Star Wars Episode VII THE SPOILERS AWAKEN

[dooog]

So with all this speculation over Rey being Leia or Luke's child it gets me thinking of Max von Sydow's character. Surely he has some greater significance than being a dispatched like a redshirt in the opening minute. Like perhaps he was trusted by Luke to watch over Rey similar to Ben Kenobi & Luke in the original. Or maybe he's Rey's grandfather / Luke's father in law

Looking forward to reading a lot of batshit fan theories over the next 2 years .

[ab aeterno]

So with all this speculation over Rey being Leia or Luke's child it gets me thinking of Max von Sydow's character. Surely he has some greater significance than being a dispatched like a redshirt in the opening minute. Like perhaps he was trusted by Luke to watch over Rey similar to Ben Kenobi & Luke in the original. Or maybe he's Rey's grandfather / Luke's father in law

Looking forward to reading a lot of batshit fan theories over the next 2 years .

I've seen some cool speculation. One of the more popular ideas has been that he's Kanan from SW Rebels. That would be pretty cool. Not saying it's likely though.

[Denvek]

I felt like Adam Driver did a really good job of showing emotional turmoil and dark side-induced craziness. Way better than Hayden Christensen in ROTS.

Agreed. Kylo Ren is whiny emo Anakin done right.

[Rhom]

I liked the scene where Rey tells Ren to take off the mask... and he does and looks totally normal.  We've all been conditioned to expect some hideous scarring or something and I think her character expects it too.  Then all you have is a normal looking young man and it seems to confuse her.

[Free Northman Reborn]

So from some cursory research it seems highly likely that Snoke is in fact Darth Plagueis, Palpatine's old master. If you Google images of Plagueis - all from before the release of The Force Awakens - they look very similar to the holographic Snoke.

This would be a big boost to the new series, in my book, as it gives you an ancient villain, more terrifying than Palpatine himself, who has returned, thus potentially presenting a greater threat than what was faced before.

Plagueis by all accounts was significantly more powerful than Darth Sidious. And he was referred to as the "Wise" because of his deep knowledge of the Force. A reference which I believe was used in association with the Supreme Leader as well, in the new movie.

I really hope this turns out to be the case. It would give more substance to the new threat, as opposed to him being some random Force user that has arises from the sidelines after Palpatine's fall.

EDIT

Just to add, Plagueis's race is Muun. And the Muun are described as tall, thin humanoids, with elongated thin heads and pasty white skin, who are very long lived. Almost exactly how Snoke appeared in his hologram.

[Red Tiger]

....And then Plagueis was killed in his sleep by Palpatine. Yeah, I doubt Snoke is Plagueis.

[TheRevanchist]

So from some cursory research it seems highly likely that Snoke is in fact Darth Plagueis, Palpatine's old master. If you Google images of Plagueis - all from before the release of The Force Awakens - they look very similar to the holographic Snoke.

This would be a big boost to the new series, in my book, as it gives you an ancient villain, more terrifying than Palpatine himself, who has returned, thus potentially presenting a greater threat than what was faced before.

Plagueis by all accounts was significantly more powerful than Darth Sidious. And he was referred to as the "Wise" because of his deep knowledge of the Force. A reference which I believe was used in association with the Supreme Leader as well, in the new movie.

I really hope this turns out to be the case. It would give more substance to the new threat, as opposed to him being some random Force user that has arises from the sidelines after Palpatine's fall.

Not at all. Palps killed him in his sleep (and drunk), because Palps played it always safe, but I think that by that time, Palps was already stronger than Plagueis.

Plagueis however was able to defeat death which is a big bonus. 

The Snoke = Plagueis theory has been along for some time now. It actually makes a lot of sense if Plagueis 'faked' his own death. He knew the prophecy of the chosen one and with Anakin appearing - and with Palps becoming stronger - he might have thought it is a good idea to go underground for some time, until both of them are dead.

Btw, the book isn't canon anymore but it is the best book in Star Wars EU after Heir to the Empire, IMO.

[Free Northman Reborn]

....And then Plagueis was killed in his sleep by Palpatine. Yeah, I doubt Snoke is Plagueis.

Well, that was Palpatine's story. But Plagueis was said to have conquered death itself. Palpatine still mused on the irony that Plagueis was able to save others from death, but not himself. Well, what if he was able to save himself, and then chose to look on from the shadows while Palpatine thought he was the one in control instead. Especially if Plagueis liked what Palpatine was doing with the Empire, and knowing that as  Muun he would long outlive the human Darth Sidious.

 

[Free Northman Reborn]

Not at all. Palps killed him in his sleep (and drunk), because Palps played it always safe, but I think that by that time, Palps was already stronger than Plagueis.
Plagueis however was able to defeat death which is a big bonus. 

The Snoke = Plagueis theory has been along for some time now. It actually makes a lot of sense if Plagueis 'faked' his own death. He knew the prophecy of the chosen one and with Anakin appearing - and with Palps becoming stronger - he might have thought it is a good idea to go underground for some time, until both of them are dead.

Btw, the book isn't canon anymore but it is the best book in Star Wars EU after Heir to the Empire, IMO.

It seems pretty clear by now that Abrams has mixed and matched stuff from the expanded books as he sees fit. The fact that Han Solo calls his son Ben, when it was in fact Luke's son who was named Ben in the books, tells us as much.

It would be easy for Abrams to use a slightly revised version of Plagueis's history as the basis for his new villain.

As for Palpatine vs Plagueis. It is noteworthy that Palpatine only dared kill him in his sleep. And in the films he spoke of Plagueis in almost reverant tones, which is noteworthy, given how he despises almost everyone else.  Certainly, according to Sidious himself, Plagueis was able to do things with the Force that Sidious himself could never achieve.

