R+L=J v.145

[UnmaskedLurker]

I can check profiles but not content.

Yeah, search functionality does not seem to be back -- but most of the other features seem to have returned.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I can check profiles but not content.

Same here :)

Yeah, search functionality does not seem to be back -- but most of the other features seem to have returned.

"My content" had been back yesterday.. It seems it disappeared again somewhere in the last hours.. :( A, perhaps a few more days..

[J. Stargaryen]

Same here :)

"My content" had been back yesterday.. It seems it disappeared again somewhere in the last hours.. :( A, perhaps a few more days..

Luckily I was able to locate an exchange with Weasel Pie that I had been looking for, before the content functionality disappeared again.

[SFDanny]

The world book gives us the flight was 2 weeks before the sack.

If Darry leaves for the Trident immediately after Aerys's rape of Rhaella (the same day Chelsted is roasted alive,) then there is some time between that date and when Darry and Rhaegar's host reaches the Trident, and even more than that before the news of the battle's outcome reaches King's Landing. It is the arrival of the news of the Trident that triggers the flight to Dragonstone. Note that Rossart could have been appointed Hand of the King anytime after Chelsted's death. If we accept his tenure as a hard two weeks and not an approximation, then the sack could be much closer in time to the flight than two weeks. The World Book ties the appointment of Rossart to Chelsted death, but does not tell us how closely they are related. It does not necessarily tie the appointment to after the flight. Could have happened before the flight, could have happened after. Only by tying the two events together and maintaining the fortnight as exact do we get the flight taking place two weeks exactly before the sack. In short, does the "now" mean after Chelsted is burned, or does it refer to the event the sentence before - the flight. If we read it in the former way we have anywhere from less than two weeks to more than two weeks, but not much more. Only by reading it with the "now" referring not to after Chelsted's death, but to immediately after the time of the flight and to a "fortnight" meaning exactly 14 days instead of approximately that, do you get your calculation. You could be right, but I doubt it.

[WeaselPie]

OMG, Lyanna's Promise was to "Kill the Boy"

Well hell. I love this, can't deny it. Sudden lightbulb moments are often spectacular!

[IceFire125]

Well hell. I love this, can't deny it. Sudden lightbulb moments are often spectacular!

Of course it would, for R+L=J deniers, it makes perfect sense. Anything to cast doubt and cast down Jon

Especially, it would make perfect sense for Ned in the black cells remembering Jon, filled with sorrow and shame, to wish that he could speak with him again, telling him...

I should've killed you, your Mom told me to, she made me promise, but I had to break it. Now I'm feel ashamed that I didn't kill you.

Yup, perfect narrative sense.

[WeaselPie]

Of course it would, for R+L=J deniers, it makes perfect sense. Anything to cast doubt and cast down Jon

Especially, it would make perfect sense for Ned in the black cells remembering Jon, filled with sorrow and shame, to wish that he could speak with him again, telling him...

I should've killed you, your Mom told me to, she made me promise, but I had to break it. Now I'm feel ashamed that I didn't kill you.

Yup, perfect narrative sense.

I never cast down Jon. I have confidence GRRM will make him much more interesting.

"The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him . . . pain shot through his broken leg, beneath the filthy grey plaster of his cast."

Ned never actually finishes the thought, does he? Shame and sorrow.

If you argue that Ned's shame comes from not fulfilling a promise to Lyanna, I might be able to partially agree. Ned could feel shame about Jon for other reasons. But... don't put words in my mouth.

ATS's comment shows a marked ability to think outside of a rigid box, as he usually does, and I applaud it.

[The Twinslayer]

I never cast down Jon. I have confidence GRRM will make him much more interesting.

"The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him . . . pain shot through his broken leg, beneath the filthy grey plaster of his cast."

Ned never actually finishes the thought, does he? Shame and sorrow.

If you argue that Ned's shame comes from not fulfilling a promise to Lyanna, I might be able to partially agree. Ned could feel shame about Jon for other reasons. But... don't put words in my mouth.

ATS's comment shows a marked ability to think outside of a rigid box, as he usually does, and I applaud it.

