Wow, I Never Noticed That v. 13

[Lost Melnibonean]

Seems more like a "Small Question" to me  

Perhaps she'll make a compromise, and use a little of both.

Small questions should have a definitive answer, or a definitive non-answer. I'm looking for a little speculation...

ETA

"Drink. Your king commands it." Robert to Eddard in Game

"Drain the cup, Sansa. Your queen commands you." Cersei in Clash

[FuzzyJAM]

Sorry if this has already been mentioned (I've only read the first 5 topics - 7 more to go) but I just noticed something last night:

The King Who Knelt is called Torrhen Stark.  

Literally a chicken.  

[Swordofmorning]

I wanted to post this days ago but couldn't find the thread.

Was rereading the Ned chapter after that Joffrey and Nymeria incident and what do I find

"Enough, Ned, I will hear no more. A direwolf is a savage beast. Sooner or later it would have turned on your girl the same way the other did on my son. Get her a dog, she'll be happier for it."

And we all know who the dog is.....

 

 

 

[Lost Melnibonean]

Black Walder was a man who took what he wanted, even his brother's wife. He'd had Edwyn's wife too, that was common knowledge, Fair Walda had been known to slip into his bed from time to time, and some even said he'd known the seventh Lady Frey a deal better than he should have.

Epilogue, Storm

Elmar could be friendly when he needed help, but afterward he would always remember that he was a squire and she was only a serving girl, He liked to boast how he was the son of the Lord of the Crossing, not a nephew or a bastard or a grandson but a trueborn son, and on account of that he was going to marry a princess.

Arya X, Clash 64

Elmar Frey-Farring is totally a bastard, poor boy.

 

 

[The Snow Bear]

Just noticed, that Lancel is just 15 in GoT.

Cercei isn't only an adultres but also a pedophile (even though some would say tha Lancel wasn't regarded as a child in-universe)

[Taenqyrhae]

Just noticed, that Lancel is just 15 in GoT.

Cercei isn't only an adultres but also a pedophile (even though some would say tha Lancel wasn't regarded as a child in-universe)

By that definition, who ISN'T a pedophile in the series?  If R+L=J is true (I don't think it is), then Rhaegar was an even worse pedophile as Lyanna was only 14.  So was Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon, and many others.  And technically, pedophilia is attraction to pre-pubescent children.  Even in realistic medieval times, when most girls started their period at the age of 15, that's not really pre-pubescent.

[The scourge of westeros]

On my second read through of dance I realized at the end of the book that lollys stokeworth's child is named "tyrion tanner of the hundred fathers".... That's rough...damn that's rough 

[Aniel]

Just noticed, that Lancel is just 15 in GoT.

Cercei isn't only an adultres but also a pedophile (even though some would say tha Lancel wasn't regarded as a child in-universe)

By that definition, who ISN'T a pedophile in the series?  If R+L=J is true (I don't think it is), then Rhaegar was an even worse pedophile as Lyanna was only 14.  So was Jon Arryn, Robert Baratheon, and many others.  And technically, pedophilia is attraction to pre-pubescent children.  Even in realistic medieval times, when most girls started their period at the age of 15, that's not really pre-pubescent.

Technically Cersei would be an ephebophile, and Rhaegar a hebephile. Pedophilia is about prepubescent children, hebephilia is about early pubescents and ephebophilia is mid-late adolecents. This is all about sexual preferences for people that young though, not everyone who ends up attracted say, a 16-year old is going to be an ephebophile. I might be confusing the show and the books, but I think Drogo is the only character whom we are explicitly told likes younger females, so he would be a hebephile (judging by Dany's age). Pedophilia has become the go-to term for sexual attraction to people below the age of consent in our times, but since there's no age of consent as we understand it today, you wouldn't really be able to take a character to court for pedophilia unless there were actual prepubescent children involved.

