A+J=T v.7

[Jô Maltese]

Tywin may very well think that something is wrong regarding his having sired Tyrion. However, this belief is not based in the rational (Aerys and Joanna being intimate) but in the irrational (Tywin is perfect so his offspring must be too). If Tywin does truly believe that Tyrion isn't his son, it's got nothing to do with timelines and secret passages and everything to do with Tywin being a crazy person when you hit his berserk buttons.

Furthermore, Tywin cared not a whit about being an enemy of the kingdom when he tried to trap Ned Stark, the King's Hand/best friend. Also, where is this "best served cold" thing coming from? Certainly not Tywin himself, when all of his retaliations have been hot-blooded, quick in response and grossly excessive. It is not in Tywin's character to punish small infractions with scorched earth and then make basically a token gesture for defiling his most beloved wife. The only time we see him supposedly "biding his time" is this one instance, where it's not even implied that this was the reason. How many times does Tywin even say Tyrion might be someone else's son? Why not constantly? Why does Tyrion ultimately have enough self-esteem to try to claim Casterly Rock?

Also, Tywin wasn't Hand when Catelyn takes Tyrion prisoner. It was Jaime who was a prisoner when Tywin was Hand.

Finally, does this theory posit that Tywin and Aerys were both sleeping with Joanna around the same time? I would assume it has to. Were T&J sleeping in different chambers?

Again, that's the point. We do not know either if Tywin actually slept with Joanna a lot... We don't know much about Joanna's personality or her real feelings towards Tywin for that matter. Many people suggest that Tywin was infertile, but actually the most likely reason for no children in 7 years or so is... no sex between the two!

[Suzanna Stormborn]

^^ Yeah infertility does not make much sense, since they already had the twins together.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

RT--

 

I really just have two "rhetorical" questions for you (which I will try to give my answer to but I am interested in your contrary thoughts).

 

What sort of "consequences" would have been open to Tywin as retribution to Aerys or Joanna? Eventually, Tywin does betray Aerys and sacks KL, so basically, just like Tywin bides his time regarding the Cersei insult by Dorne, he bides his time regarding Aerys and Joanna. But eventually, when he has the opportunity, he takes his revenge. As to Joanna, she died before Tywin really could do anything -- and what would you think he might do to her?

 

Do you really believe that whoremongering is the real reason that Tywin does not want Tyrion to inherit CR? Or to put it a different way, if Jaime were known to frequent whores, do you really think it would cause Tywin not to want Jaime to inherit CR? I think that there has to be a better reason than Tyrion and his penchant for whores -- and suspicion that Aerys could be the bio-dad certainly would do it.

The kind of consequences that Joanna could have suffered would have been in private, I think. More like how Doran broke Arianne's resistance by keeping her in solitude for weeks. If Tywin wanted to take revenge on Aerys for something he believed Aerys did in 272 AC, he would have acted during Duskendale: an heroic attempt to rescue his king, which sadly resulted in Aerys' death.

Such a punishment as Arianne received from Doran, could even have been endured during a pregnancy, so it is not like Tywin needed to wait.

 

There probably are other specific possibilities that I'm not thinking about at the moment. But I suspect that that's the type of direction  you'd have to look at.

 

 

I think Tyrion's whoremongering is a small part of why Tywin did not want Tyrion to inherit Casterly Rock. There is much and much more, of course. Tyrion, in many ways, will remind Tywin of Tytos. The lords laughed at Tytos, as they do Tyrion, for example. Tyrion is the type of man whom will be mocked his entire life, in the type of society he lives in. And should Tyrion in herit Casterly Rock and become head of House Lannister, that means it will become mockery towards House Lannister. And Tywin has worked real hard to get rid of all the mockery against his house. 

 

 

Rhaenys,

 

I don't see a big difference between the time before the marriage and the marriage itself. Joanna was Tywin's cousin, and he was presumably in love with her long before they married, so one would actually expect that Tywin was much about Aerys being there first rather than Joanna beginning an affair after they were long married.

 

I mean, Joanna was effectively soiled goods in any case, regardless whether Aerys actually deflowered her and took her as his mistress later on, or whether those were only rumors. Her reputation was destroyed, and when Tywin took her to wife he took a woman who was clearly no longer a maiden. He would only have done that if he loved her very much. After all, he was the Lord of Casterly Rock and very eager to protect his honor. But then, if he loved her very much one should expect he was very jealous and/or pissed about the fact that she had an affair with Aerys. Yet either that wasn't the case or that never showed. If Tywin was willing to marry the king's leavings he must have been aware of the possibility that Aerys would one day demand his 'older rights' and continue the affair. 

 

My best guess is that the three of them agreed that Joanna should now go to Tywin, and the Aerys-Joanna affair was over. Afterwards the wedding took place, and Aerys continued to have a little bit of fun during the bedding. In the end, Rhaella dismissed Joanna, either to prevent Aerys from continuing the affair or to get rid of another slut. Aerys was done with Joanna and turned to other pretty faces until the court moved to Lannisport. We don't know what happened then, but there may have been attempts to continue the affair - no idea if they were successful or not, but one assume that Tywin was not keen that they go back to their old habits.

