R+L=J v.153

[Lord Varys]

The best guess for that is that they indeed burned down the tower and used the rabble to make the graves. Or there were some peasants out there in the mountains they forced to work on that. The fact that no men supposedly were with Lyanna at the tower doesn't mean Ned couldn't have brought additional people out of the neighborhood from whom he concealed the child.

 

UL,

 

well, I think the point there is simply 

 

1. Aerys' (and anyone's) curiosity as to what his son had been doing all those days as well as

 

2. Rhaegar not having a reason to keep it a secret.

 

I mean, put yourself into his shoes. Would you shut up if the love of your life was pregnant with your child? Remember, you don't expect to die soon, nor do you think there would ever be a reason to hide that child with Lord Stark whom you are going to smash at the Trident.

 

Or put yourself into Aerys' shoes - more difficult I know, but just say you are suspicious about everything, especially things that don't make any sense to you. Now, your son has disappeared for months, now he is back on your command, but you don't care where he had been or what he had been doing with that woman you know he was with? Not very likely.

 

Rhaegar wasn't suddenly the king in this scenario - he would have to answer to him if he confronted him about that, and one assumes that if he had any close relationship to his mother he would also answered her questions rather than, say, you know, 'this is no concern of yours, woman'. Even Chelsted might have confronted him, the man was the King's Hand now, and he spoke with the King's Voice, and we know he was one of Aerys' cronies.

 

But anyway, the obvious answer when a young and healthy woman who dies after having sexual intercourse over a longer period of time is that she died in childbirth. That is explanation #1. If nobody ever thought about that those people are utter fools. And if George doesn't want to reveal stuff about Lyanna right now, then he would not mention that since Lyanna being pregnant would be too big a clue, presumably. Not to mention that, vice versa, people like Cersei or others would mock 'barren Lyanna' if it was really believed she couldn't give Rhaegar any children. The fact that they had sex is established.

[purple-eyes]

I think Aerys and other people of KL would certainly ask Rhaegar why he abducted Lyanna and missed for several months. 

And I think Rhaegar had to answer these questions at least a little bit. 

The only answer he would give would be "I loved Lyanna very much so I carried her off and stayed with her". 

He would not mention anything about pregnancy because this may raise a risk for the baby. 

he would not mention anything about the prophecy either since it is kind of ridiculous for most of the people. 

And his answer is the reason why Targ camp (like Dany, Barri) said "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna" stuff. 

[UnmaskedLurker]

LV--

 

I have to say I am still baffled by your logic. Rhaegar stays away for a long time. He tells no one where he is. He does not send work back to KL to let anyone know where he is. Also keep in mind that Lyanna is not really on everyone's mind. When Brandon goes to KL, he only demand to see Rhaegar -- he does not demand for the return of Lyanna. I have always found that a little strange -- but there you are. A time when most people would think Lyanna would be mentioned -- but she isn't. And Rhaegar has ever less reason to mention Lyanna to anyone. So I will play your hypothetical game:

 

If I am the crown prince and my "second wife" is 6-8 months pregnant and stuck in a tower in Dorne, and I go back to KL where there is intrigue around every corner and the enemy is starting to win the war against my family -- no, I don't mention Lyanna. She is not something I would deal with on any level until I win at the Trident and put down the rebels. I have nothing to gain by talking about her. The people at KL are not really my friends. I don't socialize with them. Lyanna is a potential political problem for me that I have to deal with carefully. So, no, I do not mention her at all to anyone (other than a very close confidant -- but then that information would remain unknown generally).

 

If I am Aerys, and I believe I need Rhaegar to lead the army, no, I don't waste time grilling Rheagar on where he has been and what he has been doing. Keep in mind that their relationship is nothing like a modern father-son relationship. Aerys is increasingly going crazy, and they were never really close in the first place. I doubt they ever talk about hopes or dreams or goals. And Aerys knows that Rhaegar was away for a reason -- bringing up the issue may not even illicit an honest response and can only work to increase friction between them at at time that they need to work together. Aerys, while nuts was not really stupid, would almost certainly wait until after the war is over to try to get to the bottom of what Rhaegar was doing. And if by chance Aerys tried to ask Rhaegar about where he was or what he was doing, I doubt Rhaegar would have given Aerys a straight answer. Rhaegar was the new war general -- no one was going to bother him with questions about Lyanna or where he was. Not his mother, not the Hand -- not even Aerys -- no one. It was not going to happen as long as the war was raging.