[Taenqyrhae]

 That's rough...damn that's rough 

[Taenqyrhae]

I like the definition that a hebephile is a pedophile with a thesaurus.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

I feel like I should remind you in a world, where many people cannot reasonably expect to live to see their 20th name day, getting pregnant earliest possible and at 15 is quite the sensible thing to do.

eta: our own world is only some 170 years past the time where that was generally true, too.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Bloodraven

The noise receded as she moved deeper into the castle, never daring to look back for fear that Joffrey might be watching . . . or worse, following. The serpentine steps twisted ahead, striped by bars of flickering light from the narrow windows above. Sansa was panting by the time she reached the top. She ran down a shadowy colonnade and pressed herself against a wall to catch her breath. When something brushed against her leg, she almost jumped out of her skin, but it was only a cat, a ragged black tom with a chewed-off ear. The creature spit at her and leapt away.

Sansa II, Clash 18

No one saw her, and she saw no one, only a grey and white cat creeping along atop the godswood wall. It stopped and spit at her, waking memories of the Red Keep and her father and Syrio Forel. "I could catch you if I wanted," she called to it softly, "but I have to go, cat." The cat hissed again and ran off.

Arya X, Clash 64

Many folks believe the first cat is controlled by Bloodraven. The second cat appeared right after Arya talked with her dead father through a heart tree and resolved to escape Harrenhal. And Bloodraven inspired these words as she made good her escape. . .

"He told me to give all his guards a silver piece, for their good service." The words seemed to come out of nowhere. . . .

When he stopped moving, she picked up the coin. Outside the walls of Harrenhal, a wolf howled long and loud.

Arya X, Clash 64

Or maybe Arya howled . . .

"You stay here with the horses," said Arya. "I'll get rid of him. Come quick when I call."

Gendry nodded. Hot Pie said, "Hoot like an owl when you want us to come."

"I'm not an owl," said Arya. "I'm a wolf. I'll howl."

Arya X, Clash 64

She never did howl herself . . .

Apple Eater

So, will Lothor Brune, called Apple Eater, be friends with Franklyn Flowers, the self-styled Bown Apple, or will he kill the Bastard of Cider Hall?

Remember who you are, Sansa

Lord Paramount of the Trident, Sansa thought, and Lord of Harrenhal as well. She did not understand why that should make him so happy; the honors were as empty as the title granted to Hallyne the Pyromancer. Harrenhal was cursed, everyone knew that, and the Lannisters did not even hold it at present. Besides, the lords of the Trident were sworn to Riverrun and House Tully, and to the King in the North; they would never accept Littlefinger as their liege. Unless they are made to. Unless my brother and my uncle and my grandfather are all cast down and killed. The thought made Sansa anxious, but she told herself she was being silly. Robb has beaten them every time. He'll beat Lord Baelish too, if he must.

Sansa VIII, Clash 65

 

[Taenqyrhae]

I feel like I should remind you in a world, where many people cannot reasonably expect to live to see their 20th name day, getting pregnant earliest possible and at 15 is quite the sensible thing to do.

eta: our own world is only some 170 years past the time where that was generally true, too.

Nonsense, most people lived to see their 20th name day, and if you made it out of infancy and early childhood, it was probable that you would live to at least your 40s or 50s.  The average age being in the 30s didn't mean that 30-ish was considered old age and that people older than that were rare, it meant that having about half of your children die before they reach the age of 4 REALLY drives the average down.  It was not considered unusual for people to live into their 60s and 70s, not at all.  In medieval times, commoners usually waited until someone was pregnant before they got married, and because girls matured much slower than they do in modern times (average age for first period being 15 instead of 11), most commoners married in their late teens or early 20s - I remember one survey of church records showed that in 15th century England, the average age for a girl to marry was 19 and the average age for a man was 22, not too different from modern times.  Nobles often married much younger for diplomatic reasons, but usually the child bride would live with her parents until she was considered a grown woman. 

Modern times are weird - we are actually returning to a more normal reproductive cycle despite the earlier periods due to nutrition.  In the 1950s, teen pregnancy was much more common than in modern times.  The average age for first marriage and first child keeps going up as sexual education and the economy improves.

[dornishdame]

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east", said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child."

