Dating: Not just for mating

[Elder Sister]

Ugh.  Y'all are getting way too explicit for me.  Can't we just talk about komodo dragons?  Although Lily did make me snort.

 

I have a guy messaging me that seems like a decent, kind, hardworking, nice looking gent.  There has got to be a catch.  GOT TO BE.

 

I do not attract normal people.  I think we all know this now.  It's why so many of you like me so much.  YOU ARE NUTS.

 

He's wanting to exchange digits and I'm not ready yet after getting burned by Mr. Selfie.  I think these internet dating sites encourage too much intimacy too quickly.  Before you even get to know someone, you're supposed to be going on a date.  It seems so abnormal to me.  

 

It's kind of heartening to have this much action going on in my love life.  I feel like a siren.  A komodo dragon riding siren.

[sperry]

Gentlemen, there is a DAMN good reason the word "job" is in "blowjob". Lots of things that are worth doing properly take a great deal of work and are likely to suffocate you.

 

 

 

Never looks like a whole lot of fun.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

 
 
 
Never looks like a whole lot of fun.

Agreed. I'm sure it's fun for some, but I don't imagine it is for most.

[Prince Alexander]

well, no, it's not unrelated. If your advice is to not do something you don't like, and you don't like sex, why aren't you following your own advice?

 

Yeah, I'm completely invested in their pleasure. Way more interesting than being in it myself.

 

That's absolutely your choice and priority

 

When I have sex I want both of us to enjoy without having to go out of our way and doing something unpleasant to please the other

 

If you want to please someone by doing something you don't like, that's cool, but I've personally never heard of this kind of sexual relationships working out... ever

 

edit: and yes, the biggest offender is typically oral for both gender

[KiDisaster]

When I have sex I want both of us to enjoy without having to go out of our way and doing something unpleasant to please the other

 

If you want to please someone by doing something you don't like, that's cool, but I've personally never heard of this kind of sexual relationships working out... ever

 

This isn't what anyone was talking about though. The point was about people who are solely invested in their own pleasure, not people who won't do anything and everything their partners want even if they can't stand doing it. 

[Arbor Gold]

. In fact, if they don't orgasm before i do, i feel great shame. 

No pressure...

ETA: sex shouldn't be so results-oriented imo

[Glaurung]

It's an uphill battle as a straight woman. Because #1- tons of women fake orgasms because it is just easier than teaching some people. Especially if you don't plan on sleeping with someone again, it's the simplest way to conclude the evening without making the situation even less enjoyable by dealing with abruptly telling someone to stop or that they are doing it poorly. This sucks though because it rewards the wrong thing. I have never faked, but this has meant dealing with a lot of being told I must just have difficulty orgasming (I don't), or that WELL MY EX LIKED THIS. Which brings another side of it- female anatomy works in many ways for many people. What you do really awesomely for one person may be the exact wrong way to do it for someone else. Or it might be the wrong act for them. I am 100% convinced the majority of being good in bed is not technique or equipment, it is ability to communicate and listen on the subject, so both your needs and your partner's are understood and made important.

 

It definitely is an uphill battle.  Guys are clueless to start(and for good reason), and many never get a clue.  Yet it is difficult for a woman to express what she likes, because society tries to inhibit women sexually or shame them for actually enjoying sex, but then calling them frigid or difficult if they don't.  It's a no win situation for some women and it creates a vicious cycle.  I've always been an inquisitive lover, asking questions to find out what my partner likes, but even then it has been hard to get some women to open up even when they knew I was eager for answers and that I would not judge them.  It has a strong hold on many women.  It was odd for me to see this, because I grew up in a very open family.  Yes we grew up in the bible belt, very religious, but yet our family was very open(maybe due to our French ancestry..).  My mother had a strong libido and she talked to us about sex, as did our father.  We were taught to not be shamed about our bodies or desires, and my sisters received the same message.  We knew that if mom and dad's bedroom was closed, it was best to go over to a friend's house for the afternoon.  So, I think it helps to have open communication with your family from the start.  I plan on my wife and I being open with our daughter and teaching her to not be ashamed of her body. 