That's not it. Ned kept the promises he made to Lyanna:

He thought of the promises he'd made Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he had paid to keep them.

His feelings of shame about Jon probably have to do with failing to fulfill an obligation he felt toward Jon: to tell Jon who his mother is or was. But if that is what it is, it isn't because of any promise he made to Lyanna.

The other option is that he feels shame about having (or pretending to have) a bastard, since that is the only stain on his honor that anyone knows about. And Cersei has just taunted him about it:

"How dare you play the noble lord with me! What do you take me for? You've a bastard of your own, I've seen him. Who was the mother, I wonder? Some Dornish peasant you raped while her holdfast burned? A whore? Or was it the grieving sister, the Lady Ashara? She threw herself into the sea, I'm told. Why was that? For the brother you slew, or the child you stole? Tell me, my honorable Lord Eddard, how are you any different from Robert, or me, or Jaime?"

[Ygrain]

Of course it would, for R+L=J deniers, it makes perfect sense. Anything to cast doubt and cast down Jon

Especially, it would make perfect sense for Ned in the black cells remembering Jon, filled with sorrow and shame, to wish that he could speak with him again, telling him...

I should've killed you, your Mom told me to, she made me promise, but I had to break it. Now I'm feel ashamed that I didn't kill you.

Yup, perfect narrative sense.

But, but, it's out of the box thinking! A totally new idea!

Perhaps GRRM is into Assassin's Creed, there was indeed an "I should have killed you long ago" moment.

[WeaselPie]

That's not it. Ned kept the promises he made to Lyanna:

His feelings of shame about Jon probably have to do with failing to fulfill an obligation he felt toward Jon: to tell Jon who his mother is or was. But if that is what it is, it isn't because of any promise he made to Lyanna.

The other option is that he feels shame about having (or pretending to have) a bastard, since that is the only stain on his honor that anyone knows about. And Cersei has just taunted him about it:

Did he?

"When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises."

ETA actually IceFire should answer about the Shame thing because he/she brought it up.

[stateofdissipation]

If Darry leaves for the Trident immediately after Aerys's rape of Rhaella (the same day Chelsted is roasted alive,) then there is some time between that date and when Darry and Rhaegar's host reaches the Trident, and even more than that before the news of the battle's outcome reaches King's Landing. It is the arrival of the news of the Trident that triggers the flight to Dragonstone. Note that Rossart could have been appointed Hand of the King anytime after Chelsted's death. If we accept his tenure as a hard two weeks and not an approximation, then the sack could be much closer in time to the flight than two weeks. The World Book ties the appointment of Rossart to Chelsted death, but does not tell us how closely they are related. It does not necessarily tie the appointment to after the flight. Could have happened before the flight, could have happened after. Only by tying the two events together and maintaining the fortnight as exact do we get the flight taking place two weeks exactly before the sack. In short, does the "now" mean after Chelsted is burned, or does it refer to the event the sentence before - the flight. If we read it in the former way we have anywhere from less than two weeks to more than two weeks, but not much more. Only by reading it with the "now" referring not to after Chelsted's death, but to immediately after the time of the flight and to a "fortnight" meaning exactly 14 days instead of approximately that, do you get your calculation. You could be right, but I doubt it.

If Darry leaves for the Trident immediately after Aerys's rape of Rhaella (the same day Chelsted is roasted alive,)

We have the rape of Rhaella after the burning of Chelstead. Sex does not always equal pregnancy.

then there is some time between that date and when Darry and Rhaegar's host reaches the Trident, and even more than that before the news of the battle's outcome reaches King's Landing.

This is making it more difficult to assert that Rhaella became pregnant following the burning of Chelstead.

If you place Chelstead's burning at weeks before Rhaella's flight you exclude that encounter as the one that produced Dany.

9 months after Rhaella's flight she gave birth to Dany.

It is the arrival of the news of the Trident that triggers the flight to Dragonstone. Note that Rossart could have been appointed Hand of the King anytime after Chelsted's death.

