WOT questions, advice needed and given.

[David Selig]

If you are looking at statutory rape, then it's not extremely uncommon no. Apart from that I have seen no statistic so I'd say "happens pretty often" is conjecture.

I have seen statistics. It happens much more often than most people think.

But yeah, the way it's treated in the series is quite shameful.

As for Paolini - it's not his parents' fault so many people bought what was obviously a terribly written ripoff of many other books. It's the customers' fault for being dumb IMO. ;)

[Esa1996]

:wideeyed: People count how many days it takes them to read a book?

And this thread taught me to not feel guilty about not reading WOT. Actually from how many times it is just mentioned on the forum, I had thought it was better regarded.

Generally I think it is better regarded. For some reason half this forum just hates it. Perhaps because Martin copied so much stuff from it? ;) (Granted, he did do his own take on everything he copied so it's not direct copying. More like taking influence. Also, some of the stuff he "copied" from WOT can be found in half the fantasy series out there so it's not really copying. Anyway, there's loads of similarities in plots and characters.)

[HexMachina]

Generally I think it is better regarded. For some reason half this forum just hates it. Perhaps because Martin copied so much stuff from it? ;) (Granted, he did do his own take on everything he copied so it's not direct copying. More like taking influence. Also, some of the stuff he "copied" from WOT can be found in half the fantasy series out there so it's not really copying. Anyway, there's loads of similarities in plots and characters.)

Oh dear, not this again surely? This should be entertaining

[Lord Varys]

Charles Phipps,

I'm no expert and not all that far into the books, but as I understood it Aiel women decide who they marry. The men can show interest, but they can't ask the women to marry them - which means that an Aiel woman should be able to force a man to marry him, no? Or can he refuse/back down after he has shown interest, and she has decided she wants him? And if he wants only one woman he has to take her best friend, too, if the women decide that, no?

As to Nynaeve-Elayne:

You are confusing things there. I'm not speaking about the good old days in books 2 when Elayne and Egwene were simple initiates while Nynaeve had been made an accepted (hopefully those are the right English terms, after all, I'm listening to the German audio book). I meant Elayne and Nynaeve's solo mission along with Thom and the other guy to Tanchico where they encountered Moghedien and this men-controlling device (and Liandrin & company as well, along with that good Seanchan woman). Elayne and Nynaeve had the same Aes Sedai rank then - both wearing the ring already, but had not yet chosen which Ajah they would be nor sworn the three oaths. The same goes for Egwene at this point. She and Elayne get promoted after they return from the battle with the Seanchan at the western coast.

I'm not complaining about the fact that nobility doesn't get special treatment within the Aes Sedai. That's kind of the point of their training. But nobody in charge has ever made Nynaeve the one in charge of their mission, or the one to call the shots, or hector Elayne about what she is wearing, and how she is behaving towards Thom and other men. That is not her concern! Not to mention that the plan at this point is for Elayne to eventually become the Queen of Andor, not officially joining the ranks of the Aes Sedai, so she is actually sort of a special trainee there, anyway, not the average student (the order needs her since she has a claim to the throne of Andor).

Considering Nynaeve's upbringing in a backwater village she should be much more subservient to her betters - becoming Aes Sedai or not, or else there exists no nobility/royalty concept in this world (which seems to be the case anyway, since Elayne recalls that the Queens of Andor actually have married commoners in the past). This series sucks at depicting social classes/differences - pretty much everybody treats everybody as if they were equals.

After Last Battle/Cleansing stuff:

I know that the saidin problem is going to resolved by Rand eventually, so there should be a rise of male Aes Sedai in the last volumes of this series (or the at least the pretty big hint that the male Aes Sedai are going to return after the Last Battle). In that sense, the Aes Sedai - which were originally male and female - will get their missing element back, which will then take charge once again, as it should be (according to the world view transported in this series). Considering that everything is bent to happen again anyway - what a great concept - it is quite clear that the male and female Aes Sedai will return - and the male will be in charge, of course. We see how dominant/in charge the males were back during the war with Lew Therin's hundred companions (all male, if I'm not mistaken) as well as the number of male Forsaken compared to the female Forsaken.

David Selig,

I wasn't referring to rape there, mainly to the fact that those Aiel women seem to be able to force their best friend as a wife on their prospective husband - with or without his permission (although I may be wrong there, after all, I don't read this stuff, I'm simply listening to it, and it usually puts me to sleep pretty soon).