 

And "sex" has not been established. Most people assumed either rape or consensual sex, but no one who was at ToJ reported back that sex actually happened between Rhaegar and Lyanna. And the official story is that Lyanna died of fever. Disease likely was rampant at that time -- especially during war. I don't think anyone would assume that she died in childbirth. People got sick and died of a fever all the time in Westeros. And the "cover story" about the stillborn child is not helpful in deflecting suspicion. It confirms she was pregnant and potentially raises more questions. Creating a fake dead fetus does not help Ned to cover up the truth. If people know for a fact that Lyanna was pregnant -- then Ned might have been forced into such a cover story. But absent confirmation that she was ever pregnant, Ned's best play is to keep the explanation simple -- she died of a fever. The more complicated the cover story, the more room for people to question and realize the holes in the story. You simply are adding a complication with no benefit.

[Lord Varys]

UL,

 

well, everyone knows that Rhaegar has abducted Lyanna, right? As does Aerys ('everyone' was supposed to refer to 'everyone at court'). We don't know if he thought he needed Rhaegar, all we know is that he wanted Rhaegar to lead his armies. That's a difference. It is not clear whether they reconciled or whether Rhaegar was blackmailed, but if Aerys decided to threaten his son he had all the cards in his hand. He had proven what he could do when he killed Brandon and Rickard, and Rhaegar would have believed had he threatened to do the same to Elia, his children, or Rhaegar himself.

 

But the Aerys-Rhaegar relationship is a mystery. There are no hints that they personally hated each other. I think there could have been some sort reconciliation, and Lyanna would have been no 'complete secret'. Else Dany would never have heard the story about her brother dying for the woman he loved, and calling her name with his last breath, right? Viserys could only have gotten that story from either his parents, Rhaegar himself, or people close to both of them. But if Rhaegar didn't say anything even Willem Darry or Rhaella couldn't have told him.

 

And we don't know what Brandon really said or did in KL. We have one sentence summarizing what was going on there. We don't know what Brandon's exact words were when he arrived there, what he said when Aerys confronted him, and so on. The idea that Aerys didn't realize (or wanted to know) what he was up to makes little sense, not to mention that he had Varys at his side who should have been able to investigate this mystery even if nobody had believed Brandon or Rickard. There was actually a trial going on there, and we don't know anything about that. We don't even know for a certainty for what crime they were accused. 

 

I'm really not sure why you'd think that the people at KL aren't your friends if you are Rhaegar. Some surely want to gain your favor, want to spend time with you, fight for you, die for you - and not your mad father. You are the Prince of Dragonstone and the future king. If the people there are your enemies and you don't dare socialize with them you better have no plans taking on your father after the Trident, right? And you still have friends - Lewyn Martell (perhaps), Richard Lonmouth (if still alive),

 

But okay, now you have convinced me that Jon Snow is actually not Lyanna's son since, you know, we have no proof that they had had sex. Why do you think people who would have more information than we about the war and everything else because they are actually in-universe have to be more stupid than we are?

[Mithras]

LV--

 

I have to say I am still baffled by your logic. 

 

There is nothing wrong with you ;)

[UnmaskedLurker]

LV--

 

The first three paragraphs above I basically agree with but really don't go to the issue at hand at all. They are at best quibbles over some issue I might have glossed over or oversimplified. Fine. I accept any technical corrections in those paragraphs.

 

But your last two paragraphs make no sense to me. Of course Rhaegar likely was friendly with some people at court. I simply mean that he likely only had a very few close confidants. And there is too much intrigue in court to discuss sensitive information publicly. I don't mean that they are his enemies -- but there are factions and Rhaegar is of his own faction -- others might be in a different faction (closer to Aerys, perhaps). So that paragraph completely mischaracterizes what I wrote above. The point remains that Rhaegar is not going to just casually talk about his private affairs in public in court.

 

As to your last paragraph, now you are just being snarky for the sake of it. I don't know what you think your snark proves. Yes, we can form a logical conclusion that Rhaegar and Lyanna likely had sex. But we don't know for 100% certainty. But even if we as the readers were to have access to someone's thoughts that would confirm it, that does not mean that others know it. But that is basically irrelevant, as I conceded that most people seem to assume that Rhaegar and Lyanna had sex. Robert seems to directly accuse Rhaegar of rape. Others talk about his lady love. I get it. I think most people assume some level of sexual activity. So what?

 

Every affair does not lead to pregnancy. Sex -- even over a number of months -- does not always lead to pregnancy. Maybe people do have to be stupid not to suspect that Jon is really Lyanna's son, but inventing a stillborn child that no one ever sees the body of does not diminish the likelihood of suspicion. What Ned has done to diminish the likelihood is to keep the details to a bare minimum and paint himself in such a bad light (compared to the honor people think he normally holds to) so that no one questions that he might be lying in a way that would make himself look good if people really knew the truth. An invented fetus just adds another issue for people to ponder over and think harder about.

