Rant & Rave Without Repercussion s 5 continued [book spoilers]

[TepidHands]

Chaos is not a ladder. Chaos is a laddah.

I heard it more as "Chaosh ish a laddah." 

[Le Cygne]

Whisper in a Batman voice when you say that.

 

Lady FD shall always be remembered for giving us Batfinger. :lol:

[Chebyshov]

I'm starting to think that Littlefinger's "chaos is a ladder" speech is one of the cleverest parts of the entire show. By establishing that LF is nothing more than an agent of chaos, they can essentially do what they want with him. Any plan, scheme or plot friendly political move can now be made and the reasoning behind it doesn't have to make sense because LF believes in chaos. It's ingenious. 

 

I'm pretty sure "chaos is a ladder"  is what stupid people think a smart strategy is. But you're right, that it was really almost an ingenious way of D&D protecting themselves from actual criticism, because now logic being thrown at the window can just be chalked up to chaos!

 

The weirdest part of that whole speech was how Varys objected to it. It's made quite clear at the end of ADWD that "chaos" suits his needs as well. And Obara makes the point about the realm being ripe for the taken in "The Watcher." Like literally every single player in ASOIAF who isn't from House Lannister or Tyrell sees the value of "chaos," as in "an unstable central government." That's just called being a thinking person. But that doesn't mean any of them throw a hundred balls up into the air because "chaos" and wherever they fall, they fall. They all plan, Littlefinger especially. "Chaos is a ladder" is pretty much a child's understanding of the political scene.

[TepidHands]

And in the meantime, of course, real chaos, the genuine article, is way up north and moving south ... I don't think the show has done ENOUGH to create a feeling of dread, and while it's snowing in the North, we have no sense of the seasons changing anywhere else. In the books it was snowing in the Riverlands ... oh wait. There are no Season 5 Riverlands. There hasn't been a scene in the Riverlands since the Hound and Arya's Excellent Adventure. It's like anything involving Others is isolated instead of integrated. 

[Toth]

I'm pretty sure "chaos is a ladder"  is what stupid people think a smart strategy is. But you're right, that it was really almost an ingenious way of D&D protecting themselves from actual criticism, because now logic being thrown at the window can just be chalked up to chaos!

 

The weirdest part of that whole speech was how Varys objected to it. It's made quite clear at the end of ADWD that "chaos" suits his needs as well. And Obara makes the point about the realm being ripe for the taken in "The Watcher." Like literally every single player in ASOIAF who isn't from House Lannister or Tyrell sees the value of "chaos," as in "an unstable central government." That's just called being a thinking person. But that doesn't mean any of them throw a hundred balls up into the air because "chaos" and wherever they fall, they fall. They all plan, Littlefinger especially. "Chaos is a ladder" is pretty much a child's understanding of the political scene.

 

That's why I think it could have been actually a very good line... if the context was the right one and if Littlefinger's plans would make sense (and if they wouldn't have been talking about frikking Ros). Varys would be the right one there, chaos is a gaping pit. The trick is to climb the backs of those who are being swallowed by it, this is the strategy of book!Littlefinger. Chaos itself of course is not the ladder, it's the opportunities you yourself create to help you rise.

 

Of course the fact itself that Littlefinger pretty much openly tells the Master of Whisperers that he is an opportunistic bastard is ridiculous in itself. Like telling basically the same thing to Cersei and getting away with it...

[Le Cygne]

Another thought, Jeyne Poole was arguably the worst thing Littlefinger did in the book series. It's so revealing of what a vicious psychopath he is. They hinted at this with the Lysene girl he sold to a man like Ramsay, in a scene in season 2, and what he did to Ros in season 3.

 

But then they whitewashed him in seasons 4 and 5, he was a Stark avenger, and he had no idea Ramsay was that bad. Really? That Ramsay was occupying Winterfell at the behest of his Stark killing father, and that he makes no secret of flaying people (why, look, they are right there in the yard!) wasn't bad enough.

 

(And suddenly, when it comes to Ramsay, Littlefinger has no idea what's going on... Yeah, right. All he had to do was ask a serving maid at that inn, news of what he did to Violet and the others Myranda named would have spread throughout the countryside.)

 

And yet, they showed he was pimping Sansa out, had Roose Bolton of all people throw shade on him (he said he leaves inspecting her body for virginity to the brothel owner). And yet, they focused on his desires, what he wants is all that matters. They can't seem to make up their minds. But in the process, what he did to Jeyne was lost.