 

During the tourney, Joanna was in Aerys' power. He could have done with (and to) her whatever he wanted to, and Tywin trying to resign is a sign that he may have done. It is rather unlikely that Tywin tried to resign over that bad joke. Aerys apparently fingered Joanna during the bedding (that is my best guess considered that it is actually okay to touch a naked woman during the bedding, so to behave improper he must have done something that was really unusual in such scenario) - if Tywin got over that, there is no reason to believe he couldn't get over some stupid breast joke. And Aerys being genial and friendly the next day also suggests that he got what he wanted rather than ending on the losing side of the game - if that had been the case he would have been pissed and had gladly accepted Tywin's resignation.

 

Joanna ruling Tywin actually means she may have been able to get away with pretty much anything. Especially an affair with the king while they were married especially because Aerys was the king. But everything should happen behind closed doors. If Joanna brought open shame to House Lannister she may have to face some repercussions. But not necessarily severe repercussions - if she truly ruled Tywin. Kevan gives us a hint in the Epilogue - he hopes that Tywin would understand what 'he had to do to Cersei', betraying in the process that Tywin would never have condoned that anyone would treat his golden daughter that way. And certainly not Joanna.

 

And that is also the case for Tyrion. Tywin treated him like shit because he killed Joanna during his birth, and because he know/suspected that he was Aerys' bastard. But he still took him in as his son, permitting him to bear the name Lannister. He did not kill him despite the fact that he easily could have, especially while Tyrion was still an infant. That is Tywin's good side, he doesn't kill members of his own family, very much like Walder Frey. Even if Tyrion is Aerys' son, he is Joanna's son, too, and thus he is safe even if Tywin treats him like shit. That is, until Tywin begins to contemplate the possibility that Tyrion would (and eventually did) kill his own nephew.

I do see a difference. During the years before the marriage, Joanna is not expected to have children with Tywin. From the day that she marries him, she is. 

 

Btw, Tywin was not Lord of Casterly Rock when he married Joanna - Tytos died four years after the marriage. Thus, it would have been Tytos' decision who Tywin would marry. Tywin could choose to defy his father, surely, but once the betrothal had been publicly announced by Tytos, breaking a betrothal would be seen as a confirmation of the rumours, whereas allowing the betrothal to stand would always keep it a question mark. 

 

What makes you think that Tywin "got over" the bedding incident?

 

When she and Tywin wed, your father drank too much wine at the wedding feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity that the lord’s right to the first night had been abolished. A drunken jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the … the liberties your father took during the bedding.”

 

Barristan Selmy was at KL for many years, observing Tywin. Apparently, he feels that Tywin didn't "get over it".

 

The comment Aerys made about Joanna's breasts were not a "bad joke". That was a public insult. Tywin was perfectly fine swallowing the insults directed at him, whilst at court. But that was a public insult directed at Joanna's person, and that was something that Tywin did not accept.

 

Also, it is nowhere stated that Aerys was "genial and friendly" the next day after the insult to Joanna was made, so there is nothing that suggests that Aerys got, as you say, "what he wanted".

 

That brings us back to the topic of "why would Tywin attempt to resign?". Is it not enough to try and resign when you see the woman you love being publicly insulted and humiliated so? If Aerys had done worse to Joanna, do you honestly think that Tywin would meekly accept "no, you'll stay here", and be done with it?

 

Joanna ruling Tywin does not mean that she would have been able to get away with every single thing. Especially not an affair. In regards to Kevan, I found this an interesting read, which might shed some more thoughts on Kevan's decision to allow Cersei to do her walk.

 

 

I think I understand.

 

You are saying that Tywin questions Tyrion's parentage his whole life even though he is not sure whether Joanna and Aerys had sex.  

 

I am saying that Tywin questions Tyrion's parentage his whole life because he knows that her and Aerys slept together near time of conception.

 

 

Which one of those makes more sense realistically?

 

 

 

Also why are you so certain that Tywin did not know if they slept together or not? She was either in his bed one night or she was in Aerys', kind of a hard thing to miss right? And why did he try to resign the next day?

I'm not talking about "which one is more likely" (they both are, btw). You are the one expressing certainty, treating it as if it is fact that Joanna and Aerys slept together in 272 AC, claiming that it must be the case, because how else could Tywin possibly have doubts?

I show you that there are other reasons as to why Tywin could possibly have had doubts, additionally showing that "Joanna and Aerys slept together in 272 AC" should not be treated as if it was a fact.

 

Yes I thought it was an odd thing to say as well.  'Station' does not imply physical appearance at all; being a dwarf is not considered a 'station'.  Station applies to social standing.   As the trueborn 2nd son of Tywin Lannister and brother to the Queen of Westeros and acting Hand of the King over the last few months (in-story time) there is practically no higher 'station' available to a person.

 

So for Tywin to call him out in a way that suggests his station is lower than anyone else's in the family makes zero sense unless he is a bastard.

