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Lord Wraith

R+L=J v.157

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BTW, do you think that when the reveal is done, GRRM could be prompted into a sort of "analysis" explaining the clues that he had laid? I'd very much like to know if our interpretation of the subtler ones is correct.

Hmm.. Somehow, I don't think so. But by knowing the entire story, we might be able to tell much more about the different interpretations readers have given to potential RLJ clues, and whether they are correct or not.

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Well, from what we know, GRRM do not want to have a TV series or movie series telling about the immediate past, the tourney of Harrenhal and Robert Rebellion, when asked on interviews.

So to me, he's going to go through to more details of what happen during that time, especially around the time of the tourney, in the coming books.

We have in this video, Linda saying that he could write a lot about what happened at and surrounding the tourney of Harrenhal, that there is a lot that we do not know yet.

I believe that GRRM will give us more detail about what happened as it relates to Jon's true origin, but true to his style, he's going to sprinkle hints through various POVs and ultimately to the final reveal itself.  

That final reveal I believe is through Ned's spirit, who was unable to rest in peace due to his promise he did to Lyanna not being fulfilled yet, telling her that when Jon is able to understand, he will know who he really is, and until then, Ned won't be able to rest peacefully.

 

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That final reveal I believe is through Ned's spirit, who was unable to rest in peace due to his promise he did to Lyanna not being fulfilled yet, telling her that when Jon is able to understand, he will know who he really is, and until then, Ned won't be able to rest peacefully.

 

If ghost can work this way, I am sure ghosts of Lyanna and rhaegar already showed up and told their savior love child who he was and what he should do and how to claim his Iron Throne. 

Lyanna must be a very wild and hot tempered spirit, ready to break the rules of death world much more than Ned Stark, so no need to wait for Ned to haunt around. 

 

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Ser Creighton,

there is a good chance that we'll get the tale of Rhaegar and Lyanna and the complete story of the knights at the tower, but I'd not be sure that questions of succession and stuff will actually come up there. I really assume that both Ned and his gang as well as the KG had better things to do to exchange their views as to who was the true (Targaryen) king at this point.

Jon Snow's claim may be discussed after the reveal but it will then be discussed mostly in the actual political situation at this time. Just as Aegon and his gang will most likely never put much effort into discuss the validity of Aegon's claim in comparison to Viserys' claim because the latter is dead, there most certainly won't be any discussion whether Jon Snow had a better claim than Viserys (or the hidden Aegon) back then because nobody should care about this stuff nearly twenty years later.

But then, I'm not really sure whether Jon's claim will come up at all in any meaningful political way at all. We don't yet know how his story will play out, but if he (has to/decides to) stay with the NW or dies during the upcoming fight with the Others before anyone has even time to discuss this thing, it will never come up.

The color and roses stuff might certainly be sort of decoded if we get more information on the meaning the winter roses had for Lyanna. Say, are the dead petals Ned remembers the remnants of the crown Rhaegar gave to Lyanna? If so, then it could be confirmed to be a sign for Lyanna's love for Rhaegar just as we right now think it is. But, say, the meaning of the blue rose on the Wall from Dany's vision most likely will never be discussed in-universe. Only Dany has seen that vision, after all, and for it to become a topic in the story she has to remember it years after the fact as well as be told stories about the Lyanna winter roses symbol which I'd not consider to be all that likely.

The series isn't known for actually discussing clues to mysteries within the books. In fact, it is often kept vague if or when POVs in the books caught certain clues and/or figured something out - for instance, we have no idea whatsoever what Sansa remembers or caught from Lysa's rant at the end of ASoS - since she doesn't know about Lysa's letter nor what the hell the tears were Lysa spoke about, she might not really understand what was revealed there. Another example would be Tyrion figuring out the Aegon mystery - what did he figure out exactly when and how much did he already know/suspect when he talked to Haldon? And what exactly does he think about Varys and Illyrio ultimate motivation? He got a lot of clues about the Golden Company, the extinction of House Blackfyre in the male line, Serra, Illyrio's attachment to Aegon, etc. - but we don't know if he concluded anything from that yet.