 

I agree with the 2nd and 3rd bolded parts as well.  Every woman is different.  There are some things that tend to be more likely to work, but the most important thing is to have an open line of communication.  

[Relic]

No pressure...

ETA: sex shouldn't be so results-oriented imo

the great shame part was a quote from some hockey movie :p and I agree with your second statement to a large extent, however I simply can't take enjoyment (any longer) when my partner does not.

[Glaurung]

Glaurung - reread my post and you'll see i said so many people don't believe sex is pleasurable for women, not so many men. When women are never taught it's supposed to be pleasurable they often won't ever know what is pleasurable for them, let alone speak up to instruct a man in what is pleasurable. That's not a majority but it's still much higher than it should be, when sex ed is shit and you still have legitimate scientists questioning whether the g spot exists, people not believing the clitoris exists (wtf? Any man that jokes about it being hard to find is announcing he is awful in bed) you are going to have these problems. Hell you have women so ashamed of their bodies they won't even touch their own genitals.

Sex ed should teach about pleasure for both sexes, it should teach relationships, communication and so on. But parents would freak so instead it just teaches health related stuff (if there's even that much). It's one of the areas I hate the parents getting to veto what their children learn, the child has a right to the education, the parent doesn't own them, but that's a derail.

I know it seems silly and amusing but I really loved Sweden coming up with a female equivalent of wanking (the word) because over time once the initial laugh wears off I think it will help normalise masturbation for women and it will be seen the same as male masturbation - something pretty much everyone does. And kids growing up in that environment will know to touch themselves and learn their body.

ETA
:rofl: at lily

 

I agree with pretty much everything you said.  Though I disagree that women are taught that sex isn't supposed to be pleasurable.  Though I think there are mixed messages.  You're taught that sex can be pleasurable, but you're also taught that this kind of pleasure is sin, so you're a sinner if you're taking pleasure(unless you're married). I think actually they are told it is supposed to be good, but when they finally experience it, often times they find out they didn't enjoy it much(if at all) and they feel like something is wrong with them.  But they're also taught that sex is private and sinful, so it is a taboo and they don't know how to approach it and figure it out.  I read a story the other day about a woman who had vaginismus and sex was painful for her.  She thought that sex was supposed to be enjoyable, but instead due to her condition, it was painful for her(any kind of penetration, even a finger).  She didn't seek help and just pretended to like sex for years because she didn't want people to know that she didn't like sex.  She finally got the help she needed and can actually enjoy sex now(only took a decade or two).  I can't imagine what she went through.  And the fact that some women never touch themselves is shocking to me...  I had a gf once who didn't enjoy sex.  I couldn't do anything to please her.  She finally told me one day that she had never touched herself.  I was like "if you don't even know how to please yourself, how do you expect me to please you?".  I tried to encourage her to explore herself, and she claims she did, but I think her upbringing(very religious household) is ingrained too deeply. That was many years ago.  I hope that she was able to finally find herself(pun intended). 

 

No pressure...

ETA: sex shouldn't be so results-oriented imo

 

No it shouldn't.  It took me a while to understand that my wife is not going to orgasm every time.  She gets there most of the time, but there are days where it just isn't likely to happen for her or the work isn't worth it for her.  She's also informed me that although the orgasm is much preferred, she can still enjoy sex and the intimacy without it.  Sometimes if it doesn't happen, she'll finish herself off after.  I'll help of course.  

 

At the same time, I sometimes have problems reaching orgasm.  I take a long time to get there generally, and if I'm drunk sometimes I can't at all.  Also, I was having sex for 3 years before I had my first orgasm from penetration.  I could take care of myself in a short time, but I had problems getting there during sex.  I think that since I'm a shy and nervous person, that maybe my nerves were just getting the best of me in those early days.  Also, my wife is the only woman who has ever been able to get me there through oral or by hand.  And it took her a long time before that ever happened.  