From the world book we have the following:

Birds flew and couriers raced to bear word of the victory at the Ruby Ford. When the news reached the Red Keep, it was said that Aerys cursed the Dornish, certain that Lewyn had betrayed Rhaegar. He sent his pregnant queen, Rhaella, and his younger son and new heir, Viserys, away to Dragonstone, but Princess Elia was forced to remain in King's Landing with Rhaegar's children as a hostage against Dorne. Having burned his previous Hand, Lord Chelsted, alive for bad counsel during the war, Aerys now appointed another to the position: the alchemist Rossart a man of low birth, with little to recommend him but his flames and trickery.

Now we have Rossart appointed and Rhaella's flight after the news reached the Red Keep.

If we accept his tenure as a hard two weeks and not an approximation, then the sack could be much closer in time to the flight than two weeks.

or not...

The World Book ties the appointment of Rossart to Chelsted death, but does not tell us how closely they are related.

---Having burned his previous Hand, Lord Chelsted, alive for bad counsel during the war,--- the comma sets this phrase apart as an introductory element to the sentence--- Aerys now appointed another to the position: the alchemist Rossarta man of low birth, with little to recommend him but his flames and trickery.--- The sentence is part of the paragraph covering events after the defeat on the Trident.

If "Having----trickery" refers to a time before the defeat on the Trident, then the sentence is part of another paragraph. As it is not part of a new paragraph, Rossart's appointment is after the battle on the Trident.

A paragraph is a section of text, usually consisting of several sentences, which addresses a particular topic or aspect of a subject. A paragraph may occasionally be one sentence - or even one word long - to make a particular effect.

One way to decide if a paragraph is needed is to consider if there is a change in time or place in the passage, or if different people are introduced.

http://www.educationscotland.gov.uk/knowledgeoflanguage/english/grammarandsyntax/paragraphs/

It does not necessarily tie the appointment to after the flight. Could have happened before the flight, could have happened after.

We are given the Rhaella's flight, Elia remaining hostage, and Rossart's appointment happen when the news of the defeat at the Trident.reaches the Red Keep--

If you wish to speculate as to which came first and the time between the events you are free to do so.

Only by tying the two events together

The world book does that..

and maintaining the fortnight as exact

The text does that

do we get the flight taking place two weeks exactly before the sack.

the world book and the text have the flight at two weeks before the sack.

In short, does the "now" mean after Chelsted is burned,

If it is part of an independent paragraph yes. As it is not, it does not. When Chelstead was roasted is a different time from the rest of the paragraph. If "now" does not refer back to the time of the rest of the paragraph then the sentence is a new paragraph.

or does it refer to the event the sentence before - the flight.

It refers to---When the news reached the Red Keep because "now" is part of the same paragraph.

If we read it in the former way we have anywhere from less than two weeks to more than two weeks, but not much more.

To do so requires the addition of a paragraph break into the text...

Only by reading it with the "now" referring not to after Chelsted's death, but to immediately after the time of the flight

As it is written, adding or subtracting nothing---

If we switch your "after" for the textual "when"

and if we switch your "time of the flight" for "When the news reached the Red Keep" rather than the time of the flight, --- alternatively for: Aerys cursed the Dornish, certain that Lewyn had betrayed Rhaegar. He sent his pregnant queen, Rhaella, and his younger son and new heir, Viserys, away to Dragonstone, but Princess Elia was forced to remain in King's Landing with Rhaegar's children as a hostage against Dorne.

and to a "fortnight" meaning exactly 14 days instead of approximately that, do you get your calculation.

a fortnight means exactly 14 days--- not approximately...

fortnight : a period of 14 days : two weeks

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fortnight

You could be right, but I doubt it.

I could be forced to adjust the calculation with new or additional information. Based on what was given and how it was given to date it is accurate.

In the timeline "K" (the sack of king's lanidng) covered thirty days from the end of the 11th month of the conflict to the 13th month of the conflict and "D" (Dany*s birth) started the 21st month of the conflict. That is a 60 day buffer zone for the sack to Dany's birth. ---The timeline is by month rather than by week. The time between the Trident and the sack has no impact on the timeline.

The variables in the timeline should encompass these slight variations. It does not attempt to establish dates but a range of possible dates.

[The Twinslayer]

Did he?

"When he slept, he dreamed: dark disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises."