Usually, the clues in George's books are deliberately placed and obvious enough to be conclusively identified by the attentive reader. You don't have to make huge leaps or think completely out of the box to catch something plot-related. And therefore George doesn't really have to explain anything later on.

But I sure would demand that he reveal unresolved mysteries. As of yet we still don't know who arranged the Mandon Moore attempt on Tyrion's life but I expect to get an explanation on that at some point.

Well if you get the tale of Rhaegar and Lyanna then you would find out if they were married or not. If that occurs then you have an idea where Jon stands in the line. A little clarification on the who was passed over and you have your answer.

I think Aegon is a bad example for you to use, as it is all about succession with him, Tyrion already touched on that along with Varys and Jon Con. Aegon is making a claim that he is the rightful king and true born son of Rhaegar Targaryen, that is why he feels he can claim the throne. Dany is the same way for her that is her birthright.

If you are going to tell the story of Rhaegar and Lyanna there are simple basic questions that need to be answered. Love or hate? Abduction or they Eloped? From Harrenhal till Jon you are talking about years. He has to give some backstory to that, and clearly seems to have some ideas as Martin has stated he could write and entire book about the events at Harrenhall and that was like 10 days long. Martin also tends to throw the King word and make royal implications about Jon in the series, so it seems an obvious guess he will touch on the subject. Even in the treatment his heritage served a purpose and was enough for Martin to mention and those were just the major plot points.

Yeah the clues are pretty simple, at least for some, but people will still argue over them. If you need someone to explain the blue rose growing from a wall of ice to you clue, then it's going to come under the duh answer. Pretending to be oblivious to the rose or trying to skirt around it does not work. Hell the rose made the show, you know the one you said does not touch on clues. You don't need Dany to explain that rose to you, that is an obvious clue. The author even told you a story about Kidnapped brides and blue winter roses and babies. The show hints at clues more than people thing, I mean come on two roses, two Olivers and a birthmark of Dorne. It's actually pretty simple. The tower of Joy this year, the show is going there full throttle, so it seems like it matters. Given that Jon is not the most magical guy and has gotten by on a lot of luck, and with a lot of help it would seem his lineage matters for something. It certainly has not been the Jon wakes up dragons and goes on mystical spirit walks and performs miracles show. They had to actually change his story to make him seem competent, which is ok because this Jon is pushing 30 not 13. 

Ok on to Tyrion and what he knows, my guess is a lot. The author would not pose the questions if there were no answers. You also don't know how much you will get from Varys, not everything the author relates to the reader, is related to a POV, when he drops clues they are for the reader, he is the POV's there is little chance he will surprise himself with a mystery he created and has the answers to. He is simply using mysteries and intrigue to draw in the reader. You want your books to be discussed, you don't want them to be talked because nobody knows what happened.

Look when people become entrenched in a point of view, it often does not matter what the truth is they just want to be right. A lot of times they don't want the answer and will deny, deny deny until they have to change their user name. I think the story is relatively simple, I think the clues are what they appear to be and I think he uses symbolism like he did in his other books. Also very common in fantasy and mythology to use symbolism. We should have winds in the next year or three, and it should answer a lot of questions as book seven should be the climax and the climax is not generally used to pose questions but answer them.

 

 

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Well, from what we know, GRRM do not want to have a TV series or movie series telling about the immediate past, the tourney of Harrenhal and Robert Rebellion, when asked on interviews.

So to me, he's going to go through to more details of what happen during that time, especially around the time of the tourney, in the coming books.

We have in this video, Linda saying that he could write a lot about what happened at and surrounding the tourney of Harrenhal, that there is a lot that we do not know yet.

I believe that GRRM will give us more detail about what happened as it relates to Jon's true origin, but true to his style, he's going to sprinkle hints through various POVs and ultimately to the final reveal itself.  

That final reveal I believe is through Ned's spirit, who was unable to rest in peace due to his promise he did to Lyanna not being fulfilled yet, telling her that when Jon is able to understand, he will know who he really is, and until then, Ned won't be able to rest peacefully.