 

Obviously Tywin could not call Tyrion out directly without injuring his own reputation by admittance of adultery from his own wife.  I am sure the whole affair is something Tywin wishes to forget at any cost, and Tyrion is a daily reminder, which fits perfectly with Tywin loathing him so.  As we have said before the loathing started from birth practically, well before the whoring or drinking.  But Rhaenys I do understand what you mean about Tywin preferring to keep the whores quiet rather than letting the world know as Tyrion does.  But that still does not explain why Tywin hated him from birth.  Sure he could be angry about Joanna dying for a time, but as LV stated previously; Tywin is a reasonable man, and no reasonable person would blame a baby for the mother dying in childbirth. That is ludicrous.  That would be like Ned blaming Jon for Lyanna's death.  Even Viserys doesn't blame Dany for Rhaella's death, and we all know what an idiotic monster he is, he even blames her for not being born earlier so she could have married Rhaegar, but never for killing their mother.  So I really disagree with anyone who says that Tywin seriously loathed Tyrion for 34 years for killing Joanna and maintains that Tyrion is Tywin's trueborn son, that reason for hatred only works if Tyrion is not his biological son because then it's like; 'Aerys basically killed Joanna by impregnating her with this deformed monster who killed her coming out'.  

Tyrion not only killed Joanna, but he stands for quite a lot of things that Tytos represented to Tywin, and thus a lot of things Tywin fought so hard against. 

 

Viserys does blame Dany for Rhaella's death, 

Her mother had died birthing her, and for that her brother Viserys had never forgiven her.

So you can see, such blame can be felt for years and years after the person in question has died. Viserys had blamed Daenerys for, at that point, more than 13 years. Why would Tywin then not blame Tyrion for the death of the woman he had loved so deeply? (Tyrion was 24/25 at the start of the series, btw, not 34 ;) )

 

 

In a way both Sansa and Tyrion were always pariahs in KL.

 

When Sansa was married to Tyrion, the Lannisters prepared new clothes for her.

This is the description of the maiden's cloak she was given:

 

And this is the description of the bride's cloak

 

 

 

But when King Joffrey Baratheon was to marry Lady Margaery Tyrell and seal the alliance between the two houses, this happened:

 

So a traitor's daughter is given beautiful, new garments but the Queen of Westeros a threadbare cloak?

 

Apparently Joffrey's bride was regarded worthy to wear Joanna's cloak, whereas Tyrion's wife, despite the fact that she is a Stark and exceptionally beautiful, should not be anywhere near the heirloom.

 

Interesting to see that even then, Tyrion was again alienated by his family.

Yet this passage shows that Joffrey using Joanna's cloak during his wedding to Margaery was the unusual thing to do:

 

When it was time for the changing of the cloaks, the bride sank gracefully to her knees and Tommen covered her with the heavy cloth-of-gold monstrosity that Robert had cloaked Cersei in on their own wedding day, with the crowned stag of Baratheon worked upon its back in beads of onyx. Cersei had wanted to use the fine red silk cloak Joffrey had used. “It was the cloak my lord father used when he wed my lady mother,” she explained to the Tyrells, but the Queen of Thorns had balked her in that as well. “That old thing?” the crone had said. “It looks a bit threadbare to me... and dare I say, unlucky? And wouldn’t a stag be more fitting for King Robert’s trueborn son? In my day a bride donned her husband’s colors, not his lady mother’s.”

[Suzanna Stormborn]

 

 

1. That brings us back to the topic of "why would Tywin attempt to resign?". Is it not enough to try and resign when you see the woman you love being publicly insulted and humiliated so? If Aerys had done worse to Joanna, do you honestly think that Tywin would meekly accept "no, you'll stay here", and be done with it?

 

Joanna ruling Tywin does not mean that she would have been able to get away with every single thing. Especially not an affair. In regards to Kevan, I found this an interesting read, which might shed some more thoughts on Kevan's decision to allow Cersei to do her walk.

 

 

2. I'm not talking about "which one is more likely" (they both are, btw). You are the one expressing certainty, treating it as if it is fact that Joanna and Aerys slept together in 272 AC, claiming that it must be the case, because how else could Tywin possibly have doubts?

I show you that there are other reasons as to why Tywin could possibly have had doubts, additionally showing that "Joanna and Aerys slept together in 272 AC" should not be treated as if it was a fact.

 

Tyrion not only killed Joanna, but he stands for quite a lot of things that Tytos represented to Tywin, and thus a lot of things Tywin fought so hard against. 

 

3.Viserys does blame Dany for Rhaella's death, 

Her mother had died birthing her, and for that her brother Viserys had never forgiven her.

So you can see, such blame can be felt for years and years after the person in question has died. Viserys had blamed Daenerys for, at that point, more than 13 years. Why would Tywin then not blame Tyrion for the death of the woman he had loved so deeply? (Tyrion was 24/25 at the start of the series, btw, not 34 ;) )

 

Yet this passage shows that Joffrey using Joanna's cloak during his wedding to Margaery was the unusual thing to do:

 

When it was time for the changing of the cloaks, the bride sank gracefully to her knees and Tommen covered her with the heavy cloth-of-gold monstrosity that Robert had cloaked Cersei in on their own wedding day, with the crowned stag of Baratheon worked upon its back in beads of onyx. Cersei had wanted to use the fine red silk cloak Joffrey had used. “It was the cloak my lord father used when he wed my lady mother,” she explained to the Tyrells, but the Queen of Thorns had balked her in that as well. “That old thing?” the crone had said. “It looks a bit threadbare to me... and dare I say, unlucky? And wouldn’t a stag be more fitting for King Robert’s trueborn son? In my day a bride donned her husband’s colors, not his lady mother’s.”

