R+L=J v.145

[UnmaskedLurker]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be implying that there is a "right" way to read the text and that anyone who does not reach the same conclusions as you do must innately be reading the text "wrong."

Cannot see how this is a viable position. Even in finished works, let alone unfinished ones.

Not at all. There are many possibilities. I just think that there also are some implausibilities. When someone puts forth an approach that seems fundamentally flawed, I point that out. I think that particular line of reasoning I was discussing is fundamentally flawed. I am fairly confident that later books will prove me correct. If I am wrong, I will apologize. I am trying not to make this personal, but I just think some approaches are fruitless, and I want people to learn from their mistakes. If my approach turns out to be the flawed approach -- I will be the one who would be expected to adjust going forward -- and I would.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I'm guessing UL means if the goal is to come to the correct conclusion about something. If it turns out that Lyanna's death is child birth related, then people who claimed otherwise would have been mistaken in their interpretation -- reading -- of the clues. And if her death is related to a battle wound ... vice versa.

Yes, you seem to have gotten to know me well enough that you get what I mean. Basically that is it. Assume that the book comes out and confirms that Lyanna died from complications from childbirth. Assume further that GRRM confirms that of course, he expected people to be able to figure it out -- that is why he had the references by MMD and the Greyjoy story -- to let readers know what he means. In that case, I would hope someone who was so sure that GRRM might have been misdirecting with the MMD and Greyjoy stories and thought greater thematic intent pointed in a different direction would realize that his or her approach to interpretation of the text was flawed and adjust going forward.

On the other hand, I admit that if I was wrong and Lyanna died a more violent death, then I will have to rethink my entire approach to interpreting the text going forward. I will have to admit that I misread the clues because I thought a certain approach to reading the clues made sense, and I will have to try to employ a different approach going forward. I just am fairly confident I won't have to make that adjustment because I have very high confidence that my interpretation of Lyanna's death will prove to be correct.

[stateofdissipation]

In Medieval speak, it's known as "childbed" but since GRRM can't say that, he calls it the bloody bed.

Why even throw bed in there when she could have just been found elsewhere like on the floor, or a cot in a cell?

Lysa was the price Jon Arryn had to pay for the "swords and spears" of house Tully

Does this mean Hoster gave arms to the rebellion?

Does the term "swords and spears" use a part of Hoster's army to describe the whole?

Petyr offers Ned the gold cloaks.

Does this mean Petyr is offering clothing?

Does the term "gold cloaks" use a part of the uniform of the city guard to describe the whole?

Were you to choose an image of childbirth to represent the whole, what would it be?

a part to sum up the whole...

MMD chose "bloody bed"... It makes sense. MMD did not even need to specify...“I know every secret of the bloody bed, Silver Lady. said to a pregnant lady is enough to conclude childbirth. MMD's merely states skill at midwifery by adding I have never lost a babe.

[Bael's Bastard]

I think Lady Dustin probably has a genuine dislike for Ned, that is perhaps even relatively well known. But I definitely think she is playing it up. I don't believe for a second that she has more dislike for Ned than she has for Roose and the Boltons. I don't believe she would have considered plotting against Ned while he lived (granted, Ned was in a much more powerful position than Roose and the Boltons are), but I have little doubt that she is plotting against Roose and the Boltons now. I'm not saying she has any love for Ned, I think she is playing on legitimate feelings she has or has had. But I think she is more concerned about the Boltons than she claims to be about Ned's bones.

[WeaselPie]

"nor have I ever lost a babe"

Loss of a baby is a miscarriage, a stillbirth, a babe who died at birth from complications. Lost can also mean missing/taken.

GRRM chose to use secret and loss in the sentence he wrote about MMR and the bloody bed. I think we can all agree secret can be connected. If he wanted us to connect the thoughts (bed of blood/bloody bed), context is important. GRRM did not have to write that MMR never "lost a babe" in the same sentence. He didn't have to write that at all.

