but I remember dozens of occurences of answering to criticics of some show change (I'm not even speaking extreme critics) with very harsh criticism of the books. Ok I may be paranoid thinking people are registering there just for that.

But all I wanted to say is, like it or not, this place is not a generalist forum, but the main gathering of die hard fans of Asoiaf, and it's logical a sizable group of them are far more critical of the adaptation (or want things that other publics wouldn't like, like a slower pace so this or that element they liked could be included) than the average public. And about the over the top criticism it's just the result of such forums being one of the only places where such public is gathered (+ many things people take as over the top criticism is more in the private jokes category than wholly serious imo, no thread is more funny than the rant and raves, usually).

[Cas Stark]

Here is another example. Arya.

How is anyone who hasn't read the books to understand what the hell is going on? They brought Tom W. back, so use him? Throw out some of the book story and have him and Arya interact more directly, since they have good screen chemistry. Those segments could have been used to give more background on the FM, even on Essos and dragons. There is a lot they could have done closer to Arya and Tywin interacting than what they've done which is a lot of random stuff that is slightly visually interesting but has no plot or dialogue that anyone can follow.

How does anyone who didn't read the books know what in the hell is the lying game or what is going on with that other girl? So, either cut it or explain it. It's not rocket science. All she has to do is walk in and say, let's play a game, you lie and see if I can tell..., instead of having her run in there like a maniac where the viewer has no idea whats happening. Or cut the character. Or do something else with her.

[GilletteMace]

the problem with this season are the viewers and their expectations.

game of thrones is a constant hype especially if you think its one of the best shows ever, like i do. now every hype gets stale after a while, you expect every episode to be the coming of the next messiah. obviously it is impossible to deliver on that expectation.

all the critics i read are people nitpicking, and talking about the books. its just wrong when judging about the show. now others come with cheap writing, they impute D&D with messing around with the story, as if it belongs to them. their arrogance and ignorance just hurts. i thank D&D for the great show and enjoy it for what it is, a tv show.

i enjoyed every episode of this season so far but the last two really stood out, concerning tension and visuals. the only problem i had so far is that the first episodes seemed to prepare the viewer for the next big thing while not showing it, now everything comes together and things seem to concentrate. until hardhome i felt like "ok" about the development of GoT. i just hope the next season spreads out the concentration more evenly throughout the 10 episodes.

weakest scene this season: Dany riding the dragon, visually it was pretty crappy. it had this "riding a horse down the beach into the sunset romantics" could have been the wet dream of a 12 year old horse lover. i am neither 12 nor do i love horses (or dragons). 100% pure goat cheese that scene...

[King of the Mudd]

I'll just address the Stannis point real quick.

Stannis is kind of skeptical of Mel at the beginning and keeps her at arms length but thinks she might be useful. In a moment of desperation, he conspires to use her magic to kill his brother. This is the first instance of Stannis using Mel's magic to kill a member of his own family. Then he prepares for the Battle of Blackwater and Davos convinces him not to bring Mel. He doesn't. He loses. He never gets over this and believes he would have won had Mel been by his side. He holds this over Davos. They capture his bastard nephew (Gendry in the show, Edric in the books). At first Stannis is against sacrificing him when Mel suggests it. This is different than Renly. He's a defenseless kid who poses no threat to him. Mel uses the leeches to kill Robb, Joff, and Balon. Almost immediately Robb and Joff suffer surprising deaths in places they are supposed to be safe. After this he agrees to compromise and sacrifice Gendry. Davos once again thwarts him. It's worth noting at one point in this Mel does bring up using Shireen. Stannis is enraged and wants Davos executed. But he finds out about the Wall and they decide to go their. He learns about the threat of the Others and how all of Westeros is in danger. He now realizes that the great savior that Mel kept babbling about him being was destined to save Westeros from this apocalyptic threat. The stakes got higher. He travels to Winterfell to secure the North and undercut the Boltons. Immediately winter arrives and his troops are in low morale, people are abandoning, and he realizes if he turns back he might have to wait out winter at the Wall and will probably lose his chance. So now he's resolved to keep going. Mel tells him to burn Shireen to ensure victory, Stannis at first refuses but seems conflicted. Ramsay burns his camp, they lose all their shelter, most of their food, and siege weapons. Now they are desperate, they are in a must win situation, and Stannis believing he is AA thinks his fate is tied to the fate of Westeros. So learning from his prior mistakes he sends Davos away to the Wall, and has Shireen burned even though as he said "he hates it".

