NFL Preseason 2015: Packers looking for a good diagnosis and Cris Carter is looking for Lee Majors

[DanteGabriel]

 

Well you have Jastremenski going into the bathroom with every ball for a prolonged amount of time. Could the self proclaimed DEFLATOR have been taking a piss... sure I suppose, do I buy that, no not one tiny bit. 

 

Also Dante man I am sorry that everything I post seems to rile you up. I was making a joke leading up to another joke (immaculate ballception, i know none of you probably did, but I chuckled :-P) to get to my point that TB12 absolutely knew what was going on. Again sorry.

 

Edit: oh and who i was referring to stating TB is innocent is mostly media news outlets. Admittedly I think I spend too much time on Barstool Sports which could be part of the problem ha!

 

If you really want to revisit the debate over whether or not any Patriots employees did anything wrong, I encourage you to re-read the numerous closed NFL threads from when the topic was actually fresh and just imagine yourself making witty rejoinders into them.

 

You can make all the dumb jokes you want about Brady's probable guilt, just leave off with the false characterizations of Patriots fans. This is an issue that has bugged me for a while -- I try to avoid making generalizations about fan groups in general, so it pisses me off that people in this thread make a lot of "Patriots fans think/say/do" type statements.

 

And for fuck's sake, don't use Barstool Sports as a starting point for any kind of sports debate. Unless you just enjoy the validation you get from pointing and laughing at obvious honks.

 

I would love to see any media outlet besides something like Barstool talking about how this suspension "vindicates" Brady or proves his innocence. I have seen nothing like that at all on ESPN, SI, even Deadspin. It's mostly been about how much Goodell fucked up the process. But I guess "everyone" is a sliding scale for some commenters?

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

But that's it, that's your hard evidence?  I mean, it's not like he was in there for 10 minutes or something - you already admitted he COULD have been taking a piss.  That doesn't seem like such a crazy possibility. 

 

The deflator comment looks bad. But is that really all we have to go on to suspend Brady?  Some weird deflator comment made by some jackass in a text message?  You don't think that's pretty weak?  I sure do.

 

 Eh, they seem pretty cut and dried to me.

 

  

McNally (9:05:45am): Tom sucks...im going make that next ball a fuckin balloon

 

Jastremski (9:07:08am): Talked to him last night. He actually brought you up and said you must have a lot of stress trying to get them done...

 

 

Why would he have stress getting them done if they weren't done after inspection? Why would McNally be pressing his boss for shoes and signed memorablia and such if what he was doing wasn't against the rules and likely to cost him his job?

[Reny of Storms End]

So the biggest punishments out of this whole fiasco went to the two guys who were just trying to do their jobs. I don't know if they have legal standing, but I hope they sue the NFL. The Deflator needs some cash soon if he's gonna keep off all that weight.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

 

That's certainly part of it. 

 

I remember Tedy Bruschi laughing about beating the Colts after the "protect Peyton's receivers" rule changes had gone into effect, "What rule are they going to ask to be changed now?"

 

 Yeah, add that to the whole Brady > Manning debate and the fact that both teams were pretty consistently at the top of the AFC for a similar span.

[Maithanet]

 

 Eh, they seem pretty cut and dried to me.

 

  

McNally (9:05:45am): Tom sucks...im going make that next ball a fuckin balloon

 

Jastremski (9:07:08am): Talked to him last night. He actually brought you up and said you must have a lot of stress trying to get them done...

 

 

Why would he have stress getting them done if they weren't done after inspection? Why would McNally be pressing his boss for shoes and signed memorablia and such if what he was doing wasn't against the rules and likely to cost him his job?

That first quote doesn't mean anything.  We already know that McNally is in charge of ball inflation, the question is just whether he was doing it post inspection. 

 

The second one...I dunno.  Like the deflator thing, it is circumstantial evidence that looks generally bad.  If that were the supporting evidence to something solid like "the balls were measured and recorded as normal at pre-game check, and then 10 (or all) of the balls were 2 psi lower at halftime", then I would agree with you.  But we don't have that.  And if this is your smoking gun... I dunno. 

 

I mean the circumstantial evidence is there, I'm not ignoring it.  I certainly acknowledge that it looks bad for Brady, and there's a good chance that he and McNally were colluding to cheat.  But from what I've seen, I'm nowhere near 100% sure that this crime was ever committed.  I think it is a very real possibility that no deflation ever occurred. 

