Greece V - Alexis is the youngest, most handsome and successful PM in Europe

[Jon AS]

Funny. I assumed it was obvious that corruption accusation which will hit you more than everybody else, is not something which will actually have any effect. What would have been left from your two points would be nationalisation of some stuff. Which of course would make the eurozone reconsider giving anything.  Thats quite straigt forward.

So what would it establish? Screaming you have to bribe people to get things done in greece and in addition saying your stuff now belongs  to us.

 

 

While plans for nationalisation are mentioned in the article, neither of us referenced them until now as a reason why the investigations into corruption involving

German companies couldn't go forward. The two aren't related outside the context of the alleged plan.

[Biglose]

 

 

While plans for nationalisation are mentioned in the article, neither of us referenced them until now as a reason why the investigations into corruption involving

German companies couldn't go forward. The two aren't related outside the context of the alleged plan.

You asked, why are they not doing what is said in the article non the less.

I awnsered your question by pointing out that the corruption thing would go nowhere except hurting them (which might be good in the long run for the country but they would never do it) so it leaves the rest mentioned in the artikle, which would just translate into no more money.  Thats why they are not doing it. It is one of those scratch your forearm cut my own throat strategies. In this regard similar to the referendum.

If they would already be dropping out, it would not have mattered anyway.

[Cuellar]

It's highly likely that the German companies are less corrupt than most other European companies, and also less corrupt than Greece in general.  It will just antagonize the Germans further, who happen to be the ones that Greece is mooching off.    It's like a little kid getting in a fight with his mom.   

 

Greek stock market opened today after 5 weeks and just got crushed (no surprise).  Basically an equivalent % to the Black Monday of 1987 in the US. 

[Fragile Bird]

It's highly likely that the German companies are less corrupt than most other European companies, and also less corrupt than Greece in general.  It will just antagonize the Germans further, who happen to be the ones that Greece is mooching off.    It's like a little kid getting in a fight with his mom.   
 
Greek stock market opened today after 5 weeks and just got crushed (no surprise).  Basically an equivalent % to the Black Monday of 1987 in the US.

Good grief, what in heaven's name makes you think German companies are less corrupt? I worked for a world-wide US based company with large operations in Canada, and we ran into Siemens, for example, in many countries bribing their way to contracts. Siemens got prosecuted pretty heavily. If I spent some time on the internet, I think I could come up with lots of German examples, and they are more important than Greek examples because so many more German companies have business interests around the world.

When it comes to local corruption, though, I suspect there is more in Greece.

[Guest]

But it's so simple.

 

In better situation = morally good

 

In lesser situation = morally bad

[Cuellar]

Good grief, what in heaven's name makes you think German companies are less corrupt? I worked for a world-wide US based company with large operations in Canada, and we ran into Siemens, for example, in many countries bribing their way to contracts. Siemens got prosecuted pretty heavily. If I spent some time on the internet, I think I could come up with lots of German examples, and they are more important than Greek examples because so many more German companies have business interests around the world.

When it comes to local corruption, though, I suspect there is more in Greece.

 

 

Compared to the crazy sheet the Greeks are up to, I'd assume they are less corrupt (not corruption free).   I think the Oil and Gas industry is extremely bad about corruption, I think Tourism is the top industry for Greece, followed by Ag.  Obviously banks are probably corrupt as hell at this point (which I'm sure our American banks are leading the way).  Out of Greece's Top 10 companies, 4 are banks, 3 energy, 1 construction... all of those industries are terrible for corruption even in the US. 

[Solmyr]

You know things are bad when angry Nigerian princes start calling, claiming you are encroaching on their markets ...

[kiko]

Siemens was especially bad, that's true.
Right now, we have so many compliance trainings and awareness programmes, checklist and so on...I believe that we are cleaner than most. I don't even get bonuses any more,because sales used fake bonuses for bribery.
Siemens' problem is that they work for the public sector more often than not. This is a cesspool of corruption. Also we are heavily buying into the oil industry. Oh well...more compliance training on the horizon. Damn

Good grief, what in heaven's name makes you think German companies are less corrupt? I worked for a world-wide US based company with large operations in Canada, and we ran into Siemens, for example, in many countries bribing their way to contracts. Siemens got prosecuted pretty heavily. If I spent some time on the internet, I think I could come up with lots of German examples, and they are more important than Greek examples because so many more German companies have business interests around the world.