 

Since I had problems reaching orgasm, every woman I was with thought there was something wrong with her.  Because...ya know...all guys orgasm, and most do it quickly.  Well....not all guys do and there was nothing wrong with them, but it was hard to get them to understand that.  They didn't take it well and it was embarrassing for me.  I think I understand why a woman would want to fake an orgasm to spare her partner's feelings. I even tried it myself once.   

[Arbor Gold]

I simply can't take enjoyment (any longer) when my partner does not.

Not to speak for everyone, but it seems unfair to assume that no orgasm = no enjoyment.

[aceluby]

 I feel like a siren.  A komodo dragon riding siren.

 

Best.  Image.  Ever!

 

Had 2nd date last night and it went really well.  Cool girl w/ a lot of shared interests.  We're going out again later this week.

 

As to the discussion, I agree that the best way to become a better lover is like with all things, you need to get feedback on what you're doing right and doing wrong.  You also need to give the same feedback to your partner and keep that line of communication open.  It's a learning experience.  My best lover would constantly tell me where to go and what to do.  It took a lot of pressure off me, honestly.  

[Lily Valley]

Ugh.  Y'all are getting way too explicit for me.  Can't we just talk about komodo dragons?  Although Lily did make me snort.

 

I have a guy messaging me that seems like a decent, kind, hardworking, nice looking gent.  There has got to be a catch.  GOT TO BE.

 

I do not attract normal people.  I think we all know this now.  It's why so many of you like me so much.  YOU ARE NUTS.

 

He's wanting to exchange digits and I'm not ready yet after getting burned by Mr. Selfie.  I think these internet dating sites encourage too much intimacy too quickly.  Before you even get to know someone, you're supposed to be going on a date.  It seems so abnormal to me.  

 

It's kind of heartening to have this much action going on in my love life.  I feel like a siren.  A komodo dragon riding siren.

 

Sorry, ES.  There was a bit too much back-patting going on around here for me to keep my $0.02 to myself.

 

BTW, you will not be alone in Seattle in a few weeks.  I can be a very intimidating date inspector if Mr. High School misbehaves.  :P

 

Have fun!

 

 

 

 

Never looks like a whole lot of fun.

The amount of pornography devoted to this delicate subject suggests you are probably an outlier in your opinion.

[Elder Sister]

Thanks, Lily!  My high school buddy won't be in Spokane; he's in Seattle.  That's where our date is.  But he's an awesome human being, so I am not worried about him.  I may have someone in Spokane that you need to vet.  I tend to collect extremely disturbed, lonely people who try to hold my hand and stuff.  I cannot explain this.  So thank you for the help.  It's appreciated.

 

Okay, wild and wooly thread friends - I have a question for you.  I have asked the lovely Kay Fury for her opinion, and I also want yours.

 

I've been talking to a very nice man on Match.  Out of the blue, he asked me a question about my hair, is it long or short?  I have pics of both on my profile.  I told him it was long.  Which it is.  He said that was good, because he prefers women with long hair.   But the question, out of the blue, when we're talking about other things, just struck me as kind of rude.  And most of you know that I had a double mastectomy 5 years ago.  If my hair is a deal breaker, what is he going to say about a woman who looks like she got attacked by a shark?  The whole thing just put me off.  I haven't responded back at all.  I don't know what to say back to him.  He's going on chatting about stuff and I'm just turned off totally.  I want to ask him what he thinks of women who have had to have their boobs cut off.  Does he prefer that?  And then tell him to go screw himself.  I know that I might be overreacting, though.

 

I frankly don't care to go out with someone who is this superficial.  I'm not in the market for a hook up.  I would like to find a romantic partner who is kind, funny, and values the same things I do. 

 

I know I'm operating from a different place than most people.  Getting amputations after a cancer diagnosis will do that to a person.   Am I reading too much into this?

[KiDisaster]

 

Okay, wild and wooly thread friends

 

For a second I thought this was going to be a body hair related question and thought "finally, it's my time to be useful". And then it wasn't. 

 

Really though, I don't think you're reading too much into it. He did come off as pretty rude and superficial with that comment, implying that short hair would have been a problem. On the other hand, it is possible he was just curious and simply phrased his response really poorly? :dunno:

 

He could have said something like "You look great with long hair." instead of implying that your choice of hairstyle should conform to his preferences. Which is what his reply sounded like to me. 