ETA actually IceFire should answer about the Shame thing because he/she brought it up.

Yes, look at Post 276. The "disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises" don't have anything to do with the promises Ned made to Lyanna as she lay dying, since Ned says that he kept those promises. They may not have anything to do with Lyanna or Jon, and they may not even be promises made by Ned.

Without repeating too much, they could be things like Ned's promise to Cersei, which he broke, that he would tell Robert that Joffrey was not of the Barratheon blood. Or his promise to Robert to look after the ones that were Robert's blood: Barra, Mya and Gendry.

If it is about Lyanna, it could be her broken betrothal to Robert, which triggered the death of Rickard and Brandon, and which opened the way for Robert to marry Cersei, and led to Ned sitting in a dungeon. Etc.

[The Twinslayer]

9 months after Rhaella's flight she gave birth to Dany.

Maybe, but maybe not. Viserys told her this story and made it sound like their parents conceived her during a tragic and romantic parting the night Rhaella fled to Dragonstone, just after Rhaegar's tragic and romantic death:

"Viserys had been a boy of eight when they fled King's Landing to escape the advancing armies of the Usurper, but Daenerys had been only a quickening in their mother's womb.

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King's Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper's dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father's throat with a golden sword.

She had been born on Dragonstone nine moons after their flight . . ."

Jaime tells a very different story (no romance between Aerys and Rhaella, no "midnight flight," Dany conceived while Rhaegar was busy marshalling the army that he would later take to the Trident instead of on the night Rhaella left King's Landing).

If Jaime is right, Dany was born several weeks, and possibly even several months, earlier than she thinks she was, in relation to the timing of Rhaella's flight to Dragonstone.

[stateofdissipation]

Maybe, but maybe not. Viserys told her this story and made it sound like their parents conceived her during a tragic and romantic parting the night Rhaella fled to Dragonstone, just after Rhaegar's tragic and romantic death:

"Viserys had been a boy of eight when they fled King's Landing to escape the advancing armies of the Usurper, but Daenerys had been only a quickening in their mother's womb.

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told her the stories. The midnight flight to Dragonstone, moonlight shimmering on the ship's black sails. Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved. The sack of King's Landing by the ones Viserys called the Usurper's dogs, the lords Lannister and Stark. Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar's heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. The polished skulls of the last dragons staring down sightlessly from the walls of the throne room while the Kingslayer opened Father's throat with a golden sword.

She had been born on Dragonstone nine moons after their flight . . ."

Jaime tells a very different story (no romance between Aerys and Rhaella, no "midnight flight," Dany conceived while Rhaegar was busy marshalling the army that he would later take to the Trident instead of on the night Rhaella left King's Landing).

If Jaime is right, Dany was born several weeks, and possibly even several months, earlier than she thinks she was, in relation to the timing of Rhaella's flight to Dragonstone.

Maybe, but maybe not. Viserys told her this story and made it sound like their parents conceived her during a tragic and romantic parting the night Rhaella fled to Dragonstone, just after Rhaegar's tragic and romantic death:

aGoT chapter 3 page 27 first paragraph is from stories Viserys told.. Paragraphs two and three do not have an assigned source.

Paragraph two has Dany's date of birth.--It does not contain Visery's tale of "midnight flight:"

Jaime tells a very different story (no romance between Aerys and Rhaella, no "midnight flight,"

The romance in the tale Viserys told was Rhaegar and the woman he loved. Neither has a Aerys and Rhaella romance----Jamie's time of the departure does not match Viserys time of departure.

Jamie's time of departure does not conflict with the "flight" from paragraph 2.

Dany conceived while Rhaegar was busy marshalling the army that he would later take to the Trident instead of on the night Rhaella left King's Landing).

Jamie and Jonthor stand outside the door while Aerys rapes Rhaella after the burning of Chelstead.

No version includes Dany's conception. Visery's version does not have sex. Jamie's version has rape but no mention of conception.

If Jaime is right,

and we insert conception into Jamie's memory of the event after Chelstead's burning.

Dany was born several weeks, and possibly even several months, earlier than she thinks she was, in relation to the timing of Rhaella's flight to Dragonstone.