When it comes to local corruption, though, I suspect there is more in Greece.

[Arataniello]

Tsipras resigns.  New elections in September.  Greek tragedy or Greek comedy?  A bit of both really.

 

Tsipras claiming he has "exhausted" the mandate he received in the elections at the start of the year.  Or is he in fact hoping he is not re-elected and then can walk away and leave the fallout from his bungled eight months in power to be cleaned up by someone else?

 

Edited for spelling

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Depending on the outcome smart tactical play.

 

Tsipras hopes for two things.

 

A Split of Syriza and getting reelected after the split.

After that he can rule with his Syriza without having to deal with Zoi Konstantopoulou  and Lafazanis (and Varoufakis? and whoever joins them).

 

Syriza 1 with Tsipras will probably run with something like: "We tried our best, but we were beaten. I am not fond of the reforms, but we have to play along."

 

Syriza 2 with Konstantopoulou and co. will again run with "No, to austerity!" So basically the pure undiluted Syriza (Tea Party Syriza if you allow me this tongue in cheek comparison.)

 

I guess that's what he is aiming for. At the moment he can only rule with the help of the opposition, so he is not in a particularly strong position. And if I am not mistaken he still has relatively high approval ratings. So the odds of the reelection strengthening his position significantly are not that bad.

 

Our Greek posters probably will have a better insight and can predict better how things will work out, but from the outside that pretty much appears the situation and the idea behind Tsipras announcing reelection.  If that works out, Tsipras has pulled off a brilliant political play.

 

I am more curious what happens, if Syriza does not split, and this whole thing blows up straight into his face. He can't rule against his own party forever. 

[Lyanna Stark]

I can only take the title as sarcasm, seeing what an ugly mofo Tsipras is (and how epicly he and Varoufakis failed in the negotiations by antagonizing the creditors)

 

 

Dude, you have no idea what ugly looks like. I mean, who would he be compared to? Schauble? Cameron (who looks suspiciously like ham) or our PM who is a solid worker guy who looks somewhat like an ex-boxer.

 

It's funny that Greece's lack of enthusiasm for prosecuting criminal behaviour can be used as justification to put most of the blame for the crisis on the Greek people, while simultaneously acknowledging that actually cleaning house would probably cause some of their creditors to reconsider their involvement in the country.

 

 

Indeed. It's pretty sad. All our neoliberal newspaper commentators are getting all "I told you so, it's what happens when leftist extremists are allowed to be in charge" as if Tsipras and Syriza were actually behind the bad state of Greek finances on their own and due to the above showing "no interest" in actually changing anything for the better.

 

 

It's highly likely that the German companies are less corrupt than most other European companies, and also less corrupt than Greece in general.  It will just antagonize the Germans further, who happen to be the ones that Greece is mooching off.    It's like a little kid getting in a fight with his mom.   

 

Greek stock market opened today after 5 weeks and just got crushed (no surprise).  Basically an equivalent % to the Black Monday of 1987 in the US. 

 

 

 

I dunno about less. Probably kept more under wraps and at higher level. In northern Europe you don't have to bribe public officials to get your paperwork in order, on the other hand big business going out internationally seem very, very good at bribing and underhand deals. 

[Guest]

Indeed. It's pretty sad. All our neoliberal newspaper commentators are getting all "I told you so, it's what happens when leftist extremists are allowed to be in charge" as if Tsipras and Syriza were actually behind the bad state of Greek finances on their own and due to the above showing "no interest" in actually changing anything for the better.

 

Seriously.   I get frustrated when people don't think that context matters.  Whatever anyone says about the Tsipras or Yanis in All His Glory, they didn't create Greece's situation.  They were elected because of it.  And I don't think that there was any way to know for sure going in whether or not Syriza could have gotten a better deal.  It's not like everyone in the EU was completely with Wolfy even if he won in the end. 

[The guy from the Vale]

Yep. Also, do those commentators really want a Golden Dawn-led Greece? Because at this time, that's pretty much the "alternative" to Syriza; PASOK andND are still discredited, and righty so: They were the ones who brought Greece into this mess in the first place, not Syriza.

[Guest]

Yanis has now called Tsipras the new De Gaulle which I'm pretty sure means he's also calling the Germans Nazis. 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Yanis has now called Tsipras the new De Gaulle which I'm pretty sure means he's also calling the Germans Nazis. 