In general rape or sexual harassment isn't a thing men encounter from women very often - there is sexual abuse and mistreatment among spouses and between adult women and children, but the average forced intercourse/'I take you now because I want and can' date/relationship that makes up the most rape is quite rare. I'm an above average attractive male (Lyanna may be able to account for that if she is the Lyanna, and remembers that we briefly talked to each last year in London ;-)) but I never once faced any sort of improper advance from a woman that went above initiating a conversation (and even that is quite rare).

I could imagine being raped by a woman with the necessary toys, and women are certainly capable of using men for their own sexual pleasure, but that is not exactly the same as forcefully entering a woman without her consent (or continuing to do whatever it is you are doing when she's had enough).

Esa1996,

not sure what stuff George copied from Jordan. Enlighten us, please. Perhaps I don't since I'm still stuck in the fifth novel, I think. George may have been greatly influenced by Tad William's Osten Ard - that I just find slow and boring, not bad - depending on how closely the Others plot is going to resemble Ineluki's revenge plan/whether the Others are a more active branch of Children of the Forest (or another elf-like race) bent on avenging themselves on human kind.

[Corvinus85]

Generally I think it is better regarded. For some reason half this forum just hates it. Perhaps because Martin copied so much stuff from it? ;) (Granted, he did do his own take on everything he copied so it's not direct copying. More like taking influence. Also, some of the stuff he "copied" from WOT can be found in half the fantasy series out there so it's not really copying. Anyway, there's loads of similarities in plots and characters.)

I was with you until this comment. WTF

[David Selig]

Considering Nynaeve's upbringing in a backwater village she should be much more subservient to her betters - becoming Aes Sedai or not, or else there exists no nobility/royalty concept in this world (which seems to be the case anyway, since Elayne recalls that the Queens of Andor actually have married commoners in the past).

Nynaeve has grown up in a self-governing village where there hasn't been any aristocracy or nobility in recent memory and is pretty isolated from the rest of the world.

[DanteGabriel]

Martin probably secretly copied his magic system from WoT. Like Dany hatched the dragons (a very female thing to do, you know) because she surrendered to the fire, while all those Targaryen kings (not queens, mind you) failed to hatch dragons because they tried to conquer the magic.

[Esa1996]

Oh dear, not this again surely? This should be entertaining

I was with you until this comment. WTF

The smiley's there because it's a joke. Its true though that they have lots of similarities, no one can deny it. Game of Houses / Game of Thrones, Callandor / Lightbringer (Assuming it's a sword), Dragon Reborn / Azor Ahai Reborn... I also said that some of this stuff, especially the last two, are common fantasy tropes so it's not exactly copying. The magic sword at least is bound to be found in most fantasy series released before WOT. I don't know for sure as I've only read LotR.

Here's more discussion on whether ASOIAF is copied from WOT: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/95884-wheel-of-time-influences-in-asoiafspoilers-for-wheel-of-time-i-guess/ Personally I don't think it's copied from WOT, but I do think that Martin has taken some influence from it. Then again, taking influence from the work of others is just normal so who cares?

[TheRevanchist]

No, she doesn't. They are both Accepted at this point and equal in rank. And they are equal partners at this point of the story.

When 2 Aes Sedai are on the same rank, the stronger one leads. Always!

Nynaeve is stronger in One Power than Elayne. Elayne has to obey her (or serve her tea if she wants). Or do whatever Nynaeve wants.

Elayne is a terrible leader anyway. All her plans fail

[Sparrow spoiler]

Well, my original post has become quite the thread. I have enjoyed reading all your posts. Very interesting/funny and educational.

[TheRevanchist]

Generally I think it is better regarded. For some reason half this forum just hates it. Perhaps because Martin copied so much stuff from it? ;) (Granted, he did do his own take on everything he copied so it's not direct copying. More like taking influence. Also, some of the stuff he "copied" from WOT can be found in half the fantasy series out there so it's not really copying. Anyway, there's loads of similarities in plots and characters.)

He didn't. What he did instead was put a few references of WoT in ASOIAF, but they were more eastern eggs rather than part of the plot.

What is undeniable though, is that the comment from Jordan in the first page of Game of Thrones help the series grown. Back then Wheel of Time was the main thing and Robert Jordan's quote helped the sales of ASOIAF (GRRM said that too).

[TheRevanchist]

Well, my original post has become quite the thread. I have enjoyed reading all your posts. Very interesting/funny and educational.

Every WoT thread here goes in this direction.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

"Easter eggs" not "Eastern Eggs". :)

[TheRevanchist]

Cheers!