Paragraph 2 page 27 chapter 3 aGoT..... does not attribute the timing of Dany's birth to her thoughts and it is explicitly not part of her memory.

A similar passage occurs in an early Ned chapter ---the narrator describes Robert and Rhaegar battling on the trident.... the story ends when Ned arrives on the scene....

The POV technique largely limits the narrator to the perspective of the POV character... largely but not completely. Dany's birth is one of the "not completely" moments,

[The Twinslayer]

Maybe, but maybe not. Viserys told her this story and made it sound like their parents conceived her during a tragic and romantic parting the night Rhaella fled to Dragonstone, just after Rhaegar's tragic and romantic death:

aGoT chapter 3 page 27 first paragraph is from stories Viserys told.. Paragraphs two and three do not have an assigned source.

Paragraph two has Dany's date of birth.--It does not contain Visery's tale of "midnight flight:"

Jaime tells a very different story (no romance between Aerys and Rhaella, no "midnight flight,"

The romance in the tale Viserys told was Rhaegar and the woman he loved. Neither has a Aerys and Rhaella romance----Jamie's time of the departure does not match Viserys time of departure.

Jamie's time of departure does not conflict with the "flight" from paragraph 2.

Dany conceived while Rhaegar was busy marshalling the army that he would later take to the Trident instead of on the night Rhaella left King's Landing).

Jamie and Jonthor stand outside the door while Aerys rapes Rhaella after the burning of Chelstead.

No version includes Dany's conception. Visery's version does not have sex. Jamie's version has rape but no mention of conception.

If Jaime is right,

and we insert conception into Jamie's memory of the event after Chelstead's burning.

Dany was born several weeks, and possibly even several months, earlier than she thinks she was, in relation to the timing of Rhaella's flight to Dragonstone.

Paragraph 2 page 27 chapter 3 aGoT..... does not attribute the timing of Dany's birth to her thoughts and it is explicitly not part of her memory.

A similar passage occurs in an early Ned chapter ---the narrator describes Robert and Rhaegar battling on the trident.... the story ends when Ned arrives on the scene....

The POV technique largely limits the narrator to the perspective of the POV character... largely but not completely. Dany's birth is one of the "not completely" moments,

Dany's statement that she was born 9 moons after their flight does come from what she was told, and Viserys was one of the people who told her. Prior to what you describe as paragraph one, we get:

"Our land," he called it. "Ours by blood right, taken from us by treachery, but ours still, ours forever. You do not steal from the dragon, oh, no. The dragon remembers."

Then: "And perhaps the dragon did remember, but Dany could not. She had never seen this land her brother said was theirs, this realm beyond the narrow sea. These places he talked of. . . "

Then: "She had been born on Dragonstone nine moons after their flight, while a raging summer storm threatened to rip the island fastness apart. They said that storm was terrible."

An omniscient narrator would not use the phrase "They said." Those are Dany's thoughts, based on what she has been told. And what she is told includes the date of her conception. When Viserys told her she was born nine moons after their midnight flight to Dragonstone, that was another way of saying that her parents had a tryst that resulted in her conception the very night they left.

Admittedly, Jaime does not explicitly say that she was conceived the night Chelsted burned, but it is heavily implied, because Jaime was with Aerys night and day from the time Rhaegar left until the minute Aerys died ("He wanted me where he could watch me, day and night. So I heard it all.") He also says that Aerys and Rhaella lived apart except that whenever Aerys burned someone, Rhaella had "a visitor in the night." Then he doesn't mention anyone being burned after Chelsted, and even though he was with Aerys day and night, he never saw Rhaella again until the morning (not night) she left for Dragonstone.

So it is a fair conclusion that Dany was conceived right after Chelsted died, and that she was born less than 8 months after the Sack.

[Mother of Dragons]

Of course it would, for R+L=J deniers, it makes perfect sense. Anything to cast doubt and cast down Jon

Especially, it would make perfect sense for Ned in the black cells remembering Jon, filled with sorrow and shame, to wish that he could speak with him again, telling him...

I should've killed you, your Mom told me to, she made me promise, but I had to break it. Now I'm feel ashamed that I didn't kill you.