 

If Ned or anyone relates large parts of this story to the reader it will be via Bran and Dany's visions. Both of whom have already touched on the subject unknowingly. 

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If Ned or anyone relates large parts of this story to the reader it will be via Bran and Dany's visions. Both of whom have already touched on the subject unknowingly. 

I think via Bran is the most likely.  If I recall, Bran saw Ned being sad, and the subject of it was about Jon.  This correlates to when Ned was in the black cells, saying that if he could see Jon again, sit down and talk with him...

To which, I conclude that he will talk to Jon about his true parentage, the final reveal, but Ned died, thus it has to be through his spirit if he indeed will be the one to tell Jon (either while he is in Ghost or once Jon physically arrived and goes inside the crypt).

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If Ned or anyone relates large parts of this story to the reader it will be via Bran and Dany's visions. Both of whom have already touched on the subject unknowingly. 

We have howland reed, the only living man (with name) in the world who was actually in TOJ.

It is mostly likely him who will reveal some truth to jon snow. 

 

 

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I think via Bran is the most likely.  If I recall, Bran saw Ned being sad, and the subject of it was about Jon.  This correlates to when Ned was in the black cells, saying that if he could see Jon again, sit down and talk with him...

To which, I conclude that he will talk to Jon about his true parentage, the final reveal, but Ned died, thus it has to be through his spirit if he indeed will be the one to tell Jon (either while he is in Ghost or once Jon physically arrived and goes inside the crypt).

Bran has a couple of moments with Jon, the 3 Eyed Weirwood, he recalls a dream of being in the crypts and that his father was sad and it had something to do with Jon. He has the vision in the Weirwood cave were Ned is speaking about Jon and his family and wanting Jon to fit in. Dany has related symbolic imagery of Jon, and of course as purple eyes points out you have Howland.

I tend to believe each character will play a part in Jon's back story and that we will get different perspectives of what happened and all of them will probably be incomplete to an extent. Like Howland could give you Harrenhal but not really the events before it or what happened between the abduction on the Tower of Joy, even everything that transpired between Ned and Lyanna at the tower he may not be privy too as he was not in the room and Ned may not have shared everything. I also think the Dayne's will both give some insight and the reader will need to be filled about their own backstory. So I think one source seems unlikely mostly because Martin has not used one source but multiple sources to relate information about Jon.

I guess it also depends on what you are looking for, what information you want to get out of it. Some may say R+L=J good enough that is all I wanted to know. Some may want more KG insight, or more abduction period/missing period insight. For my own part I tend to lean on Archetypal literary criticism when reading Martin. So I tend to look for repetitive symbolism, imagery, archetypes, and narratives. I know a lot of younger people are not that familiar with this form of critical thinking and feel martin is a trope breaker but I have never found that to be all that true. Rather his characters are based off arch types and even follow those patterns it just the questions he asks them along the way are very tough questions and often defined as grey.  It's sort of like saying hey Spider Man you can save Aunt May or Mary Jane but you can't save both. It's owe he chooses to add depth and some realism to his characters.

In almost everything we do pattern recognition exists, weather it is math, reading and writing or a stop light it's human nature, monkey see monkey do. So a simple look at Jon and Archetypes tells you some very basic things, or Martins work as whole. Ice and Fire is primordial imagery, it's classical opposing elements. The seasons, while they may be long there are still 4 of them and in archetypal form Martin is holding true to them, starting with the summer and ending with the spring. The use of death and rebirth myth as outlined by Frazer, which is acted out through the use of growing seasons, Jon Barleycorn who Martin himself has referenced more than once in the work. Or in Frey's theoretical outline he defined seasons slightly different than Frey in that the Summer was the birth of the hero, the fall his tragedy as he moves towards defeat, the winter is death the hero is absent and Darkness ensues, then spring the rebirth of the hero and an end to Darkness. So far Martin has held very true to this pattern. While using this or any form of pattern recognition may lead to anticipation of specific resolutions. Pattern recognition is at the very core of our instincts and learned behavior and is one of are defining characteristics of learning, we all do it because it is instinctual it's why we taught computers to speak binary or why math and music are both actual languages. In this case I find it very difficult to believe Martin has subtly set out to counter an older form of literary criticism that is not even in vogue and has not been since the 50's in order to be this trope breaker some people think he is. Really his characters follow basic patterns it's just the questions or variables he choose to define them with can be very difficult.  We are defined by our choices, it's just some choices are more difficult than others. 

