A+J=T v.7

[Suzanna Stormborn]

What does Tyrion have to do with refusing Cersei?

I was just pointing out that Cersei assumes Aerys was 'mad' to refuse her for Rhaegar.  I am saying he made a sane decision not to wed his son to a daughter of Tywin whom he had cuckolded(and left a bastard with, Tyrion).

[UnmaskedLurker]

I was just pointing out that Cersei assumes Aerys was 'mad' to refuse her for Rhaegar.  I am saying he made a sane decision not to wed his son to a daughter of Tywin whom he had cuckolded(and left a bastard with, Tyrion).

Welcome back. 

On a totally unrelated topic, while I don't mind the new configuration of the website, I do feel as though the postings have a different "vibe" since the re-launch. Maybe it is really just due to nothing happening for a while (no show, no books, etc.), but the postings just seem so dull these days (and I really have no interest in the Heresy postings on the X+Y=J issue, as maybe I am just worn out on that fight a bit).

But as to A+J=T and the Rhaegar/Cersei situation, I think it really goes back to the OP of yours that I have linked in the OP to this thread on Aerys losing respect for Tywin. I hope the links still work after the re-launch (I know some links in some sigs are broken) -- I have not checked them and am reluctant to do so until I know that the re-launch has been finalized (as I understand we might lose everything posted since the re-launch at the time of a re-re-launch).

[Lost Melnibonean]

Hmm... Why do you suppose the Lady Johanna of Lannister taught her daughter Cersei that tears were a woman's weapon? Sansa VI, Clash 60

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Hmm... Why do you suppose the Lady Johanna of Lannister taught her daughter Cersei that tears were a woman's weapon? Sansa VI, Clash 60

HA! good one!!

Joanna used tears to stay Tywin's anger at her for being the beloved of the Mad King?

 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

HA! good one!!

Joanna used tears to stay Tywin's anger at her for being the beloved of the Mad King?

 

Seeing as how Lady Joanna "ruled" Tywin, I somehow wonder whether she would not have used her tears on another, instead of her husband. 

After all, Cersei later that chapter states 

"You little fool. Tears are not a woman's only weapon. You've got another one between your legs, and you'd best learn to use it. You'll find men use their swords freely enough. Both kinds of swords."

She already had Tywin wrapped around her finger. To keep Aerys' attention, considering his short attention span for mistresses, she would have needed every weapon she had.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Seeing as how Lady Joanna "ruled" Tywin, I somehow wonder whether she would not have used her tears on another, instead of her husband. 

After all, Cersei later that chapter states 

"You little fool. Tears are not a woman's only weapon. You've got another one between your legs, and you'd best learn to use it. You'll find men use their swords freely enough. Both kinds of swords."

She already had Tywin wrapped around her finger. To keep Aerys' attention, considering his short attention span for mistresses, she would have needed every weapon she had.

 

True story^.  I think there are conflicting accounts of Joanna and Tywin's relationship, and we have all discussed how it is hard to figure out Joanna at all.  She comes off like a madonna figure, but she is a Lannister and Cersei's mother.  I think this question is a great analogy for her character; what was her weapon of choice, Tears or the one between her legs?

[Jô Maltese]

Aerys fathering a difformed bastard with Cersei's mother... Not really encouraging for a match between the 2 families...

[Ser Creighton]

Welcome back. 

On a totally unrelated topic, while I don't mind the new configuration of the website, I do feel as though the postings have a different "vibe" since the re-launch. Maybe it is really just due to nothing happening for a while (no show, no books, etc.), but the postings just seem so dull these days (and I really have no interest in the Heresy postings on the X+Y=J issue, as maybe I am just worn out on that fight a bit).

But as to A+J=T and the Rhaegar/Cersei situation, I think it really goes back to the OP of yours that I have linked in the OP to this thread on Aerys losing respect for Tywin. I hope the links still work after the re-launch (I know some links in some sigs are broken) -- I have not checked them and am reluctant to do so until I know that the re-launch has been finalized (as I understand we might lose everything posted since the re-launch at the time of a re-re-launch).