Yup, perfect narrative sense.

I have a question: why do you change the font like that when you address certain posters? I'm being sincere. Are you trying to mock them, or is it some other reason? Maybe you don't mean it to be, but it comes off that way.

[Sly Wren]

Yes, look at Post 276. The "disturbing dreams of blood and broken promises" don't have anything to do with the promises Ned made to Lyanna as she lay dying, since Ned says that he kept those promises. They may not have anything to do with Lyanna or Jon, and they may not even be promises made by Ned.

Without repeating too much, they could be things like Ned's promise to Cersei, which he broke, that he would tell Robert that Joffrey was not of the Barratheon blood. Or his promise to Robert to look after the ones that were Robert's blood: Barra, Mya and Gendry.

If it is about Lyanna, it could be her broken betrothal to Robert, which triggered the death of Rickard and Brandon, and which opened the way for Robert to marry Cersei, and led to Ned sitting in a dungeon. Etc.

Agreed they could be about other things, but can't see anything to preclude their being about Lyanna.

Ned says he paid a price to keep the promises, then dreams of blood (comes up a few times in his memories/dreams of Lya) and broken promises. If he was keeping the promises, if the "keeping" required ongoing effort, and now something has happened to prevent him from continuing--he could have broken them. Plus, back to the blood--shows up in his dreams with Lya--not unlikely that the broken promises are about her.

Bottom line: what the promises were and how well each and all were kept has not been clarified yet. Ned's dream of blood and broken promises could be about Lya--or not.

[stateofdissipation]

Dany's statement that she was born 9 moons after their flight does come from what she was told, and Viserys was one of the people who told her. Prior to what you describe as paragraph one, we get:

"Our land," he called it. "Ours by blood right, taken from us by treachery, but ours still, ours forever. You do not steal from the dragon, oh, no. The dragon remembers."

Then: "And perhaps the dragon did remember, but Dany could not. She had never seen this land her brother said was theirs, this realm beyond the narrow sea. These places he talked of. . . "

Then: "She had been born on Dragonstone nine moons after their flight, while a raging summer storm threatened to rip the island fastness apart. They said that storm was terrible."

An omniscient narrator would not use the phrase "They said." Those are Dany's thoughts, based on what she has been told. And what she is told includes the date of her conception. When Viserys told her she was born nine moons after their midnight flight to Dragonstone, that was another way of saying that her parents had a tryst that resulted in her conception the very night they left.

Admittedly, Jaime does not explicitly say that she was conceived the night Chelsted burned, but it is heavily implied, because Jaime was with Aerys night and day from the time Rhaegar left until the minute Aerys died ("He wanted me where he could watch me, day and night. So I heard it all.") He also says that Aerys and Rhaella lived apart except that whenever Aerys burned someone, Rhaella had "a visitor in the night." Then he doesn't mention anyone being burned after Chelsted, and even though he was with Aerys day and night, he never saw Rhaella again until the morning (not night) she left for Dragonstone.

So it is a fair conclusion that Dany was conceived right after Chelsted died, and that she was born less than 8 months after the Sack.

Dany's statement

Dany calls herself "she"? NO not Dany's statement

that she was born 9 moons after their flight does come from what she was told, and Viserys was one of the people who told her.

The stories Viserys told her so often.... ended in the previous paragraph....

Prior to what you describe as paragraph one, we get:

Then: "And perhaps the dragon did remember, but Dany could not. She had never seen this land her brother said was theirs, this realm beyond the narrow sea. These places he talked of. . . "

Then

Yet sometimes Dany would picture the way it had been, so often had her brother told the stories....---totalling 5--

New paragraph in a different style with a completely different story structure---

Then: "She had been born on Dragonstone nine moons after their flight, while a raging summer storm threatened to rip the island fastness apart. They said that storm was terrible."

An omniscient narrator would not use the phrase "They said."

The narrator in aSoIaF is third person limited omniscient.... but either is free to use "they said" if it is the source of the information is what "they said"

Those are Dany's thoughts, based on what she has been told.