Martin often exhibits patterned behavior, all of his chapters end on act breaks, he uses repetitive themes in all his work, he can only write when he is at home in his office on his old PC, he uses specific numbers over and over and over, 1, 3, 13, 31 etc... He constantly repeats himself, "where do whores go?", that verse appears 13 times in dance. 

We exhibit this same behavior, R+L+J is a perfect example, the name of the theory implies an order of operations. The debates constantly repeat. Most of the differences I find in views tend to be either culturally related or via skepticism, which is related to a lack of comprehension. If you don't know what a stop light is for you can't anticipate a resolution. If you don't understand the archetype you can't anticipate a resolution. It basically comes down to how well someone understand what is being stated. Which is why I often avoid debates here, if someone does not fully understand what is being said how can I explain it to them, I may be able to speak a language that does not mean I can teach it. I learned Japanese in Japan, it's best to experience things in order to learn them. Pattern recognition is at the heart of all languages, writing, reading, expectation, anticipation, skepticism, predictions, theory and resolution. In a game it is the same thing, doesn't matter weather it is chess or football it is all about recognition of patterns and an execution of these patterns to achieve a specific resolution. Martin is no different, he has created anticipation using archetypal patterns and he will give us a resolution. It may be a bit more vague then we like, or someones expectation of the resolution my be slightly different do to cultural norms, but it he will still resolve it.                   

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I have been out of the game and I can't recall all iterations of theories that have been bandied about, but I just had a variation that I am not sure I every recall reading:

Lyanna was alive at the end of the ToJ fight. Ned, Lyanna, and Howland (perhaps servants) go to Starfall to return Dawn and Lyanna gets sick or has complications on the trip.

So Ned's honor to return Dawn is part of what got Lyanna killed.

This may also involve some lie about a Lyanna and Arthur relationship, in order to get the Dayne's help.

Thoughts?

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If Ned or anyone relates large parts of this story to the reader it will be via Bran and Dany's visions. Both of whom have already touched on the subject unknowingly. 

Agreed, I think that we have already seen something like that in the last book with Bran's vision of Ned praying in the godswood, i.e., "please let them be as close as............." in regards to Jon and Robb, or at least that is the speculation.

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Agreed, I think that we have already seen something like that in the last book with Bran's vision of Ned praying in the godswood, i.e., "please let them be as close as............." in regards to Jon and Robb, or at least that is the speculation.

Well I was really referring to people who have passed on with that part of my post. Which I think will matter for the story, but I think other people who are alive will also relate parts of it to the reader. Like Howland, and the maybe Wylla, house Dayne has been floating along with this mystery for some time. I personally want to know why Ashara is so central to this story and her death/undeath whatever it is Martin is planning. Honestly Jon would appear the easy part of the mystery everything that leads up to him is the question and their are a lot of questions.

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Bran has a couple of moments with Jon, the 3 Eyed Weirwood, he recalls a dream of being in the crypts and that his father was sad and it had something to do with Jon. He has the vision in the Weirwood cave were Ned is speaking about Jon and his family and wanting Jon to fit in. Dany has related symbolic imagery of Jon, and of course as purple eyes points out you have Howland.

I tend to believe each character will play a part in Jon's back story and that we will get different perspectives of what happened and all of them will probably be incomplete to an extent. Like Howland could give you Harrenhal but not really the events before it or what happened between the abduction on the Tower of Joy, even everything that transpired between Ned and Lyanna at the tower he may not be privy too as he was not in the room and Ned may not have shared everything. I also think the Dayne's will both give some insight and the reader will need to be filled about their own backstory. So I think one source seems unlikely mostly because Martin has not used one source but multiple sources to relate information about Jon.