[Locke_Lamora]

 

If you really want to revisit the debate over whether or not any Patriots employees did anything wrong, I encourage you to re-read the numerous closed NFL threads from when the topic was actually fresh and just imagine yourself making witty rejoinders into them.

 

You can make all the dumb jokes you want about Brady's probable guilt, just leave off with the false characterizations of Patriots fans. This is an issue that has bugged me for a while -- I try to avoid making generalizations about fan groups in general, so it pisses me off that people in this thread make a lot of "Patriots fans think/say/do" type statements.

 

And for fuck's sake, don't use Barstool Sports as a starting point for any kind of sports debate. Unless you just enjoy the validation you get from pointing and laughing at obvious honks.

 

I would love to see any media outlet besides something like Barstool talking about how this suspension "vindicates" Brady or proves his innocence. I have seen nothing like that at all on ESPN, SI, even Deadspin. It's mostly been about how much Goodell fucked up the process. But I guess "everyone" is a sliding scale for some commenters?

 

Well I've read most of those threads (sorry for not participating more) so I won't bother going back. I really don't see where what I put out there in response to another comment was problematic. Those things were proven.

 

 As for real media outlets, well I'm seeing words such as exonerated, cleared, and especially vindicated being thrown around everywhere. For instance the top article in the NFL section of ESPN states "Day of Vindication for Brady" So I don't quite know what you're seeing.

 

And as for Barstool that was yet again another joke. I thought I had made that one clear so I am yet again sorry for that. Everyone knows those guys are insane what with the whole "defending the wall" and getting arrested. They don't call him davey pageviews for nothing (honestly Barstool is a very entertaining site but I take nothing from there seriously, I mean how could you)

 

As for what seems to be the biggest problem you have with my comments, If you can't handle some negative generalizations about your football team then I do not know what to say to you other than I am sorry that they bother you so much and i most certainly did not mean to try and rile you up. That said, they are generalizations for a reason (that being that the majority of the fan base either portrays it, and or it is greatly projected onto them) while that is a negative thing for a certainty, it is only pertaining to a sport. I'm sorry if that injustice is too much for you but imo it is just that, sport, and as such does not really matter that much, and the generalizations should not have such a negative connotation as say social generalizations or stereotypes would. Those I would stay away from because they can actually hurt people. But in sport? I really don't see the problem. But if it did upset you, I am sorry.

[Trebla]

Tom Brady pulled a Good Will Hunting on ol' Hanging Judge Rog. https://twitter.com/xmasape/status/639449564991352832/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

[DanteGabriel]

 

 

 As for real media outlets, well I'm seeing words such as exonerated, cleared, and especially vindicated being thrown around everywhere. For instance the top article in the NFL section of ESPN states "Day of Vindication for Brady" So I don't quite know what you're seeing.

 

The "day of vindication" banner on the ESPN NFL page is a headline for an article written by the lead ESPN Boston writer.

 

And okay, sure, ESPN, the organization that never corrected their hack reporter's false and damaging report about the balls all being 2 PSI under, is in the tank for the Patriots. Go with that.

 

 

 

As for what seems to be the biggest problem you have with my comments, If you can't handle some negative generalizations about your football team then I do not know what to say to you other than I am sorry that they bother you so much and i most certainly did not mean to try and rile you up. That said, they are generalizations for a reason (that being that the majority of the fan base either portrays it, and or it is greatly projected onto them) while that is a negative thing for a certainty, it is only pertaining to a sport. I'm sorry if that injustice is too much for you but imo it is just that, sport, and as such does not really matter that much, and the generalizations should not have such a negative connotation as say social generalizations or stereotypes would. Those I would stay away from because they can actually hurt people. But in sport? I really don't see the problem. But if it did upset you, I am sorry.

 

 

By all means make negative generalizations about my team. That's what this thread is for. For instance, I'm perfectly comfortable saying that the Ravens are a team of whining bullies who blame everyone else for their losses, or that the Colts are a crybaby team belonging to a drunk asshole's idiot kid that happened to tank in the year before a can't-miss quarterback came up in the draft.

But you make these generalizations about all Patriots fans, which includes me, and I think the generalizations you make are provably false. It's a little baffling that this is so difficult a concept to grasp. Seriously -- even in your response paragraph I quoted you slip between referring to the team and referring to its fans.