 

And perhaps downplaying this horrible deed was to set up Sansa going back to him, after what he did to her. Which would be a horrible thing for them to do to her, but hey, might as well add to the horrible things they've already done.

[Shuvuuia]

Another thought, Jeyne Poole was arguably the worst thing Littlefinger did in the book series. It's so revealing of what a vicious psychopath he is. They hinted at this with the Lysene girl he sold to a man like Ramsay, in a scene in season 2, and what he did to Ros in season 3.

 

But then they whitewashed him in seasons 4 and 5, he was a Stark avenger, and he had no idea Ramsay was that bad.

And they made Ros a prominent character, killed her off and forgot about her, and have no problems with white-washing LF after that. Shows how they don't treat sex-workers as anything more than walking tits. 

[Chebyshov]

And they made Ros a prominent character, killed her off and forgot about her, and have no problems with white-washing LF after that. Shows how they don't treat sex-workers as anything more than walking tits. 

 

Walking tits who are just DYING for the right man to come along and pleasure them so they can forgo their wages for the day. Even sex slaves are starved for male attention.

[Le Cygne]

"The gift" that keeps giving! The prostitutes are the only women enjoying sexuality on the show. Madonna - whore.

[Shuvuuia]

Also, does Olyvar sleep with Loras as a part of his work or because they are in luv? I sincerely don't remember.

[Richard Writhen]

Yep, pretty much. Not a pretty picture, but hey its again, another allegory for real life.  

[TheCasualObserver]

And they made Ros a prominent character, killed her off and forgot about her, and have no problems with white-washing LF after that. Shows how they don't treat sex-workers as anything more than walking tits. 

This actually brings up an idea I had about how they could have done this storyline without Sansa.

 

When you think about it, Ros would have been an ideal stand in for Jeyne Poole. As a tall leggy redhead she could pass as a grown up Sansa, knows Winterfell well, and has recently displeased LF. Instead of getting killed by Joffrey she should have been put on Jeyne Poole's path; and this also solves the "problem" of the audience not having buy in with a new character being raped. 

 

It's also good for Theon's character - as a man who has paid Ros for sex in the past, seeing her raped and wanting to save her (even though as a whore she is on the lowest wrung of Westerosi society) gives the potential for far deeper characterization than simply wanting to save Sansa from Myranda. Obviously Ros is dead in OTL, but she wasn't back in season 2 when D and D were contemplating how to adapt this story, which they "loved."

 

Ros as a fake Sansa solves almost all of the problems with Littlefinger and the Bolton's logic. What a wasted opportunity.

[Le Cygne]

This actually brings up an idea I had about how they could have done this storyline without Sansa.

 

When you think about it, Ros would have been an ideal stand in for Jeyne Poole. As a tall leggy redhead she could pass as a grown up Sansa, knows Winterfell well, and has recently displeased LF. Instead of getting killed by Joffrey she should have been put on Jeyne Poole's path; and this also solves the "problem" of the audience not having buy in with a new character being raped. 

 

It's also good for Theon's character - as a man who has paid Ros for sex in the past, seeing her raped and wanting to save her (even though as a whore she is on the lowest wrung of Westerosi society) gives the potential for far deeper characterization than simply wanting to save Sansa from Myranda. Obviously Ros is dead in OTL, but she wasn't back in season 2 when D and D were contemplating how to adapt this story, which they "loved."

 

Ros as a fake Sansa solves almost all of the problems with Littlefinger and the Bolton's logic. What a wasted opportunity.

 

Wow, that's a really good point. All the checklist items on their adaptation is fun and easy when you don't care about the source material list would have been checked.

 

What's really troublesome is when the media asks, does LF really care about Sansa? Or Catelyn (if they ever think to remember her)? Did anyone ask if Dorian Gray really cared about Sibyl?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It's not like LF is completely against chaos. He kinda says that to Sansa during Feast, that he was expecting Cersei to make a mess of the realm, but not that soon. Also, what's the point of the war between Starks and Lannisters if not ripping from the chaos?

 

The second one is very well written. I came to that conclusion back in season 2. The fact is David Benioff is a bad writer. Always will be. I wouldn't have been shocked if he written the hobbit. Thought I never cared about book sansa- who I as a person is at fault, not the writing... She deserved better in the show.