I guess it also depends on what you are looking for, what information you want to get out of it. Some may say R+L=J good enough that is all I wanted to know. Some may want more KG insight, or more abduction period/missing period insight. For my own part I tend to lean on Archetypal literary criticism when reading Martin. So I tend to look for repetitive symbolism, imagery, archetypes, and narratives. I know a lot of younger people are not that familiar with this form of critical thinking and feel martin is a trope breaker but I have never found that to be all that true. Rather his characters are based off arch types and even follow those patterns it just the questions he asks them along the way are very tough questions and often defined as grey.  It's sort of like saying hey Spider Man you can save Aunt May or Mary Jane but you can't save both. It's owe he chooses to add depth and some realism to his characters.

In almost everything we do pattern recognition exists, weather it is math, reading and writing or a stop light it's human nature, monkey see monkey do. So a simple look at Jon and Archetypes tells you some very basic things, or Martins work as whole. Ice and Fire is primordial imagery, it's classical opposing elements. The seasons, while they may be long there are still 4 of them and in archetypal form Martin is holding true to them, starting with the summer and ending with the spring. The use of death and rebirth myth as outlined by Frazer, which is acted out through the use of growing seasons, Jon Barleycorn who Martin himself has referenced more than once in the work. Or in Frey's theoretical outline he defined seasons slightly different than Frey in that the Summer was the birth of the hero, the fall his tragedy as he moves towards defeat, the winter is death the hero is absent and Darkness ensues, then spring the rebirth of the hero and an end to Darkness. So far Martin has held very true to this pattern. While using this or any form of pattern recognition may lead to anticipation of specific resolutions. Pattern recognition is at the very core of our instincts and learned behavior and is one of are defining characteristics of learning, we all do it because it is instinctual it's why we taught computers to speak binary or why math and music are both actual languages. In this case I find it very difficult to believe Martin has subtly set out to counter an older form of literary criticism that is not even in vogue and has not been since the 50's in order to be this trope breaker some people think he is. Really his characters follow basic patterns it's just the questions or variables he choose to define them with can be very difficult.  We are defined by our choices, it's just some choices are more difficult than others. 

Martin often exhibits patterned behavior, all of his chapters end on act breaks, he uses repetitive themes in all his work, he can only write when he is at home in his office on his old PC, he uses specific numbers over and over and over, 1, 3, 13, 31 etc... He constantly repeats himself, "where do whores go?", that verse appears 13 times in dance. 

We exhibit this same behavior, R+L+J is a perfect example, the name of the theory implies an order of operations. The debates constantly repeat. Most of the differences I find in views tend to be either culturally related or via skepticism, which is related to a lack of comprehension. If you don't know what a stop light is for you can't anticipate a resolution. If you don't understand the archetype you can't anticipate a resolution. It basically comes down to how well someone understand what is being stated. Which is why I often avoid debates here, if someone does not fully understand what is being said how can I explain it to them, I may be able to speak a language that does not mean I can teach it. I learned Japanese in Japan, it's best to experience things in order to learn them. Pattern recognition is at the heart of all languages, writing, reading, expectation, anticipation, skepticism, predictions, theory and resolution. In a game it is the same thing, doesn't matter weather it is chess or football it is all about recognition of patterns and an execution of these patterns to achieve a specific resolution. Martin is no different, he has created anticipation using archetypal patterns and he will give us a resolution. It may be a bit more vague then we like, or someones expectation of the resolution my be slightly different do to cultural norms, but it he will still resolve it.                   

Ugh.  You're trying too hard.  And if anything, Georgie boy's whole intent was to subvert any established archetypes.  I will concede that Jon might end up being a campbell defined hero going through his 'journey' but outside of that, he's done a pretty good job of recognizing an archetype and smashing it. 

 

I love venturing of here on occasion.  This place has gone off the deep end.  I can pretty much guarantee that George hasn't put nearly anywhere near the amount of effort in establishing 'patterns' with numbers, phrases, or behavior.  Like I said above, you're trying to hard.  