1. Yes I think that.  Given WOIAF and what Tywin 'took' from Aerys, I dont think Tywin ever had it in him to stand up to a king.

 

2. You didnt answer the question, which is more likely? Doubting your child's paternity  (and bringing it up 34 years later) because you knew your wife cheated, or doubting it because you think maybe she cheated but dont actually know?

 

3. You are good, I did forget about that line, but Viserys never says anything to her about it that we read does he? Not like Tywin and Cersei who bring it up like 20 times. clearly they are holding this ridiculous grudge a lot more openly than Viserys who never actually mentions it.

[DigitalCount]

They also have the luxury of dwelling on it, though. Viserys and Daenerys were on the run, so he had more urgent things to think about, whereas Tywin and Cersei have the advantage of relative comfort to go on about Joanna and her death.

[UnmaskedLurker]

RT--

 

How do we know that Tywin did not punish Joanna in some way -- assuming he blamed her, which maybe he did not if he believed that Aerys forced Joanna. But if Tywin did punish Joanna, the readers would not be given that knowledge at this point. The only people that would know would not be talking about it. So I am not sure I get what you point happens to be regarding punishment.

[Danelle]

 

Yet this passage shows that Joffrey using Joanna's cloak during his wedding to Margaery was the unusual thing to do:

 

When it was time for the changing of the cloaks, the bride sank gracefully to her knees and Tommen covered her with the heavy cloth-of-gold monstrosity that Robert had cloaked Cersei in on their own wedding day, with the crowned stag of Baratheon worked upon its back in beads of onyx. Cersei had wanted to use the fine red silk cloak Joffrey had used. “It was the cloak my lord father used when he wed my lady mother,” she explained to the Tyrells, but the Queen of Thorns had balked her in that as well. “That old thing?” the crone had said. “It looks a bit threadbare to me... and dare I say, unlucky? And wouldn’t a stag be more fitting for King Robert’s trueborn son? In my day a bride donned her husband’s colors, not his lady mother’s.”

 

It is unusual, for someone who doesn't belong in the current generation of Lannisters. Joanna appears to be venerated by her family and the cloak she wore on her wedding is almost a sacred object for her family. To someone else, like Sansa or Olenna it seems strange but not for Cersei who not only used her mother's cloak, but expected that her son's bride would do the same. 

What appears to be irrational for Sansa and Olenna, is perfectly acceptable for Cersei.

Family traditions are often unusual to outsiders.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

1. Yes I think that, given WOIAF and what Tywin 'took' from Aerys, I dont think Tywin ever had it in him to stand up to a king.

 

2. You didnt answer the question, which is more likely? Doubting your child's paternity  (and bringing it up 34 years later) because you knew your wife cheated, or doubting it because you think maybe she cheated but dont actually know?

 

3. You are good, I did forget about that line, but Viserys never says anything to her about it that we read does he? Not like Tywin and Cersei who bring it up like 20 times. clearly they are holding this ridiculous grudge a lot more openly than Viserys who never actually mentions it.

1. Please elaborate

 

2. I think both scenario's are possible, and don't see any way to say that, with the info we currently have regarding Tywin, there is one more likely than the other.

 

3. That Dany is so very aware that Viserys had never forgiven her, shows that it has come up, before. I can't recall a direct statement from Viserys to Dany about it, but consider that we saw Viserys for half a book, while we saw Tywin for 3, and Cersei for more than 5.

 

RT--

 

How do we know that Tywin did not punish Joanna in some way -- assuming he blamed her, which maybe he did not if he believed that Aerys forced Joanna. But if Tywin did punish Joanna, the readers would not be given that knowledge at this point. The only people that would know would not be talking about it. So I am not sure I get what you point happens to be regarding punishment.

We have no indication that he did. If there was some punishment, we would have gotten a hint about it, however slightly, imo. Or are still to get one, that is also a possibility. 

 

My point is this: If Joanna and Aerys had continued their affair that night and Tywin knew about it (as has been suggested in this thread often), Tywin would have responded to that by punishing Joanna, in whatever way. We have no indication that he did, so either nothing happened between Joanna and Aerys that night, or something did happen, but Tywin doesn't know. And if he doesn't know, he can't have any doubts regarding Tyrion's parentage.

 

Then there's always the option that Joanna was raped by Aerys. If Tywin knew about it, he would have responded by 1) not accepted Aerys' "no" when he resigned, and 2) ensuring that Joanna would not be pregnant by giving her moon tea (and despite all the counter-arguments made here, in the story, moon tea has never failed before, nor has any character ever expressed even the slightest bit of uncertainty about whether it could possibly fail), and 3) taking his revenge on Aerys, whether is was sooner or later; yet we know that he didn't, as the perfect opportunity presented itself in 277 AC, and Tywin did not seize it.