 

That's something mostly readers are feeling about characters they don't like. Many antiStannis feel he has been treated badly in the show, for instance.

 

I heard it more as "Chaosh ish a laddah." 

 

He's Sean Connery now?

[TheCasualObserver]

 

Wow, that's a really good point. All the checklist items on their adaptation is fun and easy when you don't care about the source material list would have been checked.

 

What's really troublesome is when the media asks, does LF really care about Sansa? Or Catelyn (if they ever think to remember her)? Did anyone ask if Dorian Gray really cared about Sibyl?

I would argue that whether or not Littlefinger cares about Sansa is essentially a moot point. Whether he has emotional investment with her as the daughter (and stand in) for the women he loved, or if she is simply a political pawn to be used for his own gain, throwing Sansa to the Boltons makes no sense. 

 

As a political move the only discernible advantage was that it made Cersei give him permission to attack the Boltons. Considering that she doesn't actually help him take the north and whatever legitimacy she might give him is predicated upon beheading Sansa anyway (which the Vale lords will not allow) this help is hardly worth giving up his number one political asset to men famous for flaying people alive. And then he goes ahead and gives the Tyrells Lancel (or Olyvar? I was never clear on that) to further destabilize Cersei's power base, eliminating whatever help or legitimacy she might have been able to give anyway. It's a clusterfruitcake.

 

If Ros were Ramsay's bride it would make perfect sense, because she has no value to LF beyond pretending to be someone else.

[Ramsay's 20 Good Men]

LF in the books does create chaos (Starks vs Lannisters) and does seem to thrive on it (LP of Riverlands, marriage to Lysa) but I think D&D seem to be a little confused with their 'chaos is a laddah' thing. He doesn't thrive on chaos by making very unpredictable and chaotic moves, betraying pretty much everyone and taking huge risks in the books. The way he thrives on chaos is by having a plan and making moves that uses the chaos to push him up. D&D seem to think that him thriving on chaos is being chaotic himself, which isn't how it works. If he actually tried that in a real life situation it would never work, but of course in the show everything works out perfectly for him because D&D love him so much (and it wouldn't surprise me if they thought the way LF does in the show).

[Shuvuuia]

This actually brings up an idea I had about how they could have done this storyline without Sansa.

 

When you think about it, Ros would have been an ideal stand in for Jeyne Poole. As a tall leggy redhead she could pass as a grown up Sansa, knows Winterfell well, and has recently displeased LF. Instead of getting killed by Joffrey she should have been put on Jeyne Poole's path; and this also solves the "problem" of the audience not having buy in with a new character being raped. 

 

It's also good for Theon's character - as a man who has paid Ros for sex in the past, seeing her raped and wanting to save her (even though as a whore she is on the lowest wrung of Westerosi society) gives the potential for far deeper characterization than simply wanting to save Sansa from Myranda. Obviously Ros is dead in OTL, but she wasn't back in season 2 when D and D were contemplating how to adapt this story, which they "loved."

 

Ros as a fake Sansa solves almost all of the problems with Littlefinger and the Bolton's logic. What a wasted opportunity.

 this is really better than what the show has done.

[Le Cygne]

I would argue that whether or not Littlefinger cares about Sansa is essentially a moot point. Whether he has emotional investment with her as the daughter (and stand in) for the women he loved, or if she is simply a political pawn to be used for his own gain, throwing Sansa to the Boltons makes no sense.

It made no sense, but my point was, they aren't telling the story well if they are even asking this.

 

He's a psychopath. He doesn't love anyone but himself. He destroyed Cat and Sansa's lives.

[Le Cygne]

I wonder what this is:

 

Gower was much more cryptic about a mind-blowing VFX challenge that fans will see in Season 6… probably. “Benioff and Weiss, when they write the outline each year, for last two years, we got to this one point and we read this one gag and thought 'Oh my God, how the hell are we going to do that? But this is going to be incredible!’ And then it got pulled and we didn’t do it in Season 4,” says Gower. “And then, lo and behold, in Season 5 there it was again. And it’s pulled again! But now, in Season 6, it looks like we’re going to do it. Fingers crossed they won’t chicken out.”

 

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/game-of-thrones-dragons-white-walkers-vfx-121365015845.html

[protar]

I wonder what this is:

 

 

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/game-of-thrones-dragons-white-walkers-vfx-121365015845.html

 

I recall some speculation that it was Theon full frontal.