Rant & Rave without repercussion S 5/S 6 speculation continued [book and show spoilers]

[Alayne's Shadow.]

A "rant and rave" thread is meant for over the top criticizing. Actually what happens here is to channel ranting and keeping it away from serious threads. People who call showmakers pervert should not be overly sensitive themselves. Deal with it.

Apart from that I was not criticizing, I was stating a fact: the Outlander fans are here. Well I am amongst them :).

I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, then. Peace out.  It's always about thought police though, and I don't appreciate it one bit. Not being overly sensitive at all, just clarifying my thoughts. 

 

Anyway, I have no problem ranting. After all, I was just talking about other book-readers this morning in my class and they all thought that Dorne was one of the worst things they've seen this year. One tried to discuss Winterfell, but we eventually reached a conclusion: We'll never understand why Arya never called herself Cat. And a friend asked me if she even met the cat in the show. 

[JonCon's Red Beard]

actually I watch Outlander, so it concerns me, contrary to you.

http://www.hitfix.com/harpy/recap-outlander-what-did-i-just-watch

and yet I hugely enjoy Outlander, nearly as much as GOT. I feel no need to rant off, I simply am a little irritated. And sexual violence against men is in no way better or less violent than sexual violence against women.

I agree with this. In fact, I think there is more sexual violence in Outlander than in ASOIAF. At least, the one that happens to the main characters on screen (it's like a rite of passage for the Frasers). The difference is that they deal with the situation and just don't brush it off.

There is one scene in book 3 (I think) in which both Jamie and Brianna discuss the fact they both were raped and how they reacted to it. Jaime helped her to move on and try to heal.

 

[TepidHands]

Thing is, the two shows are so easy to compare: Both are works of somewhat historical fantasy based on beloved books. One is reverent, the other is not. Both have adult stories. One is smirky; the other lets the nudity and sexual situations arise from characterization. One honors the book fans; one seems to regard book fans with distrust.  One is believable; the other is infuriating. 

Anyone who says  this thread is for "over the top" ranting hasn't read it carefully. Or that person is trolling. 

 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

One is a soapy chick lit lightweight historical drama , and one is game of thrones. So yes easy to compare them.

[TepidHands]

Sigh. Trolls go on my ignore list, so I won't read it, but gods be good, are these "prime" trolls persistent.

On Outlander, my HUSBAND, engineer, stereotypically un "romantic," loves the hell out of " Outlander.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I was wondering if anyone dropped off this interview with the Septa Unella actress, aka The Shame Nun.  It's a damn shame that she may be the most interesting, and least offensive, of D&D's dreck from season 5.  Then again, maybe The Shame Nun just shines singularly in contrast with the mess that they made of Cersei's Walk?  The could be why I don't find The Shame Nun offensive.  The internet nickname bugs me, but.....that's another story, LOL

 

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/game-of-thrones-shame-nun-interview-152144137.html

[The Fattest Leech]

#1- Sigh. Trolls go on my ignore list, so I won't read it, but gods becgood, are these "prime" trolls persistent.

#2- On Outlander, my HUSBAND, engineer, stereotypically un "romantic," loves the hell out of " Outlander.

#1- I'm grabbin' the popcorn because here we go again with the "primes"  

#2- Same here with my boring husband and me. We started watching Outlander a while back but haven't been able to keep up consistently. He was in to it quicker then I was and he still asks about it. We just need to sell our kid for the weekend so we can have some time to sit and binge watch to catch up. 

[Le Cygne]

Trolls will be trolls!

Some people use an example to compare it with GoT, while others just comment to criticize other comments, without speaking about GoT at all.

But still, we're the ones off topic, right!

Come on people, responding to such nonsense turns my ignore list useless!

Yes to all of this. 

[LongRider]

Why talk about Outlander on this thread?  It has to do with comparing a show that  strives to have a quality adaptation that is true to the book and respectful to it's fans, with an adaptation that is not true to the book, respectful to fans or even bothers with a coherent story.

The shine of Outlander tends to illuminate the flaws of GOT, and since many GOT fans watch both they talk about both.   D'uh!  No brainer.

[Le Cygne]

Why talk about Outlander on this thread?  It has to do with comparing a show that  strives to have a quality adaptation that is true to the book and respectful to it's fans, with an adaptation that is not true to the book, respectful to fans or even bothers with a coherent story.

The shine of Outlander tends to illuminate the flaws of GOT, and since many GOT fans watch both they talk about both.   D'uh!  No brainer.

YES. Compare and contrast is a standard technique for critique.

And anyone who wants to debate, please take it to another thread. 

[Valetudo]

Let's infuriate the trolls a little more by talking about Outlander again!

I really liked, during the podcasts, to hear them say that they doesn't want to "dumb down" the show because they trust their viewers. And they talked about it multiple times. Compare that to the necessity for GoT to present us Merryn Trant as the absolute Devil to justify is murder.

