Paris attacks 13-11-15

[Fragile Bird]

I never cease to be amazed and stunned at how people are willing to believe every tragic event that occurs in the world has the hand of the victims' government behind it.

[Tijgy]

I never cease to be amazed and stunned at how people are willing to believe every tragic event that occurs in the world has the hand of the victims' government behind it.

Belgium is not really the victim and I do not believe they intentionally were behind the attacks. But the Belgian authorities, policies and the media from the Flemish and the French-speaking communities are unintentionally! partly responsible for the attacks. 

The day after the attacks I was just really mad at them. And now the Belgian government is making me sick by their charm offensive in the media. Really just shut up, stop making measures who are making no sense, try to see how you failed Belgium and Europe and give the security services, the police and justice enough means to protect. 

[Shryke]

I never cease to be amazed and stunned at how people are willing to believe every tragic event that occurs in the world has the hand of the victims' government behind it.

It's actually not terribly surprising. Conspiracy theory thinking is based alot in the brains love of finding patterns (brains LOVE patterns) and because it's more comforting and easier to understand if there's a plan rather then just utterly random shit happening.

[Ramsay Gimp]

It's actually not terribly surprising. Conspiracy theory thinking is based alot in the brains love of finding patterns (brains LOVE patterns) and because it's more comforting and easier to understand if there's a plan rather then just utterly random shit happening.

Dismissing all cynical or conspiratorial explanations out of hand is also rooted more in psychology than evidence. It feels better to assume that our government is telling the truth about its actions and intentions, especially when you like the President. But we know for a fact that shocking government conspiracies have happened at high levels. Watergate, Project MKULTRA, Operation Mockingbird, and Iran-Contra would all sound like fringe conspiracy theories if they hadn't been exposed. Of course that doesn't mean Paris or 9/11 were inside jobs - that's wacky. But people often paint "conspiracy theorists" with too broad a brush. 

[Toth]

Dismissing all cynical or conspiratorial explanations out of hand is also rooted more in psychology than evidence. It feels better to assume that our government is telling the truth about its actions and intentions, especially when you like the President. But we know for a fact that shocking government conspiracies have happened at high levels. Watergate, Project MKULTRA, Operation Mockingbird, and Iran-Contra would all sound like fringe conspiracy theories if they hadn't been exposed. Of course that doesn't mean Paris or 9/11 were inside jobs - that's wacky. But people often paint "conspiracy theorists" with too broad a brush. 

Agreed. But you should always keep in mind what exactly the gain of the governments in question is in all these theories and how the repercussions would look like if it gets exposed. Most of the time incompetence is a far more logical explanation than the assumption that our governments are downright malicious.

[Shryke]

Dismissing all cynical or conspiratorial explanations out of hand is also rooted more in psychology than evidence. It feels better to assume that our government is telling the truth about its actions and intentions, especially when you like the President. But we know for a fact that shocking government conspiracies have happened at high levels. Watergate, Project MKULTRA, Operation Mockingbird, and Iran-Contra would all sound like fringe conspiracy theories if they hadn't been exposed. Of course that doesn't mean Paris or 9/11 were inside jobs - that's wacky. But people often paint "conspiracy theorists" with too broad a brush. 

The key difference here being that you know about those. The biggest problem with basically every crazy inside job theory is the idea that it could be kept secret. When it comes to this kind of thing, the bigger and crazier your theory gets the less plausible it becomes.

[Biglose]

The problem is not so much the number of people who know, it has more to do with general interest and intentions.

If size would make everything a non issue rotherham would not have been possible and so many other scandals.

The major thing you need is, that everybody needs to have an interest in keeping it a secret. This is quite impossible in terror attacks, because outing it would mean instand fame on a popstar level. Not to mention that there is the chance that somebody died you have known.

 

[Tijgy]

They do not give up. There are new house searches today in Molenbeek (in the same street). 

[Tijgy]

Apparently if the police would have stopped Salah Abdeslam a quarter later at the border, they would have been able to stop him. The police did not yet had the right information to stop him. 

And due to the fact house searches in Belgium are not possible in the night, the police failed to arrest him because they could not enter a house at the right moment according to our minister of Justice. Yeah, those fucking rights which ensure the public the authorities are not able to search your houses at the time when YOU ARE ASLEEP. Really, I do not want people wanting to enter my home at 2 am. People want to have their rest. And he is one place. He either had to leave that place or had to wait until it was dawn, when it is possible to do a house search. So I do not really see the problem. Still we must be for measures to help the fight against terrorism, no? Even if it might a danger to your sleep? 

There was also actually a very real threat to Brussels when Brussels went to a total lockdown few week ago?

x

EDIT: And the federal prosecutor do agree with me by the way concerning the house searchers at the night. Or at least about the fact it would not have mattered that much.

[Tijgy]

Last tuesday, a house search in a apartment, connected to some terrorists, turned into a shooting incident between the authorities and probably some terrorists. One of them was shot dead and two fled. 

However, more interestingly, they found a fingerprint of Salah Abdeslam in that apartment (the Guardian says DNA but the Belgian news says it is a fingerprint and they quote directly the federal prosecutor). (And Salah is the only surviving terrorist from Paris Attacks and they still did not arrest him).  

http://deredactie.be/cm/vrtnieuws/regio/brussel/2.43399?eid=1.2604600

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/mar/18/paris-attackers-dna-found-in-belgian-raid-apartment

http://www.lesoir.be/1154795/article/actualite/belgique/2016-03-18/forest-des-empreintes-salah-abdeslam-ont-ete-retrouvees-dans-l-appartement-direc

[Tijgy]

And I think it just confirmed by the police that Salah has been arrested. 