What you have only been having the same debate on R+L=J for ever, and now your board? Feel the same way actually though it predates the update. Changing faces, less challenging debates, nothing to talk about, new threads by new people who only rehash the same old theories and debates. Latest trend all sympathetic characters will turn evil. It's the calm before the storm, season 6 which will go backwards as much as it goes forward. Here is all you need to know, it's not a particularly complex story so after a couple of years all debates are basically worn to the nub. Lucky for everyone else Martin is a particularly slow writer when he is not writing fast because he does that too. It's been a long wait and it's not over.

Hang in there, at least Suzy is back from her abduction, her so called abduction. Word is she ran off with a Snark who was a lark, but it all waffled when he wiffled, which made dear Suzy sniffle.

[Lost Melnibonean]

What you have only been having the same debate on R+L=J for ever, and now your board? Feel the same way actually though it predates the update. Changing faces, less challenging debates, nothing to talk about, new threads by new people who only rehash the same old theories and debates. Latest trend all sympathetic characters will turn evil. It's the calm before the storm, season 6 which will go backwards as much as it goes forward. Here is all you need to know, it's not a particularly complex story so after a couple of years all debates are basically worn to the nub. Lucky for everyone else Martin is a particularly slow writer when he is not writing fast because he does that too. It's been a long wait and it's not over.

Hang in there, at least Suzy is back from her abduction, her so called abduction. Word is she ran off with a Snark who was a lark, but it all waffled when he wiffled, which made dear Suzy sniffle.

I'm just glad the burpy girl didn't eat her. M'fing zombies...

[Suzanna Stormborn]

What you have only been having the same debate on R+L=J for ever, and now your board? Feel the same way actually though it predates the update. Changing faces, less challenging debates, nothing to talk about, new threads by new people who only rehash the same old theories and debates. Latest trend all sympathetic characters will turn evil. It's the calm before the storm, season 6 which will go backwards as much as it goes forward. Here is all you need to know, it's not a particularly complex story so after a couple of years all debates are basically worn to the nub. Lucky for everyone else Martin is a particularly slow writer when he is not writing fast because he does that too. It's been a long wait and it's not over.

Hang in there, at least Suzy is back from her abduction, her so called abduction. Word is she ran off with a Snark who was a lark, but it all waffled when he wiffled, which made dear Suzy sniffle.

truth is that my new job frowns on anything not work related.  Never been in such a strict office!!

What does HBO do when it runs out of content???? go backwards...... genius  really, allow The George another year to give them more pages.

 

I'm just glad the burpy girl didn't eat her. M'fing zombies...

me too, phew, barely made it out of there alive!!

Also I want to go on record as calling that Jon will retake winterfell from Ramsay with Wun-wun, probably warging him. Wun-wun will rip off the gates of Winterfell.  Which was foretold in Sansa's snow castle where the giant tore down the gate.  And reinforced by this I noticed the other day;

Jon SoS

"Then the spearmen must have come to the fore, stabbing through the bars.  Still the giant found the strength to reach through, twist the head off Spotted Pate, seize the iron gate, and wrench the bars apart.  Links of broken chain lay strewn across the floor. One giant.  All this was the work of one giant."

 

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Aerys fathering a difformed bastard with Cersei's mother... Not really encouraging for a match between the 2 families...

Yeah it all goes back to Aerys being so jealous of Tywin. "The crowd clapped twice as loud for the Hand than the King."

So he put a bastard in Tywins cradle, refused Cersei for Rhaegar and finally stole Jaime from Tywin, leaving no one but his own bastard Tyrion as Tywin's heir to CR.

[Ser Creighton]

truth is that my new job frowns on anything not work related.  Never been in such a strict office!!

What does HBO do when it runs out of content???? go backwards...... genius  really, allow The George another year to give them more pages.

 

me too, phew, barely made it out of there alive!!