[sperry]

 

 

The amount of pornography devoted to this delicate subject suggests you are probably an outlier in your opinion.

 

 

I'm speaking of the giving, not the getting.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

I'd wager he would have given the same answer no matter what length your hair is but if you find it off putting I think that's all you need. I once had a woman ask me on a date if I was well endowed and was totally put off. So go with your instinct. I would hope that he would be understanding in regards to a mastectomy.

[TerraPrime]

Re: Glaurang

 

Thanks for writing those. I think there are some myths concerning male sexuality, just as there are for female sexuality. I've had men who actually don't orgasm but who still enjoy many forms of sex. For many, it's a health-related issue because the medications they are on interfere with their ability to orgasm, but they still have a libido and they still enjoy the physical intimacy of sex. The pressure to "perform" is real, for men, and it can be add a lot of stress to sex, as well as do a number to a guy's self esteem and self image. 

 

 

Re: Elder Sis

 

I think it's both. 

 

I think the sort of statements of "do you have X trait? Yes? Great, I think that's so attractive" is, in general, really bad reflections on the speaker. It gives off the impression that you're only of interest to them because of trait X, and not because they're interested in you as a person. Racial minorities experience this a lot. We had a yellow fever thread(s) on this very topic. What that guy did to you was a milder variant of that. What he should have said is "I see pictures of you with both long and short hair. I think you wear long hair really well and it makes your face look even prettier." Or something along those lines. 

 

At the same time, we are all a little shallow. Attractiveness, as subjectively defined by each individual, is indeed a requirement for dating and sexing. One of the hardest things about dating and date seeking is that you will encounter judgment from others where you are not deemed as attractive. Depending on the empathy and tact of the other person, the emotional hurt can be large or small. But we all hurt a little if someone whom we are interested in finds us to be not attractive. Vanity, ego, self worth, whatever. In a way, it's good for our souls because it keeps us humble, ;-) 

 

That said, because you're a survivor of cancer, with its associated after effects, I think this is going to be a difficult issue for you as you move forward with dating. Ideally, the other person should have a chance to let you know if that's a deal break for them, or not. In practice, most people are tactless boors and it will not be a fun experience for you. So understandably, you're wary of this topic. I don't have a good answer for this, except to say that at some point, when you're ready, you will have to allow him to show you whether he's the right person or not, without rejecting him based on your fear that he might reject you. Perhaps there are social groups, virtual or in person, of breast cancer survivors where you can talk to others in similar situations and learn from their experience in getting back into the dating scene?

[Mexal]

 

Re: Glaurang

 

Thanks for writing those. I think there are some myths concerning male sexuality, just as there are for female sexuality. I've had men who actually don't orgasm but who still enjoy many forms of sex. For many, it's a health-related issue because the medications they are on interfere with their ability to orgasm, but they still have a libido and they still enjoy the physical intimacy of sex. The pressure to "perform" is real, for men, and it can be add a lot of stress to sex, as well as do a number to a guy's self esteem and self image. 

 

I'll third this. The pressure to perform on men is very real. I used to have issues that totally fucked with my confidence. I'm a good looking guy with no issues chatting up anyone but I was really shit at making a move and I think a lot of that had to do with my sexual confidence. This hasn't been an issue for me in years but in my early to mid 20s, it was very much real and it's something that tends to get overlooked during these sex discussions that tend to focus on women. 

[Elder Sister]

Re: Elder Sis

 

I think it's both. 

 

I think the sort of statements of "do you have X trait? Yes? Great, I think that's so attractive" is, in general, really bad reflections on the speaker. It gives off the impression that you're only of interest to them because of trait X, and not because they're interested in you as a person. Racial minorities experience this a lot. We had a yellow fever thread(s) on this very topic. What that guy did to you was a milder variant of that. What he should have said is "I see pictures of you with both long and short hair. I think you wear long hair really well and it makes your face look even prettier." Or something along those lines. 