And the imagery of a "bed of blood" is equally important, as Wolfmaid pointed out. Robert was in a bloody bed. So was Sansa. Just because GRRM did not use the term "bloody bed" does not mean their beds were not bloody, because they most certainly and explicitly were.

Add in the spattered gore and Lyanna's white dress in Theon's dream. Add in her slimness in Theon's dream. In the dream, the dead characters we know appear as they looked like at death.

Yeah, I'm sure some people can argue that a woman can lose weight quickly after birth, but come on. GRRM chose her to be slim in the dream, he's not going to write a chapter about her careful diet and Zumba.

GRRM chose for her to wear a white dress in the dream. Who wears a white dress for childbirth, or if someone is there, who dresses a woman in white for childbirth? And no, white is not a wedding dress color in the books.

Add in her tears of blood. We have another woman who appears to cry tears of blood. Cat. She scratches at her eyes when her son is killed.

Add in the multiple (broken) promises. If Lyanna is buried in the crypts and Ned brought up Jon safely and secretly, what's missing from this picture?

Cumulatively, there are far, far more questions between the lines than can be answered by the accepted RLJ scenario.

[Bael's Bastard]

Have you been on Alex Jones yet?

[Alia of the knife]

I think Lady Dustin probably has a genuine dislike for Ned, that is perhaps even relatively well known. But I definitely think she is playing it up. I don't believe for a second that she has more dislike for Ned than she has for Roose and the Boltons. I don't believe she would have considered plotting against Ned while he lived (granted, Ned was in a much more powerful position than Roose and the Boltons are), but I have little doubt that she is plotting against Roose and the Boltons now. I'm not saying she has any love for Ned, I think she is playing on legitimate feelings she has or has had. But I think she is more concerned about the Boltons than she claims to be about Ned's bones.

That's a fair appraisal. I could see that.

[Sly Wren]

"nor have I ever lost a babe"

Loss of a baby is a miscarriage, a stillbirth, a babe who died at birth from complications. Lost can also mean missing/taken.

GRRM chose to use secret and loss in the sentence he wrote about MMR and the bloody bed. I think we can all agree secret can be connected. If he wanted us to connect the thoughts (bed of blood/bloody bed), context is important. GRRM did not have to write that MMR never "lost a babe" in the same sentence. He didn't have to write that at all.

And the imagery of a "bed of blood" is equally important, as Wolfmaid pointed out. Robert was in a bloody bed. So was Sansa. Just because GRRM did not use the term "bloody bed" does not mean their beds were not bloody, because they most certainly and explicitly were.

Add in the spattered gore and Lyanna's white dress in Theon's dream. Add in her slimness in Theon's dream. In the dream, the dead characters we know appear as they looked like at death.

Yeah, I'm sure some people can argue that a woman can lose weight quickly after birth, but come on. GRRM chose her to be slim in the dream, he's not going to write a chapter about her careful diet and Zumba.

GRRM chose for her to wear a white dress in the dream. Who wears a white dress for childbirth, or if someone is there, who dresses a woman in white for childbirth? And no, white is not a wedding dress color in the books.

Add in her tears of blood. We have another woman who appears to cry tears of blood. Cat. She scratches at her eyes when her son is killed.

Add in the multiple (broken) promises. If Lyanna is buried in the crypts and Ned brought up Jon safely and secretly, what's missing from this picture?

Cumulatively, there are far, far more questions between the lines than can be answered by the accepted RLJ scenario.

Agreed--childbirth limit on the phrase or not, there's too much violent imagery (of the little imagery we have) surrounding Lyanna.

Hadn't made the tears of blood connection with Cat--have been wondering about Jon going to the Wall. Ned doesn't fret too much over it (not ideal, but not terrible--opportunities to rise)--but the dream about Lyanna with bleeding eyes--if Jon is her son (which I think he is), why is Ned seeing her like this? Simply not telling Jon about his parentage--bleeding eyes seems a bit extreme, even if we were in a Poe tale. Is it to do with letting him go to the Wall? Is all that imagery you laid out on the other thread re: Lyanna and the Others tying in to Jon--and he should not be at the Wall?