Also I want to go on record as calling that Jon will retake winterfell from Ramsay with Wun-wun, probably warging him. Wun-wun will rip off the gates of Winterfell.  Which was foretold in Sansa's snow castle where the giant tore down the gate.  And reinforced by this I noticed the other day;

Jon SoS

"Then the spearmen must have come to the fore, stabbing through the bars.  Still the giant found the strength to reach through, twist the head off Spotted Pate, seize the iron gate, and wrench the bars apart.  Links of broken chain lay strewn across the floor. One giant.  All this was the work of one giant."

 

I don't know if it's backwards exactly, but their is stuff from like Crows they are doing this year. And then they do things like a charcter fill in for another character. Easy guess and I made way back when last season ended was that Jon will fill in for Stannis, and Sansa will fill in for LSH to an extent at least. But there story from the books will probably take a back stay. Like Jon is resurrected, fine but then what. Oh umm he leads the Umbers against Ramsey??? But wasn't Stannis doing just that? Can't really do it with Dany at least. But oh look Tyrion and Varys rule Meereen, don't think we are getting that in the books. Jaime in Dorne was a perfect example, utterly pointless, and now what, probably the riverlands. So do something pointless and them go backwards. You know they could of killed off Mycella with a letter, they didn't even use the same actress, she never even had a plot, they didn't even give the two main Dornish POV's.

The plot was I want revenge for Oberyn, I must kill the little girl something Oberyn would detest and does not really gain me anything other than a death sentence.

Hi I am Tryst and I can't act or sing. I am here because? Well I don't really know why I am here but I do have one of the worst romances put to screen since Twilight.

But oh no the concubine going to do whatever she wants, because she just hates this little girl so much, because Oberyn made a choice free of will.  Grrrrrrrrrrrr I'll make angry face since I have little dialogue. But don't worry daughter has boobs and a bad pussy so neither of us needs to be able to perform right?

Wanna play Mercy? Why is it in there? Because one of the producers played Mercy with Jason and got his ass kicked and thought it was funny.

Oh gosh someone just tried to kill Mycella, but its okay Jaime and Bronn screwed up that plan and oh wait now she's dead. Gosh and I was so attached to her and that story. And they needed that story because they were desperate to ruin the careers of multiple actors. Yes lots of people wanted to see Dorne, they just thought it would be like in the books, or close to the books, or in some way representative of the books. Or you could right the entire Dornish plot from the show like this, Jaime and Bronn go to Dorne to save Mycella. They fail when they let the woman they new wanted her dead, kill her, in front of them, without anyone saying hmmmm that kiss looked a bit odd. But nothing could happen here in the land famous for poison and assassinations. Now even though you just tried to kill her and your daughter almost killed Bronn using poison, why don't you go ahead and give her a big long kiss goodbye.

[Jô Maltese]

Yeah it all goes back to Aerys being so jealous of Tywin. "The crowd clapped twice as loud for the Hand than the King."

So he put a bastard in Tywins cradle, refused Cersei for Rhaegar and finally stole Jaime from Tywin, leaving no one but his own bastard Tyrion as Tywin's heir to CR.

What I meant was, if Aerys knew (or strongly suspected) that Tyrion was his son, the fact that Tyrion was a dwarf certainly made him reluctant to mix the Lannisters genes with those of the Targaryens in order to perpetuate the line of the Dragons. Hence his spurning of Cersei for Rhaegar. And Tywin's  cold furore.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

What I meant was, if Aerys knew (or strongly suspected) that Tyrion was his son, the fact that Tyrion was a dwarf certainly made him reluctant to mix the Lannisters genes with those of the Targaryens in order to perpetuate the line of the Dragons. Hence his spurning of Cersei for Rhaegar. And Tywin's  cold furore.

Oh I see what you mean, never thought of that.  But it does make sense.  Lannisters were always perfect shining examples of our species right?  I don't recall any malformed children or dwarfism or anything like that in the Lannister family tree otherwise?  I'm sure knowledge of fathering a child like that also ate at Aerys and angered him, especially compared to the twins.

One thing though, Why was Aerys so dissatisfied with Rhaegar I wonder? His actions are not of a man who is content with his family and children. Like, what was his big problem?