 

At the same time, we are all a little shallow. Attractiveness, as subjectively defined by each individual, is indeed a requirement for dating and sexing. One of the hardest things about dating and date seeking is that you will encounter judgment from others where you are not deemed as attractive. Depending on the empathy and tact of the other person, the emotional hurt can be large or small. But we all hurt a little if someone whom we are interested in finds us to be not attractive. Vanity, ego, self worth, whatever. In a way, it's good for our souls because it keeps us humble, ;-) 

 

That said, because you're a survivor of cancer, with its associated after effects, I think this is going to be a difficult issue for you as you move forward with dating. Ideally, the other person should have a chance to let you know if that's a deal break for them, or not. In practice, most people are tactless boors and it will not be a fun experience for you. So understandably, you're wary of this topic. I don't have a good answer for this, except to say that at some point, when you're ready, you will have to allow him to show you whether he's the right person or not, without rejecting him based on your fear that he might reject you. Perhaps there are social groups, virtual or in person, of breast cancer survivors where you can talk to others in similar situations and learn from their experience in getting back into the dating scene?

Thanks, Terra.  I really appreciate your thoughtful response.

 

As strange as this may sound, I'm at peace with myself.  I don't mind my flat chest, and I'm more than a little proud of my scars.  They are wicked, and they remind me how freaking tough I really am.  Having said that, I do know that I will be judged, and sometimes harshly, because of what I've experienced.  If I had opted to get reconstruction it would be the same thing; we are never the same after this procedure, regardless of what we choose to do.  I did therapy and support groups for breast cancer survivors, and it helped tremendously.

 

I'm choosing to use my own 'defect' as a culling tool, but I don't want to be so sensitive to the issue that I disregard someone who's just having an awkward moment.  Kay F. suggested I continue to chat with him and just watch for signs of superficiality.  I think that's what I'll do.

 

And I understand that I'm damaged goods.  It's not a problem; I don't expect every man to come flocking after me.  But after 5 years, I think I'm at a good place where I am happy with myself, flaws and all.  I expect no less from future partners.

[Lily Valley]

Thanks, Lily!  My high school buddy won't be in Spokane; he's in Seattle.  That's where our date is.  But he's an awesome human being, so I am not worried about him.  I may have someone in Spokane that you need to vet.  I tend to collect extremely disturbed, lonely people who try to hold my hand and stuff.  I cannot explain this.  So thank you for the help.  It's appreciated.

 

Okay, wild and wooly thread friends - I have a question for you.  I have asked the lovely Kay Fury for her opinion, and I also want yours.

 

I've been talking to a very nice man on Match.  Out of the blue, he asked me a question about my hair, is it long or short?  I have pics of both on my profile.  I told him it was long.  Which it is.  He said that was good, because he prefers women with long hair.   But the question, out of the blue, when we're talking about other things, just struck me as kind of rude.  And most of you know that I had a double mastectomy 5 years ago.  If my hair is a deal breaker, what is he going to say about a woman who looks like she got attacked by a shark?  The whole thing just put me off.  I haven't responded back at all.  I don't know what to say back to him.  He's going on chatting about stuff and I'm just turned off totally.  I want to ask him what he thinks of women who have had to have their boobs cut off.  Does he prefer that?  And then tell him to go screw himself.  I know that I might be overreacting, though.

 

I frankly don't care to go out with someone who is this superficial.  I'm not in the market for a hook up.  I would like to find a romantic partner who is kind, funny, and values the same things I do. 

 

I know I'm operating from a different place than most people.  Getting amputations after a cancer diagnosis will do that to a person.   Am I reading too much into this?

That really shows a lack of tact.  With that said, go for a coffee anyway, some people just suck at written interactions.  I usually give people the benefit of the doubt on this stuff until I have a face to face.  That said, I have no patience at all for any sign of fuckwaddery once a face to face has happened.

 

I think Terra covered your survivor concerns pretty well.  He's right, dating is really hard.  

 

On the bright side, we are going to a magical place of flirtation and fun with people who share our interests pretty soon.  Do you want one of my "Team Cougar" T-shirts?  Bringing you one anyway.

 

 

Best of luck.  :)