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.Ser Creighton:

But is Ashara really important, or has her mystique grown due to a specific fandom? I mean, the main reason for her character was to shield a baby, and the real mystery woman from shame- Lyanna, Neds sister, not a secret lover. Unless GRRM is responding to some fan pressure to elevate the Dayne story line.

I could see him introducing her as the catalyst for a complicated history in terms of the dynamic between Ned and Brandon

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.Ser Creighton:

But is Ashara really important, or has her mystique grown due to a specific fandom? I mean, the main reason for her character was to shield a baby, and the real mystery woman from shame- Lyanna, Neds sister, not a secret lover. Unless GRRM is responding to some fan pressure to elevate the Dayne story line.

I could see him introducing her as the catalyst for a complicated history in terms of the dynamic between Ned and Brandon

think she's really important, Alia. Both for the backstory of Robert's Rebellion, including Harrenhal, but also in the Aegon or (f)Aegon storyline for the missing five years. Just my opinion though. I expect there is a reason her body wasn't found and we will have vital information from her in the next book.

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Ugh.  You're trying too hard.  And if anything, Georgie boy's whole intent was to subvert any established archetypes.  I will concede that Jon might end up being a campbell defined hero going through his 'journey' but outside of that, he's done a pretty good job of recognizing an archetype and smashing it. 

 

I love venturing of here on occasion.  This place has gone off the deep end.  I can pretty much guarantee that George hasn't put nearly anywhere near the amount of effort in establishing 'patterns' with numbers, phrases, or behavior.  Like I said above, you're trying to hard.  

No he really isn't subverting as much as many think, and he himself Georgie boy as you call him can tell you himself that Jon is the most classical archetype in the story. He has already said it. You agree he basically follows Campbell's archetype but also is a subversion, yet the subversion is not supported. He really isn't all I must subvert everything. Joff, Gregor, Ramsey are pretty cut and dry, he does ask the reader to use perspective which is not the same as subversion. A pattern is not the same as personal growth of character. Jon can have lots of quirks but the pattern is the same. All roads lead to Rome, some of his experiences may be different but the overall pattern of his journey is the same, and headed to the same location.

Did you travel on this road or that road? Well you traveled on a road. Was your tragedy this or that? You still had a tragedy. Did the hero die or did the hero die? He died. How he is reborn is one thing, but being reborn no matter how it is done is the pattern. Honestly you don't have to try hard with instinctual patterns. When the light turns red you don't have to resolve a great debate to stop, you are going stop most of the time because that is what you know to do. What I gave you was a simple truth, it is part of the core of social anthropology. What you don't understand is that patterns exist weather you want them to or not, it's human nature it is what we do. Martin has a writing style in that style are patterns that is why it is his style. You say subversion, well regular use of subversion would be a pattern. That is how it works. Do you brush your teeth? When do you do it? Humans always study patterns, it's our nature, it is a learning device.

I don't have to argue Martin has a pattern of using those numbers we know he does. But knowing he has a pattern and knowing what it means are two different things. I make no claim I know what everything means, only that like many writers he uses symbolism and exhibits patters consistent with human nature. Now when you get into theme or symbolism most writers will lean towards certain symbolism because they are trying to express something, it's a simple literary device and there is a pattern to it's use because the author is conveying a meaning repetitively like the use of blue roses. Take 13, how many ships was Dany offered? 13. How many members are there within the 13? 13. How many companions with the last hero? 13. The Night King? 13. How many years was Bloodraven LC of the Watch? 13. How many core Iron Islands? 31 the inverse of 13. Does it matter? Well flip Bloodravens hair color, eye color and and take a look at Euron's sigil and you will understand why the Crow and the Raven are so easily juxtaposed. If you go into 3, how many head does the dragon have? How many Dragons are there. How many cities were found in the red waste? How many walls around Qarth? How many slaver cities in slavers bay? How many members of the triarch in Volantis? Aegon and his sisters = how many? 3

I can do this all day, repetition creates pattern. Like I said some people look at R=L=J and say good enough, and that's fine, some look at critical thinking as well. You don't have too, nobody does, I do it because I enjoy it, and it is second nature to me. You said I was trying to hard right? Maybe you are not trying hard enough, one of us is using his brain and exploring the text on more than just a superficial level, and one us can't be bothered to. Basically your saying critical thinking and analysis is bad, and that a world famous author like Martin is not smart enough to do it. Then you call him Georgie to imply you understand him on a personal level and attempt to take a stance on superior knowledge when you openly object to critical thinking.