You have a stronger case for this than you have for what follows...Now for the sake of argument... accept that this is what Dany was thinking based on what "they said".... now you must discredit: Darry, four loyal men, and a wet nurse....

And what she is told includes the date of her conception.

Where was it that Viserys, Darry, four loyal men, and the wet nurse---- or any combination told Dany about Aerys raping Rhaella?

When Viserys told her she was born nine moons after their midnight flight to Dragonstone,

Except we do not having Viserys telling her that...

that was another way of saying that her parents had a tryst that resulted in her conception the very night they left.

Only in the text, Viserys did not tell her of the first part. The source of the information is the unnamed "they".... or the narrator....

Admittedly, Jaime does not explicitly say that she was conceived the night Chelsted burned,

OK

but it is heavily implied,

Lets see....

because Jaime was with Aerys night and day from the time Rhaegar left until the minute Aerys died ("He wanted me where he could watch me, day and night. So I heard it all.")

---Was Jamie speaking of Aerys's sex life? I believe he was speaking of the wildfire plot....

There are examples of Jamie being out of Aerys's sight.... Like when Jamie begged Rhaegar to go to battle and when Jamie changed to his golden armor.... and so on

He also says that Aerys and Rhaella lived apart except that whenever Aerys burned someone, Rhaella had "a visitor in the night."

Whenever Aerys burned a man Rhaella would have a visitor that night... yes they lived apart...

However to state that Aerys only raped Rhaella after burning.... is not supported.

Then he doesn't mention anyone being burned after Chelsted, and even though he was with Aerys day and night, he never saw Rhaella again until the morning (not night) she left for Dragonstone.

Except when he was not....

So it is a fair conclusion that Dany was conceived right after Chelsted died, and that she was born less than 8 months after the Sack.

If you insert "only" into the text--

Only when Aerys burned a man Rhaella would have a visitor that night....

and discount the accounts of "they" or the narrator regarding the date of Dany's birth.

Now back to the timeline....

Pushing Dany's date of birth back a month does not impact the timeline.... The 3 month window for Jon's birth falls inside the 8-9 months or thereabouts... and Dany's birth--at either 8 or 9 months after the sack....

If we push Dany's birth date back.... we push RLJ birth date back..... in doing so we have Ned one month further from Lyanna at birth. The earliest possible date for Jon's birth date would be 2 months before the sack....

[BearQueen87]

OMG, Lyanna's Promise was to "Kill the Boy"

And you got that how...?

I just got back from a weekend vacation but I see we're doing math. How fun

[stateofdissipation]

Agreed they could be about other things, but can't see anything to preclude their being about Lyanna.

Ned says he paid a price to keep the promises, then dreams of blood (comes up a few times in his memories/dreams of Lya) and broken promises. If he was keeping the promises, if the "keeping" required ongoing effort, and now something has happened to prevent him from continuing--he could have broken them. Plus, back to the blood--shows up in his dreams with Lya--not unlikely that the broken promises are about her.

Bottom line: what the promises were and how well each and all were kept has not been clarified yet. Ned's dream of blood and broken promises could be about Lya--or not.

Ned says he paid a price to keep the promises

"To keep" does not equal keeping or kept.... "to keep them" is an infinitive adjective modifying "price." It is not a verb.

I bought a ticket to go to New York....

I am not going to New York in the sentence. I have not gone to New York in the sentence...

then dreams of blood (comes up a few times in his memories/dreams of Lya) and broken promises.

Ned can both pay a price to keep a promise and break the promise.

I paid the price to go to New York

I missed the plane and did not make it.

I was never going to New York

I never went to New York....

But i paid the price to go to New York

If he was keeping the promises, if the "keeping" required ongoing effort, and now something has happened to prevent him from continuing--he could have broken them. Plus, back to the blood--shows up in his dreams with Lya--not unlikely that the broken promises are about her.

Ned's dreams and thoughts including "blood" and "promise" are tied to Lyanna.

Blood and broken promises are tied to Lyanna--- is far from a stretch of reasoning.

Bottom line: what the promises were and how well each and all were kept has not been clarified yet. Ned's dream of blood and broken promises could be about Lya--or not.

More interesting would be how they were broken....