Which gods are real / false?

[Methuselah]

Oops. multi posted by mistake.

[Methuselah]

Oops. multi posted by mistake.

[Consigliere]

And here we go again... With the risk of sounding like Uncle Vernon, there are no such thing as real and false deities.

This.

As Martin himself pointed out:

There are several competing religions in this series now. Should we be wondering if some are more true than others? In a world with magic, is religion just magic with an extra layer of mythos?

Well, the readers are certainly free to wonder about the validity of these religions, the truth of these religions, and the teachings of these religions. I'm a little leery of the word "true" — whether any of these religions are more true than others. I mean, look at the analogue of our real world. We have many religions too. Are some of them more true than others? I don't think any gods are likely to be showing up in Westeros, any more than they already do. We're not going to have one appearing, deus ex machina, to affect the outcomes of things, no matter how hard anyone prays. So the relation between the religions and the various magics that some people have here is something that the reader can try to puzzle out.

[Khorkalba]

Even in a world of magic, the way in which Beric Dondarrion is resurrected doesn't make sense without some divine intervention, unless Thoros of Myr is a complete fraud.

[Ser Hightower]

Even in a world of magic, the way in which Beric Dondarrion is resurrected doesn't make sense without some divine intervention, unless Thoros of Myr is a complete fraud.

This. Thoros didn't perform any ritual and there was definitely no one sacrificed for Beric's resurrection. You can also argue that simply "kissing" life into Catelyn to create Lady Stoneheart was divine as well, and not magical. I guess we'll gather more evidence when/if Jon is resurrected.

[pigpiginsunspear]

We haven't really seen a "miracle" by the seven. At least I cannot think of one. I started a thread about the seven being the most suspect. I don't remember if folks pointed to anything supernatural coming from the seven.

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

This. Thoros didn't perform any ritual and there was definitely no one sacrificed for Beric's resurrection. You can also argue that simply "kissing" life into Catelyn to create Lady Stoneheart was divine as well, and not magical. I guess we'll gather more evidence when/if Jon is resurrected.

Thoros actually did perform a ritual. It was one he had performed before, as a red priest, though without the resurrection. It was some form of burial ritual, I think. A farewell to the dead. We also know that magic has slowly been returning to the world, but that it was gone, more or less.

My view of the ritual was that it was some form of magic that, over time with the lessening of magic, stopped working and thus became something that they did, not in order to resurrect, but as part of the burial.

Anyway, my view on the ritual is very theoretical, but the point of this post is to say that Thoros didn't simply pray for Beric's life, there was indeed a ritual.

[Greg B]

Thoros actually did perform a ritual. It was one he had performed before, as a red priest, though without the resurrection. It was some form of burial ritual, I think. A farewell to the dead. We also know that magic has slowly been returning to the world, but that it was gone, more or less.

My view of the ritual was that it was some form of magic that, over time with the lessening of magic, stopped working and thus became something that they did, not in order to resurrect, but as part of the burial.

Anyway, my view on the ritual is very theoretical, but the point of this post is to say that Thoros didn't simply pray for Beric's life, there was indeed a ritual.

Indeed.

I filled my mouth with fire and breathed the flames inside him, down his throat to lungs and heart and soul. The last kiss it is called, and many a time I saw the old priests bestow it on the Lord’s servants as they died. I had given it a time or two myself, as all priests must. But never before had I felt a dead man shudder as the fire filled him, nor seen his eyes come open.

Thoros certainly believes it's divine magic, but there's no reason we must.

[BalerionTheCat]

I believe there are gods. Are they sentient entity, in some opposition to dominate World and men, or just "sources of power", the magicians can tap from? I would believe the former.OK, some gods could be fake, only invention from the priests of some obscure cult. And some stuff could be true magic, by the magician, without god intervention.

But I would not explain otherwise Dondarrion multiple resurrections and Stoneheart. IMO, Thoros is not a priest or magician able to resurrect someone. The whole story: the star (and or stone) fallen from the sky, the Long Nights, all the events following a "plan" 8,000 years old... All this suggests the Will of something, influencing events on a scale much larger than any human can control.