There is a trend of Stannis falling deeper into Mel's magic and conceding to make increasingly more abhorrent compromises to achieve his ends. There is also a lingering theme of Stannis regretting not using Mel at Blackwater and believing he almost lost his greatest chance because of it. All these things built up to that moment.

Now D&D made the decision to make Stannis a lot more sympathetic to his daughter in the show to make it come off more like a difficult decision.

When you lay it out like that you do make a very good case for it :) I just don't think those motivations were explored as clearly on the show. I know a lot of people who ended up confused after Stan's flip-flop the moment the going gets rough. Maybe another scene earlier in the season exploring the pressures of AA instead of Grey Worm/Missandei might have helped?

As someone earlier said, it's a problem of pacing for me. His motivations could have been addressed in far greater depth but weren't.

[Ojji]

Brienne did less in the books.

I disagree.

And I think they could have done a lot with her. For instance they could have built up the sparrows. They could have shown from her perspective the horrors of war. Septons getting killed, silent sisters being raped, churches getting burned..

One of Brienne's chapters intoduces us to Randyll Tarly. She meets many of the knights that server under Renly. She kills few of The Mountains men. Introduction to the Quiet Isle. She meets Gendyr and mentions how much he looks like Roberth Baratheon. BwB carries her to Lady Stonehearth and Jaime.

There is a story to be told for sure.

[HousePotterz]

The issue isn't that they're making changes. It's that the changes they make are often for the worse, and the stuff they cut out is often replaced by poorly written fanfiction and scenes to fill their sex quota.

This is exactly the kind of criticism I've been referring to. You can say you don't mind them making changes, but then when you say those changes are "fan fiction" or done to meet some "sex quota," you've just made my point for me.

@Cas Stark "There are tons and tons of criticisms that have nothing to do with 'it didn't happen that way in the books".

I agree. I have many of my own. Just earlier in this thread I expressed frustration with the Dornish subplot this season. It was pointless, it fell flat, and it served no purpose. But just look at what I quoted above to see the other kind of criticisms the show faces, the kind that is unreasonable, irrational, dismissive, and has no substance.

[Free Northman Reborn]

How many non book readers even knew who the hell Lancel was when he suddenly popped up to accuse Cersei of doing terrible things in the Show?

How many non book-readers even remembered who the heck Meryn Trant is? My wife who has never read the books, but loves the Show, even had to be reminded who Syrio was, in order to remember who Meryn Trant is, and why exactly Arya hates him.

I also had to explain that Braavos and Meereen - although on the same continent - are not more or less the same place, and that Daenerys is still very far from Arya at the moment.

I honestly do not understand how a Show watcher - who does not visit the Show website in order to get background info on the world - can have any idea what the heck is going on other than the most superficial shock and awe stuff that the Show tries to use to keep people interested.

[Cas Stark]

When you lay it out like that you do make a very good case for it :) I just don't think those motivations were explored as clearly on the show. I know a lot of people who ended up confused after Stan's flip-flop the moment the going gets rough. Maybe another scene earlier in the season exploring the pressures of AA instead of Grey Worm/Missandei might have helped?

As someone earlier said, it's a problem of pacing for me. His motivations could have been addressed in far greater depth but weren't.

exactly. shouldn't we have gotten a big speech from mel at the very least to explain to all of these westerosi soldiers who consider kinslaying the worst sin that exists...why burning shireen was necessary? what it was going to achieve how it was going to save them?

burning shireen is a huge deal, it turns stannis into a villain, its a hugely shocking moment for tv, but while yes it was clear mel wanted to burn her ages ago, the set up for stannis to agree was very rushed, the segment of her burning was rushed, the rationale was rushed.