1 - The sun may already have done this.  In The Mystery Knight, Ser John the Fiddler (actually Daemon II Blackfyre) has dreamed of the 'birth' or 'hatching' (rise?) of a dragon at Whitewalls. The 'dragon' turned out to be Egg, and as metaphorical a dragon as Baelor Breakspear in The Hedge Knight.  So, we know that in prophecy, sigils can be used symbolically. The dragon in The Mystery Knight symbolizes Egg standing up to the plate and showing his colors as a true Targaryen.  Perhaps it can be argued that Quentyn did something similar.  After years away from his family, fostered by the Yronwoods, Quentyn met with his father and agreed to go east in search of Daenerys and her dragons.  In doing so, he feels as if he is carrying out the will of his house.  He is standing up to the plate and showing that he is worthy of the name Martell.  He starts this journey in the west, in Westeros, and ends it in the east, in Meereen, dying from burns sustained while attempting dragon taming. The sigil of the Martells is the Sun and Spear, and Quaithe has already used the 'sun' metaphor in relation to the Martells by the time Quentyn arrives in Meereen.  Quentyn would then be the sun that rises in the west and sets in the east.   

2) In Dance, when Daenerys arrives in the Dothraki sea and begins to bleed, she notes that the flow of blood is heavier than she has ever experienced before; she also has difficulty remembering the last time she bled.  It has been conjectured before (and this theory I believe) that Daenerys is experiencing a miscarriage.  In Dance, Daenerys is asked to submit to inspection by Hizdahr's family, to prove that she is fertile. She refuses.  Her relationship with Daario was easily identifiable by the hostages she has at court, and the inspection may have been an attempt to verify that Daenerys was not pregnant at the time of her marriage (and therefore any child she bore would be her husband's).  If we continue this hypothesis (and kudos, btw, to whomever first came up with it) with the assumption that the poisoning was simply to abort any potential child in the same way that Hoster enforced Lysa's abortion, then it contributes to the miscarriage theory.  Going back to Mirri Maz Duur above, she tells Daenerys that with Rhaego's death, the Stallion that Mounts the World prophecy will not longer come true as she has effectively prevented his birth - what if the poisoner has now prevented the birth of the 'living child' Mirri mentions in her prophecy? After all, if Daenerys DID have a miscarriage in the Dothraki sea, then her womb has quickened again. 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east", said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child."

1 - The sun may already have done this.  In The Mystery Knight, Ser John the Fiddler (actually Daemon II Blackfyre) has dreamed of the 'birth' or 'hatching' (rise?) of a dragon at Whitewalls. The 'dragon' turned out to be Egg, and as metaphorical a dragon as Baelor Breakspear in The Hedge Knight.  So, we know that in prophecy, sigils can be used symbolically. The dragon in The Mystery Knight symbolizes Egg standing up to the plate and showing his colors as a true Targaryen.  Perhaps it can be argued that Quentyn did something similar.  After years away from his family, fostered by the Yronwoods, Quentyn met with his father and agreed to go east in search of Daenerys and her dragons.  In doing so, he feels as if he is carrying out the will of his house.  He is standing up to the plate and showing that he is worthy of the name Martell.  He starts this journey in the west, in Westeros, and ends it in the east, in Meereen, dying from burns sustained while attempting dragon taming. The sigil of the Martells is the Sun and Spear, and Quaithe has already used the 'sun' metaphor in relation to the Martells by the time Quentyn arrives in Meereen.  Quentyn would then be the sun that rises in the west and sets in the east.   

2) In Dance, when Daenerys arrives in the Dothraki sea and begins to bleed, she notes that the flow of blood is heavier than she has ever experienced before; she also has difficulty remembering the last time she bled.  It has been conjectured before (and this theory I believe) that Daenerys is experiencing a miscarriage.  In Dance, Daenerys is asked to submit to inspection by Hizdahr's family, to prove that she is fertile. She refuses.  Her relationship with Daario was easily identifiable by the hostages she has at court, and the inspection may have been an attempt to verify that Daenerys was not pregnant at the time of her marriage (and therefore any child she bore would be her husband's).  If we continue this hypothesis (and kudos, btw, to whomever first came up with it) with the assumption that the poisoning was simply to abort any potential child in the same way that Hoster enforced Lysa's abortion, then it contributes to the miscarriage theory.  Going back to Mirri Maz Duur above, she tells Daenerys that with Rhaego's death, the Stallion that Mounts the World prophecy will not longer come true as she has effectively prevented his birth - what if the poisoner has now prevented the birth of the 'living child' Mirri mentions in her prophecy? After all, if Daenerys DID have a miscarriage in the Dothraki sea, then her womb has quickened again. 