The gore spattered gown just doesn't read like childbirth, even though I think she probably died in childbirth. So why the violence? Is it an omen or warning--maybe like the bleeding eyes? Though why it would be going to Theon, I'm not sure.

[Sly Wren]

Not at all. There are many possibilities. I just think that there also are some implausibilities. When someone puts forth an approach that seems fundamentally flawed, I point that out. I think that particular line of reasoning I was discussing is fundamentally flawed. I am fairly confident that later books will prove me correct. If I am wrong, I will apologize. I am trying not to make this personal, but I just think some approaches are fruitless, and I want people to learn from their mistakes. If my approach turns out to be the flawed approach -- I will be the one who would be expected to adjust going forward -- and I would.

Agreed that everyone has their own approach--there is no way to use a secret decoder ring on literature--or at least on good literature. And no one comes to any text without bias and preconceptions--that would require inhuman readers. We all read as we choose--good.

In the exchange on previous pages re: Lyanna and blood, it just seemed like people were interested in different aspects of the implications of the story, vs. just decoding RLJ. Implications--seem like viable avenues of discussion.

I suppose I just don't understand the "correct interp" vs. "wrong interp" approach to something as complex as a story. A math problem, yes. Novels--not so much. But that's just my take. As I said above--lots of ways to approach literature--which is why it's fun to discuss.

[Bael's Bastard]

There are some things the author will leave up to interpretation, but Jon's parentage IS a math problem. There will not be multiple correct interpretations.

[Sly Wren]

There are some things the author will leave up to interpretation, but Jon's parentage IS a math problem. There will not be multiple correct interpretations.

Not denying that. But what RLJ means--for Jon to be L and R's son--what the implications of that are--to Jon, to family, to others. to Others--those things can be very layered. Not math.

ETA: Still--the math analogy implies a secret decoder ring application to novels. Might work with sudoku. But novels--even for figuring out RLJ--can't see how that's viable.

[falcotron]

ETA: Still--the math analogy implies a secret decoder ring application to novels. Might work with sudoku. But novels--even for figuring out RLJ--can't see how that's viable.

I'm amazed that nobody has yet borrowed the statistical text analysis tools created by the Fomenko nuts or the letter-array search tools created by the Bible Code nut to try to prove anything in ASoIaF.

[Black Crow]

There was something called the Corn Code which somebody reckoned was a way of deciphering hidden meanings by the repetition and presentation of certain words and phrases in text; such as Corn Corn Corn. I don't remember the details but essentially it was stuff like predicting somebody was going to die by the way sentences were worded. :cool4:

[stateofdissipation]

"nor have I ever lost a babe"

Loss of a baby is a miscarriage, a stillbirth, a babe who died at birth from complications. Lost can also mean missing/taken.

GRRM chose to use secret and loss in the sentence he wrote about MMR and the bloody bed. I think we can all agree secret can be connected. If he wanted us to connect the thoughts (bed of blood/bloody bed), context is important. GRRM did not have to write that MMR never "lost a babe" in the same sentence. He didn't have to write that at all.

And the imagery of a "bed of blood" is equally important, as Wolfmaid pointed out. Robert was in a bloody bed. So was Sansa. Just because GRRM did not use the term "bloody bed" does not mean their beds were not bloody, because they most certainly and explicitly were.

Add in the spattered gore and Lyanna's white dress in Theon's dream. Add in her slimness in Theon's dream. In the dream, the dead characters we know appear as they looked like at death.

Yeah, I'm sure some people can argue that a woman can lose weight quickly after birth, but come on. GRRM chose her to be slim in the dream, he's not going to write a chapter about her careful diet and Zumba.

GRRM chose for her to wear a white dress in the dream. Who wears a white dress for childbirth, or if someone is there, who dresses a woman in white for childbirth? And no, white is not a wedding dress color in the books.

Add in her tears of blood. We have another woman who appears to cry tears of blood. Cat. She scratches at her eyes when her son is killed.