[Locke_Lamora]

That first quote doesn't mean anything.  We already know that McNally is in charge of ball inflation, the question is just whether he was doing it post inspection. 

 

The second one...I dunno.  Like the deflator thing, it is circumstantial evidence that looks generally bad.  If that were the supporting evidence to something solid like "the balls were measured and recorded as normal at pre-game check, and then 10 (or all) of the balls were 2 psi lower at halftime", then I would agree with you.  But we don't have that.  And if this is your smoking gun... I dunno. 

 

I mean the circumstantial evidence is there, I'm not ignoring it.  I certainly acknowledge that it looks bad for Brady, and there's a good chance that he and McNally were colluding to cheat.  But from what I've seen, I'm nowhere near 100% sure that this crime was ever committed.  I think it is a very real possibility that no deflation ever occurred. 

 

Listen that is a very valid opinion and I don't have much to say to it other than I completely disagree. You absolutely could be right, because there is NO hard evidence, but, again imo, logically to me there is NO way that balls weren't being deflated post-inspection, and the Brady wasn't in charge of it. Although your opinion cannot be dis-proven, which is what you are leaning on, it simply does not make sense from a logical stand point. Which is then when you would tend to throw out the illogical outcome, and you are left with what most likely happened (and I am using most likely VERY loosely here). Granted none of that flies in a court of law, and for good reason, what with incredibly high stakes of prison time or even the death penalty. But in the arena of the NFL, I have no idea how Brady is not being punished.

 

Also I completely agree that the NFL absolutely mishandled everything every step of the way. Still does not make Brady coming out punishment free right.

 

But on the plus side!!! This may make tonight's game much more fun to watch so YAY! (Giants fan here :-) ) looking forward to seeing how Brady looks against our absolute shit defense!

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

That first quote doesn't mean anything.  We already know that McNally is in charge of ball inflation, the question is just whether he was doing it post inspection. 

 

The second one...I dunno.  Like the deflator thing, it is circumstantial evidence that looks generally bad.  If that were the supporting evidence to something solid like "the balls were measured and recorded as normal at pre-game check, and then 10 (or all) of the balls were 2 psi lower at halftime", then I would agree with you.  But we don't have that.  And if this is your smoking gun... I dunno. 

 

I mean the circumstantial evidence is there, I'm not ignoring it.  I certainly acknowledge that it looks bad for Brady, and there's a good chance that he and McNally were colluding to cheat.  But from what I've seen, I'm nowhere near 100% sure that this crime was ever committed.  I think it is a very real possibility that no deflation ever occurred. 

 

 Honestly I feel like Occam's Razor pretty much dispels any possibility that the rule was not being broken. Couple the texts with the fact that Brady destroys his phone the day before he's scheduled to be interviewed by investigators, and I can't see how you can allow for the possibility that deflation never occurred. 

[sperry]

Brady almost assuredly did it, and will get away with it because the "prosecutors" bungled their case.  The only positive outcome that can come from this is if the incompetent buffoons (starting at the top) are removed, and the league starts doing a respectable job disciplining its employees when they break the rules or break the law.

[DanteGabriel]

Brady almost assuredly did it, and will get away with it because the "prosecutors" bungled their case.  The only positive outcome that can come from this is if the incompetent buffoons (starting at the top) are removed, and the league starts doing a respectable job disciplining its employees when they break the rules or break the law.

 

The organization was fine a million dollars and docked first- and fourth-round draft picks. Punishment was exacted, in a heavier measure than has ever been put on any team.

 

Like I said before, the last time a team employee messed with a ball and violated NFL rules, that employee was disciplined and the league didn't launch any investigations into player involvement, let alone try to suspend any players.

[lancerman]

Here's the problem with the deflation thing. The Wells report only said 3 balls were below the expected level of natural deflation. That means even if a deflation occurred, it's highly unlikely that it was intended to gain an unfair advantage if only 3 were below what was actually expected when you account for natural deflation. Especially when the ball ranges were all over the place.

Like I said at the beginning, most likely scenario was that Brady had an issue with 16psi balls in the Jets game. He flipped out. From that point the equipment guys decided the best course of action was to make sure the balls were lowered a bit after the inspection (when they thought refs were overinflating the balls) to avoid them being that high again. And that it likely wasn't designed to be under 12.5 it was just shoddily down and a few got under that.