[Sparrow spoiler]

I will give book 1 of WOT a try after "Lies of Locke Lamora" and after Robin Hobbs new book in AUg. One of the earlier posters was right as much as I respect all your opinions, I need to make my own. Who knows what will happen.

[Lord Varys]

David Selig,

the guys from Emmond's Field were pretty intimidated/impressed by Baerlon and Caemlyn later, when they got there, though. Suggesting that Nynaeve would have been pretty intimidated by the people living in those cities rather than treating everyone she meets as if they were her peers at home. That is not how you write a convincing character unless you want her to look stupid.

But this isn't above Nynaeve specifically. This thing continues with Egwene humiliating/domineering Nynaeve in the dream world (remember that whole disgusting tea episode and its lasting effects on Nynaeve's psyche?), and Egwene strengthening her hold on her (supposed) friend by having Elayne play the errand girl passing nasty messages along. I suppose that's Jordan's way of 'building-up' towards Egwene becoming the next Boss Aes Sedai.

As to the 'magical system' in ASoIaF:

There is such a thing, but it is more subtle and has yet to be explored. George isn't making stuff up as he is going along. There is a system to the whole skinchanger/greenseer thing, and supposedly also to the things the Others can and cannot do. I'd be surprised if they ever ended up throwing fire balls ;-).

With Bran and Mel as POVs he'll continue to explore magic more, and Qyburn and Marwyn will also give us deeper insight. But the difference there is that there isn't just one magic systems, but rather various schools of thought and traditions - religious or secular - which incorporate and include magic in their teachings. 'Only death can pay for life' may be true in regard to a certain type of blood magic. But there are clearly other ways to cheat death.

[Esa1996]

He didn't. What he did instead was put a few references of WoT in ASOIAF, but they were more eastern eggs rather than part of the plot.

What is undeniable though, is that the comment from Jordan in the first page of Game of Thrones help the series grown. Back then Wheel of Time was the main thing and Robert Jordan's quote helped the sales of ASOIAF (GRRM said that too).

Yeah I know about the "Maester Rigney once wrote that time is a wheel..." quote. I like that quote. :)

Was talking more about the similarities in the plots and some characters, but most of those can be said to be common fantasy tropes so they aren't really copied from anywhere. WOT just happens to have the same tropes and came out before ASOIAF (Not that it was the first to have said tropes).

[David Selig]

When 2 Aes Sedai are on the same rank, the stronger one leads. Always!

Nynaeve is stronger in One Power than Elayne. Elayne has to obey her (or serve her tea if she wants). Or do whatever Nynaeve wants.

Elayne is a terrible leader anyway. All her plans fail

Except that, you know, they were Accepted at this point and had no idea about the ranking system which the Aes Sedai use.

And Elayne is a very good leader.

[Andrew Gilfellon]

In a Sing song voice, The WOT women are like: We like spanking and tugging on our braids, we have some power but we'd rather spank each other.

The ASOIF women are like: I'm just as good a swordsman/leader/etc as a man and want to be taken seriously.

Robert Jordon be like: I've just written my 19th spanking scene, I'd like to see them say I'm sexist now.

GRRM is like: LEAVE ME ALONE WHILE I WRITE THE F***KING BOOK.

Eh..........I've read the first WOT. Prefer ASOIF. The female characters are more realistic.

People are free to like what they like. For example. Some people say Once Upon a Time is a well written show with consistent plotting and characters. I could point out how this is wrong, but I won't. It's their opinion. Different people require different shades of proof.

[Lyanna Stark]

Martin probably secretly copied his magic system from WoT. Like Dany hatched the dragons (a very female thing to do, you know) because she surrendered to the fire, while all those Targaryen kings (not queens, mind you) failed to hatch dragons because they tried to conquer the magic.

And Melisandre surrendered to Stannis and made shadow babies! It all makes sense now even in my submissive gentle ladybrain. Thank you DG!

PS. Can I submit to you perchance? Or at least tug my braids?

(Lyanna may be able to account for that if she is the Lyanna, and remembers that we briefly talked to each last year in London ;-))

I am like Highlander: there can be only one. It was the ASOIAF trainwreck panel wasn't it? Most memorable occasion. You don't look like a bald eunuch in RL.

Was talking more about the similarities in the plots and some characters, but most of those can be said to be common fantasy tropes so they aren't really copied from anywhere. WOT just happens to have the same tropes and came out before ASOIAF (Not that it was the first to have said tropes).

Indulge me, please. What are the similarities and plot, tropes and characters that immediately stand out to you as being similar?