Add in the multiple (broken) promises. If Lyanna is buried in the crypts and Ned brought up Jon safely and secretly, what's missing from this picture?

Cumulatively, there are far, far more questions between the lines than can be answered by the accepted RLJ scenario.

"nor have I ever lost a babe"

Loss of a baby is a miscarriage, a stillbirth, a babe who died at birth from complications. Lost can also mean missing/taken.

MMD is claiming she never delivered a baby and forgot where she put it or let somebody else run off with it?

I a midwife. I am a reasonably responsible person too? Deliver the baby and not lose it in the sheets, leave it in a dark corner, put it at the back of a closet, let a random person take it.

Could be... It does make it a completely bizarre statement.

GRRM chose to use secret and loss in the sentence he wrote about MMR and the bloody bed.

"of the bloody bed" is a prepositional phrase acting as an adjective for "secrets"

"have never lost" is the predicate with "I" being the subject and "a babe" being the object.

"secret" is the object. "I" is the subject. "know" is the predicate.

GRRM chose to join two independent sentences with the coordinating conjunction "nor" to form a compound sentence.

I think we can all agree secret can be connected.

The object of the first sentence can be connected with the verb of the second?

Nor have I ever lost a secret.

or

I lost every secret.

If he wanted us to connect the thoughts (bed of blood/bloody bed), context is important.

GRRM chose to use a single image from childbirth, the bloody bed, to represent the whole of childbirth. This is called "synecdoche"

GRRM frequently uses synecdoche--- swords and spears are used as a term for a military force, knights in white cloaks is used to refer to the kingsguard.

GRRM frequently uses alternate descriptions with synecdoche. Ned's knights in white cloaks is Merra's white sword. Both refer to kingsguard. Cat's swords and spears is Lysa's swords. Both refer to a military force.

We do not need a connection between "bloody bed" and "bed of blood." An understanding of GRRM's use of synecdoche gives the link between Lyanna in her "bed of blood" and Lyanna in childbirth.

And the imagery of a "bed of blood" is equally important, as Wolfmaid pointed out.

"Bed of blood" is a noun with a prepositional phrase as an adjective describing that noun. There is a single image.... altering or changing this image through your imagination does not change it from one image to multiple images. We need to combine "bed of blood" with something else to get imagery.

As synecdoche, "bed of blood" contains multiple images and therefore imagery...

Robert was in a bloody bed. So was Sansa. Just because GRRM did not use the term "bloody bed" does not mean their beds were not bloody,because they most certainly and explicitly were. (for Sansa explicitly--Robert implicitly)

GRRM did not use a single image to represent Robert in his deathbed or Sansa's first period as a whole.

Were he to do so Sansa in her bloody bed and Robert in his bed of blood would serve as an excellent synecdoche. In both cases a single image can be used to direct the reader to an entire passage or event.

His failure to use a perfectly viable term to describe a whole event does not mean that Lyanna's bed of blood must be childbirth.

GRRM choosing to use bed of blood for Robert or Sansa would be a departure from his narrative POV technique. GRRM has not used narration to reference or refer to another part of the text. His use of synecdoche has been limited to a character's use of a part to represent a whole.

Add in the spattered gore and Lyanna's white dress in Theon's dream. Add in her slimness in Theon's dream.

Our dreams are not always literal you know.---GRRM

Are we supposed to add that to other images of Lyanna?

Promise me his sister had whispered in her bed of blood. Her white dress was spattered with gore.

But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna, Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind.--aCoK page 731

Notably it does not have a description of what Brandon and Rickard looked like in death...

I would like to ask if you consider this Theon's "dream" or "vision of things that actually happened"?

If it was drawn from Theon's memory or experience including what he was told-- it is a dream

If it comes from a magical transmission of knowledge Theon never experienced-- it is a vision.