Now I have only written a couple of theories, one them was not only exemplified in the World Book, it's been used on the show repeatedly. You think this is complex? I think it's human nature and every anthropologist on the planet will support that. Because he used it repeatedly enough as a literary device to create a pattern.

Now I can be right or wrong, and have been both many times, but that will not stop me from learning or seeking greater understanding. You basically just made an argument from your own unsupported assumptions and beliefs. You assume what you say is true yet you argue from ignorance and ask me to do the same. Then you appeal to the stone, "gosh that is absurd I know better just because." Then agree Jon is probably a classical hero used in Campbell's pattern. Your argument basically looks like this to me.

"I am right because I believe it and argue out of my own ignorance."

"You are wrong because you use support, critical thinking, and analyze the text, just turn your brain off and do what I say."

"You are also probably right about Jon but I am going to be condescending anyway and I don't want to have to think about it, even though you said nobody actually has to and it's just something you do naturally. A personal choice."

"Stop making personal choices that end up making me think even though I made the choice to read your post and it's really my fault, you know what? Just do what I say. Let me slap a Georgie on my post so it seems like I am really familiar with Martin's work, so much easier than having to try and use actual support, I hope he falls for it, thinking is hard."

That is the core of your post. What am I suppose to do with that?  Authors often work on different levels, it's not really that complex, you can take it at it's most base and rudimentary level or you can explore further, that is up to you. Just like how I explore it is up to me. Being condescending is not going to make you right, being right makes a person right.

Now I did not give you a meaning behind the numbers, could just be rule of three, or 13 is unlucky. I don't know what it is, I just know he does it. The repetition indicates a pattern for him, could be basic foreshadowing, it could hold a personal meaning for him. It could be many things. Sometimes he uses it to juxtapose something. What is the meaning in that? When he is done and in hindsight we will probably have the answer and like everyone else that is what I am waiting for, answers to the many questions he poses to the reader.

On subversion argument is that Dany is a red herring or evil and it's all a trick. Yes the poor, homeless 13 year old orphan we meet who is abused, tormented, sold into slavery, raped, and betrayed, who takes on a cause to fight the brain washing child killing, baby murdering puppy eating, humanity destroying slavers is evil and the slavers are innocent because Martin subverts everything. This is an actual fan theory on subversion, because Dany rides a silver mare and performed in the authors words a miracle and constantly attempts to change the world for the better is actually evil and the slavers are good. No the little magical orphan princess who rides silver mares and dragons and performs miracles is pretty much who she appears to be. He presents her with grey choices like all the characters and gives them all more realistic problems in their own stories that sometimes are the choice between lesser evils rather than easy quick fixes to magical problems because this adds depth to the characters not because he is subverting.

His characters can die so that is subversion, no it actually isn't and most of his primary POV's are still on the field. People assumed Ned was the core POV in thrones, Martin never said this was his story. That is not subversion that is fan assumption. Jaime is trying to redeem himself in some ways. So he is subverting the bad guy trope. No a redemption arc is hardly a subversion, and characters like the Mountain, Ramsey, Joff and the slavers are hardly subversion of villains if anything they are more extreme. He will offer you the use of perspective, like maybe some the scum bags that rode with the mountain thought he was a hero. Poliver or the Tickler thinking the mountain was heroic hardly makes the mountain a hero or a subverted villain trope. Maybe he liked puppies so he is not 100% evil only 99.9% monster.

.Ser Creighton:

But is Ashara really important, or has her mystique grown due to a specific fandom? I mean, the main reason for her character was to shield a baby, and the real mystery woman from shame- Lyanna, Neds sister, not a secret lover. Unless GRRM is responding to some fan pressure to elevate the Dayne story line.