And that's if you completely accept the science in the Wells report. You still have the problem of Walt Anderson saying they used a different gauge and multiple scientific institutions saying that the measurements were fine. Even the Colts had balls below the 12.5 threshold, and they only had a few balls measured.

Someone once on a radio station said this was like Brady driving 60 in a 55. Well it's really like Brady's driver was clocked at 60 in a 55, but there were two radars in the police car and one was broken, and then they tried to say Brady knew his driver was going 60 and might have even told him to, but they had no evidence, and they had no grounds to request his cell phone records and he was never going to give them to him, and they tried to suspend Brady's license for it.

[aceluby]

God this topic is so incredibly boring.

[Red Tiger]

God this topic is so incredibly boring.

:agree:

[DanteGabriel]

God this topic is so incredibly boring.

 

Well, maybe you can regale us with more tales of the gigantic receivers Carson Palmer was heaving the ball up-for-grabs to in 2005.

[aceluby]

 

Well, maybe you can regale us with more tales of the gigantic receivers Carson Palmer was heaving the ball up-for-grabs to in 2005.

 

Touche

[Locke_Lamora]

 

 

 

The "day of vindication" banner on the ESPN NFL page is a headline for an article written by the lead ESPN Boston writer.

 

And okay, sure, ESPN, the organization that never corrected their hack reporter's false and damaging report about the balls all being 2 PSI under, is in the tank for the Patriots. Go with that.

 

 

 

 

By all means make negative generalizations about my team. That's what this thread is for. For instance, I'm perfectly comfortable saying that the Ravens are a team of whining bullies who blame everyone else for their losses, or that the Colts are a crybaby team belonging to a drunk asshole's idiot kid that happened to tank in the year before a can't-miss quarterback came up in the draft.

But you make these generalizations about all Patriots fans, which includes me, and I think the generalizations you make are provably false. It's a little baffling that this is so difficult a concept to grasp. Seriously -- even in your response paragraph I quoted you slip between referring to the team and referring to its fans.

 

 

Well that is because we have a misunderstanding of what I mean when I say team. A team absolutely imo includes the fans. I have always been an avid believer in that and I will stand against anyone who comes at me with the bogus, you don't even play why do you care rhetoric that most non-fans will use to try and belittle sports fans in general. I pay good money to support the team and I do believe that I am pert of it however small. I hope that clears that up for you Dante. 

[DanteGabriel]

 

Well that is because we have a misunderstanding of what I mean when I say team. A team absolutely imo includes the fans. I have always been an avid believer in that and I will stand against anyone who comes at me with the bogus, you don't even play why do you care rhetoric that most non-fans will use to try and belittle sports fans in general. I pay good money to support the team and I do believe that I am pert of it however small. I hope that clears that up for you Dante. 

 

So when the Giants have a great game (search your memory), are you one of those fans that say, "We played great"?

[lancerman]

Anyways this cannot be overstated the NFL CHOSE THIS COURT, this judge rules on the arbitrators side almost every time. I think this case was the 4th that he ruled the other way. This wasn't some activist judge that just went rogue for Brady. This was the guy that SHOULD have sided with Goodell if his case was valid. Now you have this case against them in a favorable court in accordance with the NFL's losses in other states. Put it this way, the NFLPA made 4 arguments, the judge was so convinced by the first two that he vacated it without even considering the other two. The appeal could last anywhere from 10 months at minimum to several years at max. And now every precedent is against them.

The NFL's issue was several fold.

-there is no rule for general awareness, and you can't punish someone for that.
-the Well's report was very weak on direct evidence for Brady.
-Goodell can't say a rule that is not a rule is actually a violation and then equate it to PED use to justify a punishment, that's unilateral
-there is no precedent for any of these rules from ball deflation, non cooperation, and the non rule of general awareness to garner a suspension.
-the whole Pash thing really killed them in the appeals process.
-the NFL concealed their own information in the appeals process which made it fundamentally unfair.

The NFL deserved to lose. In all actuality at the end of the day they are lucky the agreements with the owners are so iron clad that they got the draft picks. Kraft probably regrets backing down, and this is going to open the floodgates on the NFL for discipline rulings.

The NFL failed on this at every level. Even beyond a legal level.