[SFDanny]

SFDanny,

 

the Varys question there is whether Varys actually would have endangered the life of Rhaegar's son if he had figured out who Jon was? I don't know that, but considering that a child looking like Lyanna/Ned Stark wouldn't be of any use in his Targaryen plans there is good chance that he wouldn't have done anything about. Nothing suggests that he ever wanted to drive a wedge between Robert and Ned. In fact, I still have the feeling Varys wanted to recruit Ned for his cause as soon as his game began. And by that time Robert himself, and not Ned would have to be removed.

 

My take on Varys is that he wants information to hold over others in order to force them to do what he wants, or barring that to use in nudging people in the direction he wants. If he gets information that Ned is hiding Rhaegar's and Lyanna's son from Robert I think he would use the information if needed. I don't think he has that information, no matter what his suspicions are. Otherwise, the relationship between Ned and Varys would read very differently than it does in the books. I have little doubt, however, he would look for such things if he thinks they might be useful.

[Lord Varys]

SFDanny,

 

I basically agree with you there. But then, there might be a reason why we never got a POV depicting Varys' next visit to his cell. We get the impression that the veiled threats in the conversations we witnessed were enough to sway him, but we don't know that for sure. Ned could have become an asset for a Targaryen restoration if he hadn't been executed - especially if Cersei had been forced to exchange him for Jaime, subsequently restoring him to the Lordship of Winterfell. No idea, though, if that is ever investigated further. But then, Littlefinger's involvement in Ned's execution most likely will become revealed at one point.

 

UL,

 

point up there was that if Aerys threatened Rhaegar he most likely would have been able to force him. You don't lie to a man who will burn your wife and children alive if you don't comply.

 

The point there is that Rhaegar would only keep information about Lyanna a secret if we assume he would think it dangerous to reveal it, or if he could actually remain silent - and we don't know that. In any scenario I can imagine Rhaegar would look weird to pretty much everyone he talks to, especially since those people would have had much more detailed reports about what he has done, and countless theories about those things there were no reports about. Unless Aerys didn't care about Rhaegar and Lyanna disappearing, he would have tried to find them long before he sent out Hightower (and that's confirmed since he wanted to make Rhaegar Hand when he fired Merryweather, and only chose Connington because he could not find Rhaegar - indicating that he tried and failed to find him).

Rhaegar doesn't have to talk public at court. It is enough if he talks to Aerys, his mother, Elia, or anyone at court for the rebels to find out later on. We all know that Ned most likely had hints as to where Lyanna was, so somebody actually knew. Perhaps Lonmouth was actually with Rhaegar at the tower and returned with him to later tell Ned where to find him? And ML has that weird notion that Rhaegar may have confessed everything to Ethan Glover after his return - you know, since pretty much everyone would convey 'secret information' to some guy you have no known relationship to - but we only differ in the person he may have confided in. Perhaps Aerys already knew loosely where Rhaegar was, and did not actually send Gerold to find him but rather to fetch him back. If Aerys had Varys search for Rhaegar it is not unlikely that he found out where he was. The Prince of Dragonstone can't hope to hide among his people unless we assume him disguising himself in an Egg-like fashion (no report that Rhaegar was bald when Rhaegar saw him again, though). But even then, he would be on the road with two very prominent knights (even if they did not wear white) and a tomboy girl. Such a group would not remain unnoticed for long.

[UnmaskedLurker]

LV--

 

As often happens with these back-and-forth discussions, we have gone off track. I thought that the point you were making is that Ned would have likely made up a story about a sitllborn child (probably a girl, you suggested) in order to explain what happened the the pregnancy everyone (i.e., everyone still alive and living in Westeros after the sack of KL) likely knew about. I maintain that Rhaegar would not have discussed any pregnancy with anyone where the information would get out. Maybe he told his mother -- but she would not tell anyone and dies on DS within 8 months after the war ends. Maybe he told Elia but she dies in the sack. Maybe he told Aerys (I doubt it) but he died in the sack. You have presented no information or even plausible theory that makes it imperative that Ned invent a dead fetus. 

[Ygrain]

Lyanna engineering the 'abduction'? Maybe. I still remain unconvinced that Rhaegar initially set out with the intention of capturing Lyanna. I think that the Jon/Ygritte situation is supposed to give us some insight into the Rhaegar/Lyanna situation. Jon sets out on an unrelated mission but stumbles upon Ygritte and her group and ends up 'stealing' her. Neither party planned for this; it was just something that happened.

Alys ran away from an unwanted marriage, to a person of authority she has had a tie with, and he couldn't refuse her. What would Rhaegar do if Lyanna came to him, saying "help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi Rhaegar Targaryen, you're my only hope"? Dany does think that Rhaegar swooped in to save his northern girl from marriage, after all.

 

 

If he told Robert that she had died from a fever it isn't a lie. He just omitted the reason she had a fever.