 

 

[Shmedricko]

First description of Tyrion's hair, when Jon sees him enter Winterfell's great hall:

One green eye and one black one peered out from under a lank fall of hair so blond it seemed white. (Jon I, AGOT)

First description of Maekar Targaryen's hair, when Dunk enters Ashford's great hall:

His straight hair and square-cut beard were so fair they seemed white in the dimness of the hall, but as he got closer he saw that they were in truth a pale silvery color touched with gold. (The Hedge Knight)

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Oh I see what you mean, never thought of that.  But it does make sense.  Lannisters were always perfect shining examples of our species right?  I don't recall any malformed children or dwarfism or anything like that in the Lannister family tree otherwise?  I'm sure knowledge of fathering a child like that also ate at Aerys and angered him, especially compared to the twins.

One thing though, Why was Aerys so dissatisfied with Rhaegar I wonder? His actions are not of a man who is content with his family and children. Like, what was his big problem?

 

 

 

Really?  This seems obvious. think you said yourself how jealous Aerys was of Tywin, because others respected him more than Aerys.

Well, same goes for Rhaegar.  Everyone thought the Silver Prince would revive the Dynasty with his Greatness.  I'm sure that would be hard for a talentless jealousy prone tool like Aerys to accept (just as it was with Tywin).  Not to mention that, eventually, Rhaegar really was trying to overthrow him.  

Also from the text we get few examples of Aerys being anything but contemptuous (or worse) of most other human beings.  It's just the kind of swell guy he was.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

 

Really?  This seems obvious. think you said yourself how jealous Aerys was of Tywin, because others respected him more than Aerys.

Well, same goes for Rhaegar.  Everyone thought the Silver Prince would revive the Dynasty with his Greatness.  I'm sure that would be hard for a talentless jealousy prone tool like Aerys to accept (just as it was with Tywin).  Not to mention that, eventually, Rhaegar really was trying to overthrow him.  

Also from the text we get few examples of Aerys being anything but contemptuous (or worse) of most other human beings.  It's just the kind of swell guy he was.

Yeah but I meant; why was Aerys so jealous of the twins being born, at that point Rhaegar was still very young and perfect. And at that point Aerys was still of sane mind, So why begrudge or be jealous of Tywin having healthy twins?  Unless he was really just jealous of Tywin fathering children on Joanna......

[StarkofWinterfell]

 

Really?  This seems obvious. think you said yourself how jealous Aerys was of Tywin, because others respected him more than Aerys.

Well, same goes for Rhaegar.  Everyone thought the Silver Prince would revive the Dynasty with his Greatness.  I'm sure that would be hard for a talentless jealousy prone tool like Aerys to accept (just as it was with Tywin).  Not to mention that, eventually, Rhaegar really was trying to overthrow him.  

Also from the text we get few examples of Aerys being anything but contemptuous (or worse) of most other human beings.  It's just the kind of swell guy he was.

Not so. I know this thread is for A+L=J (which I believe) but I just wanted to point out that Aerys was indeed a charming fellow in his early days. His imprisonment I think really drove him mad

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Not so. I know this thread is for A+L=J (which I believe) but I just wanted to point out that Aerys was indeed a charming fellow in his early days. His imprisonment I think really drove him mad

A lot of assholes can be charming when they want to be.  I tend to think his inprisonment hardened him, and led to him not bothering to filter himself any longer, but that his sadistic tendencies and basic personality were there all along.  I don't think that a bad experience is going to cause someone to suddenly be a raging prick when they were a 100% great person before.  

But anyway I thought we were discussing why Aerys was happy with Rhaegar.  Was Rhaegar already born at the time of Duskendale?

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Yeah but I meant; why was Aerys so jealous of the twins being born, at that point Rhaegar was still very young and perfect. And at that point Aerys was still of sane mind, So why begrudge or be jealous of Tywin having healthy twins?  Unless he was really just jealous of Tywin fathering children on Joanna......

 yes I think the last.  Aerys i think was always a jealous sort of person, Nothing to do with Rhaegar except so far as he disliked Rhaella and wanted Johanna.  Of course I know you think Johanna and Aerys were actually lovers, and I don't.  Either way him being jealous makes perfect sense to me, also as a motivator for him to later father Tyrion.