Accepting it as an accurate picture of what Lyanna looked like when she died--

The picture is not clear enough to present a cause of death....

spattered with her gore (dried blood) would indicate she had been bleeding.

a white gown with gore spattered around a gaping hole in (insert body part) would indicate a violent death.

a white gown with gore spattered below her waist would indicate she had given birth or had a messy period.

As it stands there is no way to determine the cause or nature of the dried blood (gore) much less link that nature with her death.

In the dream, the dead characters we know appear as they looked like at death.

Robert in the dream.

Robert sat with his guts spilling out on the table from a great gash in his belly.---aCoK page 731

Robert at death

They had done what they could to close him up, but it was nowhere near enough. The boar must have been a fearsome thing. It had ripped the king from his groin to his nipple.--aGoT 486

Ned in the dream "Lord Eddard was headless beside him". Ned at deat---He was beheaded.

In the dream

Corpses lined the benches grey-brown flesh sloughing off their bones as they raised their glasses to toast, worms crawling in and out of the holes that were their eyes.--aCoK page 731. This is not a description of how the rest looked at the time of death.

That is one close match in how Robert looked at death; one match in how Ned looked at death; and one non-match for how the rest looked at death.

Yeah, I'm sure some people can argue that a woman can lose weight quickly after birth, but come on. GRRM chose her to be slim in the dream, he's not going to write a chapter about her careful diet and Zumba.

The dream did not give the angle Theon viewed Lyanna from. It also did not include the size of the white gown. A woman with an obscured torso (by angle of the observer or loose fitting clothing), slim face, slim arms, and slim legs... can accurately be described as "slim."

Why would anybody need her to lose weight after pregnancy when the picture given is incomplete?

GRRM chose for her to wear a white dress in the dream. Who wears a white dress for childbirth, or if someone is there, who dresses a woman in white for childbirth? And no, white is not a wedding dress color in the books.

It was not a white dress.... it was a white gown.

Gown

1. A long loose flowing garment, such as a robe or nightgown.

2. A long, usually formal dress for a woman.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/gown

Who wears a long loose flowing garnet such as a robe or a nightgown to childbirth?

That would be most everybody.... if one is available.

Who dresses a woman in white for childbirth?

Somebody with a white gown

Add in her tears of blood. We have another woman who appears to cry tears of blood. Cat. She scratches at her eyes when her son is killed.

Cat was scratching her face not her eyes....

but we do have...

The white tears ran with the red ones until her face was torn and tattered--aSoS BG page 133

Red tears and tears of blood are remarkably similar..... The red come from the death of a child. Nice pick up.

Add in the multiple (broken) promises. If Lyanna is buried in the crypts and Ned brought up Jon safely and secretly, what's missing from this picture?

The blood and broken promises (plural) is remarkably to the "blood and roses" and "promise me"; "Lyanna in her bed of blood" and "I promise"; " "Promise me" "from her bed of blood"

You have eliminated 2 possibilities for the broken promises Ned made to Lyanna... Never fear there are more possibilities.

Cumulatively, there are far, far more questions between the lines than can be answered by the accepted RLJ scenario.

The current scenario does leave many questions unanswered....Many of the answers given fail to address the questions... others simply invent facts as needed for support.

Rather than point to flaws in the current scenario, we could attempt to reach a conclusion based on evaluation of all the material presented in an accurate and fair and reasonable manner. Poking holes in somebody's ideas and scenarios is far too easy and completely non productive.

[SFDanny]

Please do a quick google search for "white hospital gown" and you may be surprised how many hits you will get.

[Sly Wren]

I'm amazed that nobody has yet borrowed the statistical text analysis tools created by the Fomenko nuts or the letter-array search tools created by the Bible Code nut to try to prove anything in ASoIaF.

HA! Like the guy who took the Bible Code process, applied it to Moby Dick, and found "predictions" for presidential assassinations and various other things. Made the Bible Code guys furious.

We've got enough on our plates just with the vagueness of the PtwP stuff. Martin's novels even longer than Melville's. Please, pleas--no one-size-fits-all search codes. What we've got is messy enough.