[King of the Mudd]

This is exactly the kind of criticism I've been referring to. You can say you don't mind them making changes, but then when you say those changes are "fan fiction" or done to meet some "sex quota," you've just made my point for me.

@Cas Stark "There are tons and tons of criticisms that have nothing to do with 'it didn't happen that way in the books".

I agree. I have many of my own. Just earlier in this thread I expressed frustration with the Dornish subplot this season. It was pointless, it fell flat, and it served no purpose. But just look at what I quoted above to see the other kind of criticisms the show faces, the kind that is unreasonable, irrational, dismissive, and has no substance.

The objection isn't that they're making changes, but that those changes serve no narrative or dramatic purpose whatsoever, making them essentially filler. What do we really learn from Missandei/Grey Worm, or from Tyene's rack? It's a reminder of season 1's "sexposition".

[King of the Mudd]

exactly. shouldn't we have gotten a big speech from mel at the very least to explain to all of these westerosi soldiers who consider kinslaying the worst sin that exists...why burning shireen was necessary? what it was going to achieve how it was going to save them?

burning shireen is a huge deal, it turns stannis into a villain, its a hugely shocking moment for tv, but while yes it was clear mel wanted to burn her ages ago, the set up for stannis to agree was very rushed, the segment of her burning was rushed, the rationale was rushed.

We don't even get a Walter White style descent into evil, just what seems like a snap decision, especially considering that Stannis has been more and more likeable since his low point of late S2/early S3

[Borodin]

I feel like the entire Dorne plot was just a lead up to the Tyene scene. It's all anybody talked about after the show. HBO was like "Mission accomplished!"

[Cas Stark]

This is exactly the kind of criticism I've been referring to. You can say you don't mind them making changes, but then when you say those changes are "fan fiction" or done to meet some "sex quota," you've just made my point for me.

@Cas Stark "There are tons and tons of criticisms that have nothing to do with 'it didn't happen that way in the books".

I agree. I have many of my own. Just earlier in this thread I expressed frustration with the Dornish subplot this season. It was pointless, it fell flat, and it served no purpose. But just look at what I quoted above to see the other kind of criticisms the show faces, the kind that is unreasonable, irrational, dismissive, and has no substance.

There is both kinds. Brienne's story in Feast is only going to be good for TV if it's a show about Brienne of Tarth, where she is the star and all the detail of that story can be put in there. In this story, where her actions lead to not much, it can't be in the show other than maybe the very last set of events.

There is also to some degree legitimate comparing of things the show does when what they do is worse than what was in the books. Dorne was weak in the books, the sand snakes were cartoonish in the books. That whole thing was not well done by the author. But, it was still a lot better than what was done by the show.

To me, the KL book story of Cersei setting up Marg for adultery is much better than what they did in the show with the gay brother thing which feels very forced and out of place and unrealistic. So, yes, I do compare the show unfavorably to the books because I feel that what they created is not as good, or logical as what they had to work with, a much simplified version of the book story where Cersei just tries to set up Marg for adultery, minus all the other Kettleblack stuff, seems like it would be better.

[Lordsteve666]

How many non book readers even knew who the hell Lancel was when he suddenly popped up to accuse Cersei of doing terrible things in the Show?

How many non book-readers even remembered who the heck Meryn Trant is? My wife who has never read the books, but loves the Show, even had to be reminded who Syrio was, in order to remember who Meryn Trant is, and why exactly Arya hates him.

I also had to explain that Braavos and Meereen - although on the same continent - are not more or less the same place, and that Daenerys is still very far from Arya at the moment.

I honestly do not understand how a Show watcher - who does not visit the Show website in order to get background info on the world - can have any idea what the heck is going on other than the most superficial shock and awe stuff that the Show tries to use to keep people interested.