 

 

It is unusual, for someone who doesn't belong in the current generation of Lannisters. Joanna appears to be venerated by her family and the cloak she wore on her wedding is almost a sacred object for her family. To someone else, like Sansa or Olenna it seems strange but not for Cersei who not only used her mother's cloak, but expected that her son's bride would do the same. 

What appears to be irrational for Sansa and Olenna, is perfectly acceptable for Cersei.

Family traditions are often unusual to outsiders.

It holds importance to Cersei. That's all. It might hold importance to Tywin, but IIRC, he never expressed that it did.

[UnmaskedLurker]

RT--

 

No way we would be given any clue of how Tywin reacted to Joanna. First, it would give too much away. And second, no one would have known about it to tell who would tell so GRRM would have no good way to get that information to the readers. But the first reason is really the main reason -- GRRM would not want to give that information to the readers yet.

[Doorlocks]

At this point, the relationship between Tywin, Joanna, and Aerys (plus Rhaella, but we know even less about her) could have been almost anything, especially early on.  There are several love triangles or three-way relationships that can perhaps give us insight into the possibilities:

 

1. Robert/Cersei/Jaime - A is oblivious and married to B, while B & C are in love (or at least believe so.)
2. Selyse/Melisandre/Sannis - A is accepting of B & C's sexual relationship (but there are no serious feelings.)
3. Margaery/Renly/Loras - A is supportive (presumably) and acting as a beard for B & C, who are in love.  (It's strange that each Baratheon brother ended up in a three-way relationship of sorts; I had never noticed that until just now).
4. Aegon I/Visenya/Rhaenys - A is the focus, B & C are theoretically equal partners (while A actually loves C more, even though she's (rumored to be) unfaithful)
5. Daenerys/Hizdahr/Daario - A & B are married/betrothed, but A & C are lovers; B doesn't particularly care because the marriage was a tool. 
6. Aegon IV/Naerys/Aemon - A is suspicious of B & C but cannot prove it. 
7. Aegon IV/Falena Stokeworth/Lucas Lothston- A & B are lovers (B took A's virginity), while B is married to C for convenience sake.  A & B continue to be lovers after the marriage because, well, A is royalty and C is not.
8. Daemon/Daenerys/Maron - A & B are in love, but B & C must marry due to obligation and parental pressure (it turns out well for them at least).

And so on and so on.  There are likely many more that I'm forgetting/too lazy to include, but I think the major dynamics have been covered.  Looking at the list, I see shades of several possibilities for Aerys/Joanna/Tywin (and Aerys/Joanna/Rhaella), but #1, 2, and 7 strike me personally as most likely. 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

RT--

 

No way we would be given any clue of how Tywin reacted to Joanna. First, it would give too much away. And second, no one would have known about it to tell who would tell so GRRM would have no good way to get that information to the readers. But the first reason is really the main reason -- GRRM would not want to give that information to the readers yet.

Why not? It could have been really subtle, and there even would be an reason the reader could assume caused their small falling out: Cersei recalls that she was 6 or 7 when Tywin told her she would marry Rhaegar. That places that incident in either 272 (turning 6), 273 (6 turning 7) or part of 274 (7 turning 8). (Personally, I'm assuming that Tywin did not begin to speak out loud about that plan until after Joanna's death, but that doesn't mean he didn't discuss it with Joanna before).

Joanna clearly had other plans, considering the "plotting" she did with the Princess of Dorne. As well as the Joanna we see in Jaime's weirwood dream, she didn't seem so happy about Tywins dreams for their children either. All of which has made me feel that Joanna did not want her children at court. Did not want her daughter married to Rhaegar, living under Aerys' roof. 

 

The smallest falling-out; an argument, or simply a mention of Tywin not speaking to Joanna for a while, would be all that it took, and there would be a cover-up reason already present. So if he had already wanted to, GRRM could have put such a clue in the story by now. He didn't, so either he hasn't wanted to do so yet, or there is no such clue to put in. :dunno:

[DigitalCount]

RT--
 
No way we would be given any clue of how Tywin reacted to Joanna. First, it would give too much away. And second, no one would have known about it to tell who would tell so GRRM would have no good way to get that information to the readers. But the first reason is really the main reason -- GRRM would not want to give that information to the readers yet.

Doesn't this negate all the clues in Game, though? If Martin regrets being subtle as a sledgehammer for Jon's parentage, having explained it as being unsure of the ultimate book length, wouldn't he have done the same with Tyrion's?

[DMC]

I am catching up after a few days. Here are my general responses:

 

dmc515--

 

No need to dwell on the issue of my personal approach to responding to people who agree or disagree with my theory. Why don't we just agree to try to focus on the analysis rather than characterizing the approach of argumentation by anyone, ok? I also still look forward to your response to my answer to your last substantive post.