The best lies are with a grain of truth ;-)

[Consigliere]

Alys ran away from an unwanted marriage, to a person of authority she has had a tie with, and he couldn't refuse her. What would Rhaegar do if Lyanna came to him, saying "help me, Obi-Wan Kenobi Rhaegar Targaryen, you're my only hope"? Dany does think that Rhaegar swooped in to save his northern girl from marriage, after all.

 

I'm not saying that this scenario is implausible or anything. My objection is that I don't feel that this was pre-planned. I think that Rhaegar and Lyanna running into each other was coincidence and Lyanna possibly asking for his help was on the spur of the moment. While the Alys/Jon situation bears similarities, there is a big difference. Alys was being forced into a marriage by Arnolf (a castellan) in an attempt to usurp the lordship of Karhold and who, according to Jon, has no right to make a marriage pact versus Lyanna's betrothal that was made by/agreed to by her father. I doubt that Rhaegar would intervene if he had time to think on it but is more likely to agree to help Lyanna if he were put on the spot.

[SFDanny]

Do you mean a "chance meeting"?

"Yet things might have gone far otherwise and far worse. When you think of the Battle of Pelennor, do not forget the battles in Dale and the valor of Durin's Folk. Think of what might have been. Dragon-fire and savage swords in Eriador, night in Rivendell. There might be no Queen in Gondor. We might now hope to return from the victory here to ruin and ash. But that has been adverted because I met Thorin Oakenshield one evening on the edge of spring in Bree. A chance-meeting, as we say in Middle-earth."

[Consigliere]

Do you mean a "chance meeting"?

"Yet things might have gone far otherwise and far worse. When you think of the Battle of Pelennor, do not forget the battles in Dale and the valor of Durin's Folk. Think of what might have been. Dragon-fire and savage swords in Eriador, night in Rivendell. There might be no Queen in Gondor. We might now hope to return from the victory here to ruin and ash. But that has been adverted because I met Thorin Oakenshield one evening on the edge of spring in Bree. A chance-meeting, as we say in Middle-earth."

 

Exactly, and IIRC, this "chance meeting" occured at the inn of the Prancing Pony. Perhaps Rhaegar and Lyanna running into each other occured at or near the Inn at the Crossroads. I think Lady Gwyn proposed this a while back.

[SFDanny]

Exactly, and IIRC, this "chance meeting" occured at the inn of the Prancing Pony. Perhaps Rhaegar and Lyanna running into each other occured at or near the Inn at the Crossroads. I think Lady Gwyn proposed this a while back.

Could well be. I like the idea very much as another Martin homage to JRRT.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

It seems kind of fishy that nobody is a bit curious about Lyanna's death .Everybody admits that Rhaegar loved Lyanna but only Bobby B  said that sex was had even though he called it rape . Nobody is a bit curious not the maesters ,midwives who are known for delivering children or Catelyn or Cercei whose mothers died in childbirth . Could it be they deluded themselves into a fairytale that Rhaegar kidnapped and was waiting to wars end to marry her .

[Alia of the knife]

Interesting piece on GRRM and his vision.

 

 

http://www.inquisitr.com/2357159/george-r-r-martin-reveals-game-of-thrones-will-finish-on-tv-first-and-more/

[Consigliere]

Really isn't anything in that article that we didn't already know. Except maybe Martin confirming that the show will finish first, which has been obvious for quite some time.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

While we already knew the show would finish first and that the ending would be bittersweet and that he admires Tolkien and seeks to copy some of what he did, we never (as far as I remember) had it spelled out like this:

 

[...] I love the way he ended ‘Lord of the Rings.’ It ends with victory, but it’s a bittersweet victory. Frodo is never whole again, and he goes away to the Undying Lands, and the other people live their lives. And the scouring of the Shire — brilliant piece of work, which I didn’t understand when I was 13 years old: ‘Why is this here? The story’s over?’ But every time I read it, I understand the brilliance of that segment more and more. All I can say is that’s the kind of tone I will be aiming for. Whether I achieve it or not, that will be up to people like you and my readers to judge.

(Same source as above)

 

What startled me is that my facts and feelings are the same. I did not get that triple/quadruple/etc. ending. King of Gondor, great. Lorien, Rohan, great, Isengard, what else... The scouring of the Shire? I never got that one, nor Bilbo and also Frodo leaving, when I read it at 13 years old either. So I'll be prepared if I live to read the end of ASoIaF.

[Consigliere]

Martin has spoken many times before about the Scouring of the Shire.

[Alia of the knife]

Really isn't anything in that article that we didn't already know. Except maybe Martin confirming that the show will finish first, which has been obvious for quite some time.

Actually I thought his Tolkien observations were interesting since he also distinguishes himself from Tolkien.