[Le Cygne]

The podcasts were so wonderful. It's like a class in adaptation. 

I like that the showrunner seeks feedback, too. He hires women writers and directors, and his producing partner is a woman. So there's a nice balance, he checks himself, asks, am I thinking of this from my own perspective, or putting myself in Claire's shoes. And he listens. 

I like that he is into artistry, they want the story to be beautifully told,  not just check off plot points. I like that they worry, did we get it right, they learn as they go, they really want to get this right, as you said.

And kudos to Starz, because they are on agreement about this approach. There are more interesting points, I have been listening to interviews, too, it's been fascinating to listen to the team, how they approach the adaptation.

[Valetudo]

That's right, huge kudos to Starz to let them do it like they want and to encourage it.

It's almost like in sports:

 Outlander is like a team trying to use an exciting tactic (doing it right). They know that's what the fans like to see, even if the results (fans numbers) could maybe have been better another way. In the end, they hope their tactic will give them good results, keeping both fans and owner happy.

GoT , on the other end, is like the new "analitics heavy" teams where they only do what's most efficient, turning it boring to watch even if it has the best results. In the end, these teams can win championships but a big portion of their fans is sad because they don't like to see them play.

[Le Cygne]

Exactly. I've listened to every bit of commentary for this show, too, and read many interviews, and it couldn't be a more different approach, in so many ways. And I can't help but think how much better this show could have been, with a better approach.

Like you said, that the readers liked something is valuable on a number of levels. Also the author has spent a lot of time honing dialogue, and making actions harmonious with characterization, not only where the characters have been, but where they are going.

In other words, you use this to your advantage, this wealth of knowledge, and this tried and true story, that has sold millions, and has a devoted following. There's something that's right about it, something that appealed very strongly to many people.

I think I quoted this before, but this is the man who made Gone With the Wind, a very good adaptation (I read the book, too). David Selznick:

"I have learned to avoid trying to improve on success. One never knows what chemicals have gone to make up something that has appealed to millions of people."

[JonCon's Red Beard]

"Omg, I show for women! Who would watch that?!"

 

WOMEN. THOSE WOULD WATCH THAT.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I was wondering if anyone dropped off this interview with the Septa Unella actress, aka The Shame Nun.  It's a damn shame that she may be the most interesting, and least offensive, of D&D's dreck from season 5.  Then again, maybe The Shame Nun just shines singularly in contrast with the mess that they made of Cersei's Walk?  The could be why I don't find The Shame Nun offensive.  The internet nickname bugs me, but.....that's another story, LOL

 

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/game-of-thrones-shame-nun-interview-152144137.html

It's actually kinda sad that she's the more memorable character. She and Karsi. People can have feelings for minor characters, fgs.

Also, I do get mad by the fact she's called a nun. SHE'S A SEPTA! <O>

[Le Cygne]

Oh, and someone asked Ron Moore, do you try to do something to get more men watch the show (I remember GRRM said the network used to bug them when he was writing Beauty and the Beast to get men to watch) and he said that never even comes up, they just want to make it the best show possible.

[Le Cygne]

Quoting Ran:

The topic of the thread is discussing things you disliked about the episode. It is not a place to throw insults at one another or to act as if he normal rules of the forum do not apply. Discussion of why people disliked something is permitted, but remember the topic at hand -- this is not a debate thread, it's a discussion thread specifically about episode details or events that posters disliked.

[Le Cygne]

Articles talk about the female gaze a lot, how other shows like Outlander are handling that better.

Two things that show did that were effective, one, he said he deliberately chose to have a female writer and director for the wedding night episode, because Claire's sexuality was very important to show. Two, he also is taking a story approach to sexuality. How does this develop the characters and show their stories.

And one of my biggest disappointments was Dany and Daario. Because sexuality was a huge part of what was driving Dany's story, it wasn't just an infatuation, it was something that was empowering to her, to fully realize her true nature (to embrace the dragon/to embrace Daario), and she expressed that sexually. But they missed that.

Oh, also Sansa and Brienne, how could I forget. Beauty and the Beast is a story of sexual awakening, and they didn't show the female perspectives. They made Sansa about sexual manipulation/rape, and Brienne about revenge. They even had Sansa say, "I know what you want" without exploring what she wants (and it's explored for both women in the books, in very good stories they are not showing).

Here's the story approach:

I just said to everybody, all right, when we do these scenes, let's try to make them real. Let's try not to do TV sex, which, none of us have TV sex, but we have real sex. So let's try to make them really about a man and a woman getting to know each other, a man and a woman who are married, a man and a woman in different stages of their relationship. And let's not make it gratuitous, let's not just show nudity, but let's make sure that any time we're going to do this, it's for a reason. We're showing something about their relationship, where they are with each other there's an emotional arc that we're watching through those scenes, so it's part of their relationship. So it's not OK, time to take the tops off kind of a thing.

 

[Xray the Enforcer]

[mod] Stick to topic, please. [/mod]