 

Sorry, I was waylaid dealing with a bunch of humorless, pathetically petty students.  Anyway, the point of the post you're responding to here was an indirect apology for my indirect assertion that you were, generally speaking, arrogant and/or condescending.  Just wanted to clarify I did and do not think that.

 

 

1. Let me be clear on what I mean by wishful thinking. I don't mean that someone has analyzed clues -- comes to a conclusion -- and then analyzes other information in that context of how it relates to the conclusions already formed. What I mean is to argue from emotion rather than logic. For the most part, I don't care how the story turns out -- I just want a good story. I don't care if Tyrion is a head of the dragon or whether he rides a dragon or whether he lives or dies. To the extent I care at all, it is that I have come to certain conclusions from my reading of the clues and want to be shown to have been right. But none of my analysis is based on "wishful thinking" in the sense that I "prefer" that the story go a certain way because it would cause me to enjoy the story better. That is what I meant in the first statement of mine that you bolded. For example, many people think that the Tywin/Tyrion relationship, as outlined by GRRM, only works from a literary point of view if Tywin is the birth father of Tyrion. If that reasoning is the true rationale for that determination, even after considering all the counter-arguments, I would not call that line of reasoning wishful thinking. If it turns out to be mistaken, it was merely flawed analytical reasoning. My point is that I strongly suspect that many people are not coming to that conclusion based on that line of reasoning. I strongly suspect that many simply "like" the story better if Tywin is the bio-dad of Tyrion because they understood the story that way when first reading those chapters and Aerys as bio-dad would lessen their enjoyment of the story because they like the notion of the cruel father having it out for the deformed son for almost entirely unjustified reasons. That is the story they "like" and so they view all potential clues to the contrary through that prism. It is that form of reasoning that I call "wishful thinking" and I try incredibly hard to avoid engaging in such ways of thinking because its clouds objectivity in analyzing the clues. I am trying to be "right" in predicting what will happen -- not argue for the story that I would prefer to be written. And to be clear, I have never thought that you were one of the people engaging in wishful thinking -- so if you thought I was lumping you in that category, I will clarify here that I was not. But the way many others have discussed these issues, I have gotten the clear perception that they simply prefer the story to be a certain way and then engage in rationalization to analyze all clues with the goal of supporting the version they personally prefer.

 

2. I honestly and truly do not believe the second bolded statement is a strawman at all. I really have been waiting for an explanation for why GRRM put in so many clues if AJT is not true. You posit one explanation. I find it entirely unconvincing. I don't mean that no one has tried -- I just mean that all attempts have been what I consider to be weak arguments -- which of course is a subjective determination. I will try not to be arrogant or condescending, but I will try to explain why your attempt to explain appears to be quite weak to me. First, you engage in the usual approach of explaining how there is a more "natural" reading of each clue -- like the dragon vision or two-headed dragon dream. But while clues are almost always subjective in their interpretation -- there really are too many to be ignored, in my view. I will list a few of what I consider to be the most central to the case:  (1) only Lannister who as an adult is described with pale blond hair and only Lannister to have black streaks of hair; (2) dreams about dragons; (3) references by Tyrion that Tywin never really considered Tyrion to be his real son (dwarfs are bastards in their father's eyes); (4) born deformed and described as having a tail; (5) Aerys is described as having been more interested in Joanna than anyone else; (6) Joanna is placed in KL at a time that could be the time of conception; and (7) the similarities among Jon, Dany and Tyrion, especially the manner of the deaths of their mothers. I really do not believe that a good author would insert so many hints by accident. They all point in favor of AJT -- not "proof" -- but supporting evidence. From the point of view of an author who eventually would have such a "big reveal" -- these are precisely the sort of clues that the author would insert. So while there might be a good explanation for why GRRM has done this -- I simply have not heard one yet that makes any sense to me. Maybe that is arrogant -- perhaps it is. But it is not a strawman. And of course exploring other possible ways that Tyrion might ride a dragon is permissible -- actually I strongly encourage people to challenge all of my conclusions. I have modified some of my views when someone makes a convincing argument. If someone came up with a good explanation, I would consider it and determine whether I am convinced. I welcome open and honest debate. And I am not suggesting that each and every person who does not agree with AJT is merely engaging in wishful thinking -- just that it seems that many are doing so. And of course, people can disagree. But in the end, most likely, one side or the other will be shown to be correct. If I am shown to have been wrong, then I will admit there was a flaw in the way that I analyzed the clues -- try to figure out where I went wrong -- and try to do better next time. But if I am right -- I hope a similar thought process would be had by those who opposed this theory. So while we can disagree, at some point, most likely, it will turn out that one side was wrong. But I strongly encourage all people who disagree to come here and express why they disagree. I want a full and fair exchange of ideas. I am waiting for someone to come up with something that persuades me that this theory has serious flaws in it. So far, no one has done so. But, of course, that does not mean I am right. But I will express my view if I don't find an argument persuasive.