[The Twinslayer]

Please do a quick google search for "white hospital gown" and you may be surprised how many hits you will get.

GRRM seems to use "dress" and "gown" interchangeably. In AGOT, Cersei gives Sansa a white dress to mark her betrothal to Joffrey Barratheon. Later, Arya stains it with a fruit. Later still, Sansa dyes it black and refers to it as a "gown."

The Lyanna in Theon's vision may be wearing her Barratheon betrothal gown.

[WeaselPie]

Please do a quick google search for "white hospital gown" and you may be surprised how many hits you will get.

I failed to find any pictures taken at Westerosi General Hospital.

[Sly Wren]

I failed to find any pictures taken at Westerosi General Hospital.

Qyburn keeps them for research purposes--not available to the public. Privileged.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

It's not just an English "ear" (or eye?). The fact that Lyanna died is already established, right before the "dead and black" part. Saying that Lyanna died and her palm was dead is saying the same thing twice, it doesn't bring anything new, but it does bring new, specific information about the rose petals.

Oh, and in Czech, the ambiguity is maintained, because the plural nominative of masculine adjectives happens to have the same ending as singular genitive of feminine :-)

That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain. (Damphair, AFFC)

What I am saying is that you cannot just run with thematic imagery while ignoring the way it is worded, especially if the author coins and uses a "catchphrase". Wording is very important, and if an author uses some specific wording, it's because s/he has given it a specific meaning.

Re: the promises:

"PromiseS as she lay dying" indeed means that she extracted more than one promise from Ned on her deathbed. The thing is, we don't know how much time passed between the fight and her passing, how much time she and Ned had together. He could have sat at her bedside for hours, listening to her explanations of what had transpired between her and Rhaegar, and promising various things as they came up, such as bringing her home. The promise which keeps haunting him, though, is the one that she asked with her last breath, the one after which she smiled and fear left her eyes, is echoed here:

He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.

and here:

I will tell him, child, and I promise you, Barra shall not go wanting.

She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snows face in front of him

Now, what is it that Sansa was pleading? "Don't let them do it, don't let them hurt Lady, she is innocent" , and what did he promise the girl? "I'll see to your child's wellbeing" (paraphrasing). The promises of protecting an innocent and taking care of him, the promises that Ned has kept, at the cost of betraying his friend and king, and hurting both his wife and Jon by his silence because the truth could not be revealed and Ned doesn't lie unless he absolutely has to.

The promises that were broken never appear until the time in the Black Cells, at which moment Ned is unable to keep the promise to Barra's mother and to Robert (to take care of his children), but it is some urgent talk to Jon that he thinks about and ponders whether he might confide some information to a letter, and then we have Bran's dream about Ned's spirit in the crypts who tells something about Jon. In other words, Ned needed to relay some information to Jon and was unable to, hence it comes that the broken promise(s) were to reveal something to Jon, and it was very private. The one thing that Ned never told Jon was the identity of his mother.

It's not a general time frame, it is rather specific - a man who goes nope nope nope on times and distances, pinned Jon's birth within a single month. That reveals an awful lot of thought and planning given to the event.

It don't see it making her out to be dead twice. A palm can be dead and black apart from the spirit being dead. Actually, let me insert the quote here.

[...] how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black.

She is just dying at that moment, so it is not redundant to say her palm is dead. I'm not saying this necessarily points to her being some wightified coldhanded woman, but the imagery is there and is quite remarkable: Blue eyes of death and a black hand.

As to the timeline, Martin did not pin down Jon's birth to a single month. He says...

probably closer to eight or nine months or thereabouts

'probably', 'thereabouts' and 'closer' to 8 or 9. Not definitive at all. Also, none of this is in the book series.

All I'm saying here is Jon's birth is still a mystery. There is no exact date given to us the readers.

And another quote from the same SSM

I do intend to publish a timeline as an appendix in one or other of the later volumes, but even when I do, I am not certain I'm going to start detailing things down to months and days. With such a huge cast of characters, just keeping track of the =years= drives me half mad sometimes.