IMHO, GRRM people are humans much like us. With genes (blood) allowing limited magical abilities (warging, binding with dragons, greenseer, greater size ...). But not much more. And there would be really magical creatures (dragons, Others, and in a lesser extent the CotF). And then creatures much more magical, godlike like R'hllor.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

All fake.

R'hllor cannot be the real god due his priests' magic powers because TWOIAF tells priests of Black Goat, Bakkalon and Lion of Night also practice magic in Asshai.

[Stag_legion]

None of them will ever be proven to be real or not in the books, I think GRRM said something like that in an interview. All we know for certain is that magic is real and many think that supports the existence of gods in the universe.

[falcotron]

So if you say there's no gods then do you also say there's no prophecies? So no Azor Ahai, no tPwwP? Isn't Azor Ahai technically sent by R'hllor?

Yes, Azor Ahai was sent by R'hllor. And the Last Hero was sent by the Old Gods. And there's a Rhoynar hero who was sent by Old Mother Rhoyne. And Presumably Hyrkoon, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser were sent by different gods. And yet, somehow, they all did the same thing.

But what about the prophecy of Azor Ahai Reborn? Well, what about the Prince that was Promised? Once again, two different prophecies that credit different gods with the same hero. I'd be willing to bet that if we had PoVs east of the Bone Mountains we'd be hearing prophecies about the reincarnation of Neferion and the Shadowchaser who lives at the end of every Age and so on.

And if the legendary events actually did happen and will soon happen again in the frozen northlands of Westeros, AA and R'hllor are likely to be a more distorted version of the story than the Old Gods and their Last Hero, or the Valyrians and their Prince, or others who were closer to the events than Asshai.

So, if Azor Ahai existed, that's actually evidence that R'hllor is not real, he's just how one culture chose to interpret the same magical events that other cultures interpreted in terms of different gods; if he's Reborn, that's even more evidence of the same.

[falcotron]

Thoros actually did perform a ritual. It was one he had performed before, as a red priest, though without the resurrection. It was some form of burial ritual, I think. A farewell to the dead. We also know that magic has slowly been returning to the world, but that it was gone, more or less.

My view of the ritual was that it was some form of magic that, over time with the lessening of magic, stopped working and thus became something that they did, not in order to resurrect, but as part of the burial.

I think it's more than just that magic is stronger now, it's also that magic in GRRM's world is inherently unpredictable and irreproducible. Many red priests perform that same ritual all over the planet, and they aren't suddenly resurrecting people left and right. Something special and strange happened with Thoros and Beric. Just as something special and strange happened and Dany's one-time-only dragon hatching. And so on.

GRRM has basically told us that anyone in-universe who thinks they understand how magic works (whether in terms of the favor of a god, or in terms of a scientific system) is wrong. He's explained why he didn't want to write a series where magic worked like that. And everything else he's said implies that anyone who thinks they understand his magic system out-of-universe is just as wrong as those in-universe.

[Lord Lannister]

Depending on who you ask, all of them or none of them.

[Aderyn]

The answer is the same as it would be in our world.

No god exists unless you believe in it.

Magic is a whole another concept.

[Lord of the Dreadfort]

The Faceless God and R'hllor may be just powerfull magic, nothing more.

The Seven sounds like an old tale that old people tell, to me they're pure bullshit.

The drowned God is the one i think it may be real. Patchface is one of the reasons.

[BONEMAN]

The only evil that ever exists in Martin's work is the product of zealots. Even Melisandre's tricks are just smoke and mirrors, some bs narrative built around the ability to tap into some kind of power that I really doubt is just straight magI'd.

[Light a wight tonight]

They are all false.

[hiemal]

Depends on the definition of "real". I doubt that any of them are actually divine, but I suspect that they are powers of one sort or another.

"Any sufficiently uncanny entity is indisguishingable from a god", Clarke's maxim revised for Westeros

[Bobby b's bobby]

It's up to you.