 

3. <snip>

 

 

<snip>GRRM is saying that he does not put in clues that are not there for a reason -- and the reason cannot be to convince readers of the existence of a mystery when actually no mystery exists at all. So prior to WOIAF, I thought maybe I was misreading the clues and maybe they were not meant as clues and I was just seeing a pattern where none really existed (i.e., all just a coincidence). But after WOIAF, that possibility seems virtually non-existent. So we are left with the "feed the beast" theory, which I think amount to "lying to his readers" which GRRM said he would not do. So what is left as an explanation?

 

1.  You paid me a compliment at the end of this section so allow me to return the favor - I appreciate you have gone through considerable efforts to extricate emotion from the arguments you present in the OP and thereafter.  You have also done a truly exemplary job stating your case in a reasonable and measured manner to any and all comers.  That should be applauded and appreciated.  It is genuinely admirable.  However, the investment you have put into this thread, and the first bolded statement of yours I made, belies my point.  There is a certain amount of emotional investment now involved which can't be taken away.  I completely agree on taking the perspective that whatever Martin has ending up happening should be all good, as long as it's a good story.  That's why I'm perhaps overly careful in committing myself to any fan theory, including this one. 

 

As to many people's initial reticence to AJT being the Tywin/Tyrion relationship and, subsequently, Tywin having to be the "bio-dad," I think you have a point there.  What I've tried to emphasize in previous posts is that this push-back does not necessarily have to have anything to do with a hypothetical paternity test.  Tywin DOES have justified reasons for hating Tyrion beyond his deformity.  This is where I think you give the opposition short shrift.  It's not as if his hatred is completely cartoon villain without AJT.  Tyrion embarrasses House Lannister not only by his physical deformity, but also by his actions.  And Tywin specifically states as much repeatedly - there's as much text on that as anything regarding their relationship.  Moreover, there is a clear subtext to some that Tywin hates Tyrion because he reminds him of himself.  Of course this is a personal interpretation, but it is encouraged by Genna's comments and the overall archetype of tragic father/son relationships throughout the history of literature to "Cat's in the Cradle."  A lot of us view the relationship as Martin's take on this, and it is completely undercut, albeit regardless of Tyrion's 'true' parentage, if Tywin knew or strongly suspected an affair.  That's all I've been arguing the past few months.  You can say it's backwards looking until you're blue in the face, but it doesn't change the fact it's a HUGE part of the story considering Tyrion's 'station' within the narrative.  And yes, that relationship will still matter, and will be analyzed, long after Martin ever finishes the books.  This is why I think the argument that "since Tywin's dead it doesn't matter" has little if any validity.

 

2.  The strawman I think you have been building is based upon your repeated assertions, almost an expectation, that those that disagree with AJT must contend with all the 'clues' outlined in the OP as a whole and respond to each and every one of them.  My point is many of these are entirely subjective and there are completely valid 'alternative' explanations to many of them.  The requirement that anyone who disagrees with AJT has to refute each line by line is a fallacy, or strawman.  Moreover, when respondents do offer solid explanations for why one of your clues could be interpreted in a different way, instead of acknowledging the alternative explanation, you often fall back on the 'well then what about all these other things' out-clause.  So the result is the incessant insisting that Martin would never put so many 'hints' if it doesn't mean something without taking into account the genuine weaknesses in many of such 'hints.'  It thwarts progressive discussion and is a large part why these threads just go round and round.

 

3.  Ok.  You think it doesn't have to make sense for why Joanna would sleep with Aerys and why/how/if/saywhat? Tywin would allow it.  That's a fundamental disagreement that will never be resolved.  The only thing I'd say is my perspective - that there should be some type of reasoning for this incredibly scandalous affair in the world Martin has set up - is just as valid as yours (i.e. that it doesn't need to be). 

 

 

(4).  If, as you said, perhaps you were just misinterpreting the 'clues' before AWOIAF, that simply makes my point more compelling.  I don't really care about arguing whether it's a red herring or not, split hairs all you want.  But if the argument for AJT was relatively weak before AWOIAF, and it's the central point of its strength, that only underscores its overall weakness.  The World Book is for freaks like us.  A large part of it is devoted to explicating the relationship between Aerys and Tywin, regardless or AJT.  If there's any main character in the book, it's Tywin.  So, to put something in such a project for us freaks, that allows us to freak out about it for a freaking long time -- so the freaks will be distracted from bothering him...that seems pretty logical to me.  In addition, as can probably by inferred, I don't deify Martin like much of this forum.  He will and has 'lied' - arguably not in a brightline test but in many other ways.  Don't blame him at all, but also acknowledge it as a possibility.

[Ser Creighton]

I got something! Please let this not have been done, please let this not have been done already. Ok have any of you ever heard of Tyrian Dye? AKA Tyrian purple, and Royal purple.

 

"Tyrian purple was expensive: the 4th-century-BC historian Theopompus reported, "Purple for dyes fetched its weight in silver at Colophon" in Asia Minor.^[5] The expense meant that purple-dyed textiles became status symbols, and early sumptuary laws restricted their uses. The production of Tyrian purple was tightly controlled in Byzantium and was subsidized by the imperial court, which restricted its use for the colouring of imperial silks,^[6] Later (9th century)^[7] a child born to a reigning emperor was said to be porphyrogenitos, "born in the purple".