All of this is one of my problems with the show.

There is no back story or world building going on, no history of the Seven Kingdoms to explain how things work or to explain the geography. A lot of the characters could be literally anywhere as their locations really don't seem to mater, and what happened in previous seasons doesn't mater either.

Everyone has forgotten the Red Wedding, there's no mention of the Ghiscari hating Danny for breaking the slave trade, there's no explanation of what the Iron Bank is, or why Dorne is so different to the rest of the world. That's just a few things.

[Khorkalba]

This is exactly the kind of criticism I've been referring to. You can say you don't mind them making changes, but then when you say those changes are "fan fiction" or done to meet some "sex quota," you've just made my point for me.

I just gave you an example of a change I didn't mind them making (LSH). If you want another, I had no complaints at all about them leaving Strong Belwas out. I also didn't mind them spending more time on Robb even though he's not a POV character in the books, because that was handled reasonably well.

Then you have decisions like Daenerys welcoming Tyrion as her advisor against all logic with minimal interrogation beforehand. There's no other word for that change besides fanfiction. The writers simply couldn't wait to have two of their favourite characters as best friends. Or the love story between Missandei and Grey Worm. Why in God's name are we getting that instead of some of the quality content they've discarded from AFfC/ADwD?

[Lord Eddard]

Yes, please waste your time doing that, if you so wish. It will change precisely zero people's minds about the show.

Let's be honest here, folks. This is a forum populated by fans of A Song of Ice and Fire, first and foremost. You watch Game of Thrones because it's an adaptation of a piece of literature you love/greatly enjoy. So when some events or characters you enjoy don't appear, or some events are changed, or even iconic lines of dialogue are changed, it irks you. I get it. I've been there too.

But this forum, and that of Tower of the Hand as well, suffer from an insufferably haughty attitude when it comes to critiquing the show.

You fail to take into account the logistics and day-to-day realities of creating a show of this size, which is literally unprecedented. You fail to understand the simple yet overwhelmingly important differences in telling a story in words and telling it in pictures. You fail to accept that adapting the part of this story that follows A Storm of Swords presents tremendous difficulties, due to the large number of new characters and storylines, slower pacing, and more cerebral conflicts in many characters (and yet all this must still be done in the same 10 hours of screen time). And finally, you also fail to understand the critical problem facing the showrunners of adapting a story that isn't finished yet, and the unprecedented nature of adapting half a story from the page, and the other half from scratch, or very close to it.

The simple fact is that outside of this and a few other internet forums populated mostly by book purists, the show has done fine this season. There is not a single thing that points to a drastic decrease in fandom or viewership, and there is absolutely no way it will be canceled or that new showrunners will be brought in before its conclusion.

This thread could have been wrapped with one word: Dorne. Dorne is the main problem this season.

Thank you. I couldn't agree more.

[Free Northman Reborn]

My belief is that Beniof and Weiss are basically counting on the fact that every group of Show watchers has at least one book reader in their midst to explain all the stuff that the Show simply glosses over.

Because honestly, if I try to imagine not knowing anything from the books, then the Show makes little sense if taken at face value.

[marsyao]

Here is another example. Arya.

How is anyone who hasn't read the books to understand what the hell is going on? They brought Tom W. back, so use him? Throw out some of the book story and have him and Arya interact more directly, since they have good screen chemistry. Those segments could have been used to give more background on the FM, even on Essos and dragons. There is a lot they could have done closer to Arya and Tywin interacting than what they've done which is a lot of random stuff that is slightly visually interesting but has no plot or dialogue that anyone can follow.

The only reason D&D brought Tom W back is a cheap shot to appease the audiences, Look, I bring back one of your favorite! But their decision destroys the mystic of this FM character, and afterward they fail to use him properly, as you said, non book reader would have no idea what is the FM organization about, why they kill and what is exactly is their "gift of mercy" and gift of death, they could easily confuse them with justice league