I could see him introducing her as the catalyst for a complicated history in terms of the dynamic between Ned and Brandon

I don't actually mean like Ashara as Jon's mom if that is the fandom you are referring to. Rather her role in the mystery, even Martin has commented on her not being nailed down. She has been brought up enough and it is not always as a reference to Jon. But she has the Harrenhal connection, the swan dive, the missing body, multiple characters mention her, the Daynes in themselves are intriguing, they obviously have a purpose in connection with the mystery. But more than Wylla or Arthur Ashara is kind of all over the place. Her similarities to the Bale the Bard story and her ties to Lyanna, Ned, Arthur, and everyone else. I basically wonder what she did and why she did it. The Dayne connection is heavy with Jon, weather it is Arthur at the tower, Ned at Starfall, Ashara's death, Cat wondering about her, the Starks and Ashara at Harrenhal, Ned Dayne and Arya. Selmy recalling her and the Starks. Or Martin making that remark about her.

 

 

 

 

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ashara is certainly a smokescreen for lyanna. 

nothing else.

i do not think she has any importance later. 

she did not even make it into the show. 

 

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ashara is certainly a smokescreen for lyanna. 

nothing else.

i do not think she has any importance later. 

she did not even make it into the show. 

 

We don't actually know if she will be addressed on the show, little was done about R+L history but this year appears to be different.Smoke screen? Sure, but that also does not mean she is not an important detail in the mystery. After all Ned and house Dayne actually use Wylla as a smoke screen not Ashara. Now part of that is make her seem like a more viable suspect, and that may be all, but when Martin gave lectures on literature and characters he said it didn't matter how small the character was, that it was the authors job to create a story about them and make them as complete as possible. A smoke screen is fine for the readers but in world and in context of the overall story she has a story. Like why did she jump? Even those are vague guesses by characters in the series.

Aegon is fake is an easy assumption, but what is his story is another matter, Martin is not big on leaving plot holes and tries to tie things up. I am sure he will do that with both characters. While they may only be details, to a world builder like Martin the devils are in the details. It's not so much a this is it moment for me, it's a curiosity. You might notice I pay a lot of attention to the details, and when you got a mystery involved the details become that much more significant and interesting. At least for me. You want some certain details on things I assume? Maybe Harrenhal, or backstory on the Others or something? To each their own, it does not matter much if it makes it on the show or not, I am a reader first, how Martin addresses in the books is what I look forward too, not D&D's interpretation or at least I don't look as forward to it as I do the books.

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ashara is certainly a smokescreen for lyanna. 

nothing else.

i do not think she has any importance later. 

she did not even make it into the show. 

 

The show doesn't count for anything to the books. Martin has already noted that the Dayne's are important for the endgame of the story.

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The show doesn't count for anything to the books. Martin has already noted that the Dayne's are important for the endgame of the story.

Oh it counts somewhat, but it's not like an exact copy or anything. It has it's moments and it's reveals. It's just not the books and never really could be but Martin has said they hit the basic details and cut to the chase well enough.

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As to the importance of the tourney of Harrenhal:

George teasing us that he could write a whole book about since that much happened there most certainly isn't restricted to the whole Rhaegar-Lyanna thing. Many important people were there, and each one of them has a story of his or her own.

There clearly is some story to the Starks and Ashara Dayne (either involving Eddard or Brandon or both), lots of plotting on Rhaegar's and Aerys' side, and, according to Yandel, many romantic and sexual interactions.

For instance, we know that Mace Tyrell was at Harrenhal, too. With whom did he interact with? And one really wonders whether young (and then perhaps still not crippled) Willas Tyrell had been with him.

As to the how and when of the Jon Snow revelation:

I'd be reasonably surprised if the thing came out in a way in the next book that had any consequences. I expect either some elaborate puzzle that is only revealed to the reader in a Tansy-like fashion (while Bran could already know the truth in his next POV chapter without ever thinking about it directly, only hinting at the fact that he knows stuff about Jon or is determined to speak to him at one point in the future) or it is revealed to a person who either cannot act on this information, doesn't want to, or does not completely understand what was just told him or her.

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