 

[Tijgy]

And on 19.00 the Belgian PM and French president will do a press conference together. 

The police action is not completely ended because there might be still some targets (two I believe) in the building. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Excellent news that they caught him alive. 

[Wouter]

18 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Excellent news that they caught him alive. 

He's not going to talk. Dead would have been better.

When he was arrested, the police in Molenbeek was intimidated by some 100 young men from the neighbourhood, who did not want to allow the police to be present in "their" streets. Taken with his ability to remain underground for 126 days in Brussels, it looks like IS-terrorists have serious networks of sympathisers in the Islamic "hotspots" of Brussels.

Not that this is in any way surprising.

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

The fanfare over the capturing of an individual cell leader is rather ridiculous. Every damn news channel is dominated by it.

In truth, this is a side issue. Measures to deal with the larger problem are all that really matters.

It is rather pathetic, truth be told, the way such a small development is being celebrated. But I guess it fits the liberal narrative that the threat is from small groups of extremists who don't have the support or sympathy of the broader community. A narrative they wish to preserve at all costs, I guess.

So celebrate the capture of one footsoldier out of thousands, as if he is more than just a miniscule part of the real war that is being fought.

 

 

[Kalbear]

Capturing extremists is unusual enough to be newsworthy. Especially those who have carried out an attack. The idea that it isn't is pretty silly. 

 

Also, a lot of people do view terrorist actions as those desiring justice. As such, bringing mass murderers to justice will also be newsworthy.

[James Arryn]

12 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

The fanfare over the capturing of an individual cell leader is rather ridiculous. Every damn news channel is dominated by it.

In truth, this is a side issue. Measures to deal with the larger problem are all that really matters.

It is rather pathetic, truth be told, the way such a small development is being celebrated. But I guess it fits the liberal narrative that the threat is from small groups of extremists who don't have the support or sympathy of the broader community. A narrative they wish to preserve at all costs, I guess.

So celebrate the capture of one footsoldier out of thousands, as if he is more than just a miniscule part of the real war that is being fought.

 

 

Interesting. Your argument is that liberals try and make the threat seem smaller than it is. Ok, forgetting it's merits, does that mean you equally believe that conservatives try and make the threat seem bigger than it is? Or are you/they the threat assessment goldilocks watches on Fox?

[Tijgy]

4 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Interesting. Your argument is that liberals try and make the threat seem smaller than it is. Ok, forgetting it's merits, does that mean you equally believe that conservatives try and make the threat seem bigger than it is? Or are you/they the threat assessment goldilocks watches on Fox?

I am not really sure where FNR is from, but from a Belgian perspective he is kind of right. Like Wouter said, there are rumors a large part of the neighborhood did know where he was, a group of young people started to hail Salah Abdeslam, ... And this problem should finally be addressed and not covered up like they are again doing in Belgium by saying everything all is well in Molenbeek. 

Personally, I belief it is an important victory and an important signal that the authorities finally found him (and I think it is normal that in Belgium the same evening we had hours of news reports on it) but his capture does indeed not diminish the fact the threat is not gone and there are probably still a lot of networks in Belgium. 

[jarl the climber]

1 hour ago, Tijgy said:

I am not really sure where FNR is from, but from a Belgian perspective he is kind of right. Like Wouter said, there are rumors a large part of the neighborhood did know where he was, a group of young people started to hail Salah Abdeslam, ... And this problem should finally be addressed and not covered up like they are again doing in Belgium by saying everything all is well in Molenbeek. 

Personally, I belief it is an important victory and an important signal that the authorities finally found him (and I think it is normal that in Belgium the same evening we had hours of news reports on it) but his capture does indeed not diminish the fact the threat is not gone and there are probably still a lot of networks in Belgium. 

That is a disturbing rumor if its true. Some of the talking heads in the US said authorities in Belgium knew where he was for weeks and that it took so long to get him because the arrest had to be carefully planned out like a military operation because so many of the residents in the neighborhood likely sympathized with him.

[Tijgy]

19 minutes ago, jarl the climber said:

That is a disturbing rumor if its true. Some of the talking heads in the US said authorities in Belgium knew where he was for weeks and that it took so long to get him because the arrest had to be carefully planned out like a military operation because so many of the residents in the neighborhood likely sympathized with him.

I believe the Belgian authorities could have know this from week. The Belgian authorities did the last months more than 100 house searches. This tuesday there was one in Vorst/Forest done by six agents and they believed this would be a normal house search. They were however shot by some terrorists (and one of them was Salah Abdeslam). One terrorist was killed and the two others (Abdeslam and one of his companions) fled. At that time the federal prosecutor said this house search had not directly do to something with Abdeslam and they certainly did not believe he was there at that moment because those six agents were completely unprepared for a shooting incident. (And I know this very good because my friend and I were talking about that this house search was not about Abdeslam). 

They found later a finger print of him in that apartment which made it clear he had at least been there (this was brought out thanks a leak by the french authorities). And they were able to place him at the right house for his arrest because he apparently ordered a pizza (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/salah-abdeslam-isis-suspicious-pizza-order-led-police-to-paris-attackers-hideout-at-molenbeek-flat-a6941111.html). 

There are however conflicting stories if the arrest would originally have happened this friday or this saturday. First, there were some rumors it should normally have happened saturday but thanks to that leak of that fingerprint on friday the authorities found it necessary to do the arrest on friday to ensure Abdeslam would not flee again. I think the Minister of Interior said the original plan was to do it on friday however a higher officer of the police said the mission was indeed advanced. 

Because of this I personally do not believe the Belgian authorities knew where Abdeslam was the entire time but I have of course no inside information in the doings of the federal prosecutor office or the Belgian security office.