O yes. And the "seas" have already gone dry... Notice how the grass in the Dothraki Sea is dying by the time of Dany's last chapter. Mountains bowing in the wind like leaves could then be the destruction the other dragons are causing in Meereen, where stones of the piramids, iirc, are coming down.

And Dany bearing a living child.... Perhaps that hasn't happened yet, but perhaps it has, in the metaphorical way.. She is the mother of dragons, and in that sense, she has "birthed" three living children. She is the mother of all those she has freed from slavery, and in that sense, she has  "birthed" many 'children'...

[dornishdame]

O yes. And the "seas" have already gone dry... Notice how the grass in the Dothraki Sea is dying by the time of Dany's last chapter. Mountains bowing in the wind like leaves could then be the destruction the other dragons are causing in Meereen, where stones of the piramids, iirc, are coming down.

And Dany bearing a living child.... Perhaps that hasn't happened yet, but perhaps it has, in the metaphorical way.. She is the mother of dragons, and in that sense, she has "birthed" three living children. She is the mother of all those she has freed from slavery, and in that sense, she has  "birthed" many 'children'...

Excellent thinking - I had completely overlooked the extra points you made and thought that there were still pieces of it still to happen but perhaps that is not the case!   I wonder what this could mean for Daenerys if she returns to Vaes Dothrak with the khalasar she has met up with?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Excellent thinking - I had completely overlooked the extra points you made and thought that there were still pieces of it still to happen but perhaps that is not the case!   I wonder what this could mean for Daenerys if she returns to Vaes Dothrak with the khalasar she has met up with?

"Only the crones of the dosh khaleen dwell permanently in the sacred city, them and their slaves and servants," Ser Jorah replied, "yet Vaes Dothrak is large enough to house every man of every khalasar, should all the khals return to the Mother at once. The crones have prophesied that one day that will come to pass, and so Vaes Dothrak must be ready to embrace all its children."

(A Game of Thrones - Daenerys IV)

This passage might be very important for that.

[Lost Melnibonean]

In addition to the smoky dragon Summer sees, "there was a roar and crash that made the earth jump under his feet," and of course, Osha notes that they "made enough noise to wake a dragon." 

The crash was probably the collaapsing First Keep, but still...

[Lost Melnibonean]

The day was grey and bitter cold, and the dogs would not take the scent.

The big black bitch had taken one sniff at the bear tracks, backed off, and skulked back to the pack with her tail between her legs. The dogs huddled together miserably on the riverbank as the wind snapped at them. Chett felt it too, biting through his layers of black wool and boiled leather. It was too bloody cold for man or beast, but here they were.

Prologue, Storm

They were tracking the unbear that storme the Fist. 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

It is possible Olenna was sending Varys a message when she met with Sansa during the lunch they invited her for in KL. She's speaking to Butterbumps, of course, getting him to sing louder so Sansa won't be afraid to speak, but there might be a message hidden for Varys in what she says, 

Are you whispering at me, you fat fool? I don’t pay you for whispers. Sing!

With the "I don't pay you for whispers" meaning that, what he had supplied her with so far (lemon cakes are Sansa's favorite) was not good enough, and instead of 'whispering' to her, he'll need to come with something better (and bigger, hence "sing"). "Whispers" and "sing" is then also a reference to the "little birds".

Especialy if you consider that earlier, Olenna stated

That Varys creature seemed to think we should be grateful for the information.

Meaning that, though Olenna uses the information Varys gave her thus far, she is aware of what he is trying to do, and is telling him here that, if he wants her gratitude (and thus, a favor from her), he needs to give her something better.