 

Tyrian, purple, and royalty. That is a really close name to be associated with royal purple. Looks an awful lot like Tyrion. If this was already done then I claim whoever did it, time traveled to the future and stole it from me. This had to have been done already right? Coincidence? Come on, I demand it make the list.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrian_purple

[Chinoiserie]

I got something! Please let this not have been done, please let this not have been done already. Ok have any of you ever heard of Tyrian Dye? AKA Tyrian purple, and Royal purple.

 

"Tyrian purple was expensive: the 4th-century-BC historian Theopompus reported, "Purple for dyes fetched its weight in silver at Colophon" in Asia Minor.^[5] The expense meant that purple-dyed textiles became status symbols, and early sumptuary laws restricted their uses. The production of Tyrian purple was tightly controlled in Byzantium and was subsidized by the imperial court, which restricted its use for the colouring of imperial silks,^[6] Later (9th century)^[7] a child born to a reigning emperor was said to be porphyrogenitos, "born in the purple".

 

Tyrian, purple, and royalty. That is a really close name to be associated with royal purple. Looks an awful lot like Tyrion. If this was already done then I claim whoever did it, time traveled to the future and stole it from me. This had to have been done already right? Coincidence? Come on, I demand it make the list.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrian_purple

 

I feel like I have heard this somewhere before. Exiting that I have had contact with a time-traveller! But this sounds pretty likely source of Tyrion's name for GRRM.

[Ser Creighton]

 

I feel like I have heard this somewhere before. Exiting that I have had contact with a time-traveller! But this sounds pretty likely source of Tyrion's name for GRRM.

That's how I feel about it, I know I have heard about it somewhere before, I remembered the sea snails and the story of dye. I remembered everything except the name, I think it was in school where I first heard about it, but even since then I recall the history and seeing it someplace, and I remember it had something to do with studying the Greeks and Romans. Anyway it would seem unlikely that the name was not part of the creation of Tyrion. It's to close and fits to well, and I know Martin is a history buff who draws from the Romans and Greeks.  

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I got something! Please let this not have been done, please let this not have been done already. Ok have any of you ever heard of Tyrian Dye? AKA Tyrian purple, and Royal purple.

 

"Tyrian purple was expensive: the 4th-century-BC historian Theopompus reported, "Purple for dyes fetched its weight in silver at Colophon" in Asia Minor.^[5] The expense meant that purple-dyed textiles became status symbols, and early sumptuary laws restricted their uses. The production of Tyrian purple was tightly controlled in Byzantium and was subsidized by the imperial court, which restricted its use for the colouring of imperial silks,^[6] Later (9th century)^[7] a child born to a reigning emperor was said to be porphyrogenitos, "born in the purple".

 

Tyrian, purple, and royalty. That is a really close name to be associated with royal purple. Looks an awful lot like Tyrion. If this was already done then I claim whoever did it, time traveled to the future and stole it from me. This had to have been done already right? Coincidence? Come on, I demand it make the list.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrian_purple

Woah!!!

Good find Ser C.  That does make a lot of sense.  and that is the only other place I have heard the word Tyrion/an before :)

 

NICE

[Ser Creighton]

Woah!!!

Good find Ser C.  That does make a lot of sense.  and that is the only other place I have heard the word Tyrion/an before :)

 

NICE

Found some other things with names from the books that are historically related as well, so you know he does it. Like Tycho Nestoris. Google Tycho Comet, and then Nestorius. Tycho is an astronomer who saw the great winter comet of 1577.

 

  "A wonderful star appeared in the south-east in the first month of winter: it had a curved bow-like tail, resembling bright lightning, the brilliancy of which illuminated the earth around, and the firmament above. This star was seen in every part of the west of Europe, and it was wondered at by all universally."

 

Nestorius was a guy who founded Nestorianism, it basically deals with the separation of Jesus from his human and divine self. Basically it focuses on the resurrection, the human part died and Christ was reborn. So you get him and Jon at the wall and you basically have a guy named Great Winter Comet of Resurrection and Jon getting stabbed. In a series made famous by a giant red comet of dragon resurrection. So you can kind of get that with names he sometimes goes the historical rout. With Tycho it's not about name meaning but what the name is associated with in history. So I think the same applies here with Tyrion. 

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Cool!! I had never heard that either, but it seems impossible that it would be a coincidence.

[Ser Creighton]

Cool!! I had never heard that either, but it seems impossible that it would be a coincidence.

Yeah it would be a rather giant coincidence, he does it with other names too. Daenerys is another one. Diana/Artemis, he smashed them together and pulled the T, Diana = Dany. If you go through the books you find several reference points to Artemis/Diana in relation to Dany. Even though you probably wouldn't think Huntress with Dany, it's not because of that identification it's another identification with the goddess he is pointing too.

 

Anyway you start seeing these and it's like ok yeah Tyrian = Tyrion, the author is not tripping over historical references by luck. Well we know how well the Lannisters are associated with purple and royalty, totally symbolic of them and not the Targs. :dunce: So just wanted to give a decent contribution to your thread here. Like a legit one, not me clowning around. It's a present.