 

Hum, no. De Gaulle spent WWII (in parts at least) in exile in England, and helped/worked from there. 

After WWII when he became President of France him and German chancellor Adenauer were rather big on reconciliation (check Elysee Treaty). So I fail to see him calling out the Germans as Nazis on this one. 

[Guest]

 

Hum, no. De Gaulle spent WWII (in parts at least) in exile in England, and helped/worked from there. 

After WWII when he became President of France him and German chancellor Adenauer were rather big on reconciliation (check Elysee Treaty). So I fail to see him calling out the Germans as Nazis on this one. 

 

But didn't De Gaulle unsuccessfully oppose surrender to the Germans?  I'm not saying Varoufakis made a good comparison, but what else could he have meant?

[A Horse Named Stranger]

No, idea. The statement would need some context to interpret it properly.

I am going with the more optimistic and less loud interpretation, that Tsipras is the guy to mend fences and make peace. Sounds uncharacteriscally calm and peaceful for Yanis, but open conflict hasn't brought much to the Greek people but more harm and anguish (Banks lockdown and all the stuff related to that). 

I am quite sure Tsipras has learnt he can't take on the Troika head on. So at least Tsipras is into verbal disarment mode, and maybe Varoufakis has tuned down a bit, too.

[Guest]

No, idea. The statement would need some context to interpret it properly.

I am going with the more optimistic and less loud interpretation, that Tsipras is the guy to mend fences and make peace. Sounds uncharacteriscally calm and peaceful for Yanis, but open conflict hasn't brought much to the Greek people but more harm and anguish (Banks lockdown and all the stuff related to that). 

I am quite sure Tsipras has learnt he can't take on the Troika head on. So at least Tsipras is into verbal disarment mode, and maybe Varoufakis has tuned down a bit, too.

 

Well, it's pretty clear that's not what Varoufakis was doing:

 

 

Breaking the wary truce since his surprise resignation the day after Greeks voted to reject austerity in a referendum last month, Varoufakis has lashed out at the leftwing leader’s policy choices, saying in an interview in the New Review that Tsipras had decided “to surrender” to the punitive demands of international creditors keeping Athens afloat. Instead of remaining faithful to the anti-austerity platform on which his radical left Syriza party had been elected, the young prime minister had allowed his ego to get the better of him and made a conscious decision to become the “new De Gaulle, or Mitterrand more likely”.

 

 

From the Guardian

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Well, in that context he makes

"the new de Gaulle, or Mitterand" more sound like an insult, than a compliment.

 

But both Mitterand and CDG are known to have been rather German friendly during their reigns. So Yanis is calling out Tsipras as being too friendly/cozy with the Germans. There are worse people to be compared to, even if it was intended as an insult. Mitterand was one of the architects of modern Europe (with all its shortcomings). So if I was Tsipras I wouldn't really feel a sting coming from that "insult".

 

So Yanis is probably not going to stay with Tsipras and his Syriza, but is off to the new "Tea Party Syriza" with Konstantopoulou and Lafazanis. Not totally surprising afterall. 

 

Well, I am mildly curious to see how much votes each Syriza fraction is going gather at the next elections.

[Shryke]

An interesting interview with  :

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/08/yanis-varoufakis-greece-eu/402580/

Anton Muscattelli, University of Glasgow: Why was Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras persuaded to accept the EU’s pre-conditions around the third bailout discussions despite a decisive referendum victory for the No campaign; and is this the end of the road for the anti-austerity wing of Syriza in Greece?

 

Yanis Varoufakis: Tsipras’s answer is that he was taken aback by official Europe’s determination to punish Greek voters by putting into action German finance minister Wolfgang Schäuble’s plan to push Greece out of the euro zone, re-denominate Greek bank deposits in a currency that was not even ready, and even ban the use of euros in Greece. These threats, independently of whether they were credible or not, did untold damage to the European Union’s image as a community of nations and drove a wedge through the axiom of the euro zone’s indivisibility.

 

As you probably have heard, on the night of the referendum, I disagreed with Tsipras on his assessment of the credibility of these threats and resigned as finance minister. But even if I was wrong on the issue of the credibility of the troika’s threats, my great fear was, and remains, that our party, Syriza, would be torn apart by the decision to implement another self-defeating austerity program of the type that we were elected to challenge. It is now clear that my fears were justified.