[TheRevanchist]

If it's the former maybe something about escaping death/prolonging life? Kind of grasping here I don't really know (although what Aranteillo says makes sense)

I know everyone seems to be praising Ford most (and yeah I though he was brilliant) but for me it was all about Diasy Ridley :wub:

Ridley was very good. I was expecting her to be a Hayden Christensen (from the trailers), but she completely surprised me.

Ford was great and had his Obi-Wan moment, which was completely predictable.

[Red Tiger]

Well, that was Palpatine's story. But Plagueis was said to have conquered death itself. Palpatine still mused on the irony that Plagueis was able to save others from death, but not himself. Well, what if he was able to save himself, and then chose to look on from the shadows while Palpatine thought he was the one in control instead. Especially if Plagueis liked what Palpatine was doing with the Empire, and knowing that as  Muun he would long outlive the human Darth Sidious.

 

I dont find this to be an interesting backstory at all. If he is just looking on from the shadows an not actually pulling any strings on Palpatine then Palpatine really IS in control.

I think Snoke will just turn out to be something much more ancient, I would be more interested with him being a revived Darth BANE for instance. But even more than that, I would love for him to be an original creation.

[TheRevanchist]

It seems pretty clear by now that Abrams has mixed and matches stuff from the exanded books as he sees fit. The fact that Han Solo calls his son Ben, when it was in fact Luke's son who was named Ben in the books, tells us as much.

It would be easy for Abrams to use a slightly revised version of Plagueis's history as the basis for his new villain.

Yep, I was quite surprised when he called him Ben (with Ren being basically Jacen Solo). JJ has mixed things - which actually works. Rey is dead cert to be Luke's daughter, but her characterization is similar to Jaina Solo. Basically, he merged Jacen, Jaina and Ben into Rey and Kylo Ren.

It is clear to me that Snoke is inspired from Plagueis. As you say, they might decide for this to not be the case, but it would be better if he is. The Emperor's Old Master would look more threatening than a random powerful Force User.

There are some things which really cannot be coincidence:

- Snoke looks very similar to Darth Plagues (from the cover of his book in 2011/2012).
- The soundtrack of Snoke is very similar to the soundtrack of Darth Plagueis from the opera scene in Revenge of the Sith.
- Someone said that Snoke was referred to as wise (I don't remember it though).
- It kind of makes sense, actually.
- It will make happy the EU fanboys/fangirls
- It will bring a lot of pressure in the inevitable Rey/Luke - Snoke clash. 'I trained Palpatine, I controlled Emperor' saying to Luke would make Luke and Rey look more hopeless than 'The Dark Side is strong with me'.

[TheRevanchist]

As for Palpatine vs Plagueis. It is noteworthy that Palpatine only dared kill him in his sleep. And in the films he spoke of Plagueis in almost reverant tones, which is noteworthy, given how he despises almost everyone else.  Certainly, according to Sidious himself, Plagueis was able to do things with the Force that Sidious himself could never achieve.

Because, Palps was a great strategist and played it very safe. Similarly, despite him being stronger than Yoda, the help was already coming to him.

Plagueis - from EU - was the ultimate scholar, but hardly a warrior. My impression there was that the only reason why Palps didn't kill him before was because Plagueis had a deep knowledge on the Force (far more than Palps) and was extremely influential (by being the richest person in the galaxy). Palps was the stronger one though.

By doing things with the Force than Sidious cannot achieve, I agree. Plagueis managed not only to not age, but actually to get younger, and even - accidentally - to create life with the Force. On destructive powers though, Palps is the strongest of them all (Jedi or Sith).

[dooog]

....And then Plagueis was killed in his sleep by Palpatine. Yeah, I doubt Snoke is Plagueis.

Not at all. Palps killed him in his sleep (and drunk), because Palps played it always safe, but I think that by that time, Palps was already stronger than Plagueis.
Plagueis however was able to defeat death which is a big bonus. 

The Snoke = Plagueis theory has been along for some time now. It actually makes a lot of sense if Plagueis 'faked' his own death. He knew the prophecy of the chosen one and with Anakin appearing - and with Palps becoming stronger - he might have thought it is a good idea to go underground for some time, until both of them are dead.

Btw, the book isn't canon anymore but it is the best book in Star Wars EU after Heir to the Empire, IMO.

Well, that was Palpatine's story. But Plagueis was said to have conquered death itself. Palpatine still mused on the irony that Plagueis was able to save others from death, but not himself. Well, what if he was able to save himself, and then chose to look on from the shadows while Palpatine thought he was the one in control instead. Especially if Plagueis liked what Palpatine was doing with the Empire, and knowing that as  Muun he would long outlive the human Darth Sidious.

 

It seems pretty clear by now that Abrams has mixed and matches stuff from the exanded books as he sees fit. The fact that Han Solo calls his son Ben, when it was in fact Luke's son who was named Ben in the books, tells us as much.

It would be easy for Abrams to use a slightly revised version of Plagueis's history as the basis for his new villain.

As for Palpatine vs Plagueis. It is noteworthy that Palpatine only dared kill him in his sleep. Andin the films he spoke of Plagueis in almost reverant tones, which is noteworthy, given how he despises almost everyone else.

Certainly, according to Sidious himself, Plagueis was able to do things with the Force that Sidious himself could never achieve.

It could easily turn out that Snoke indeed = Plagueis. This is Star Wars it will end up being Sith vs Jedi and Plagueis is the only movie Sith we haven't yet seen.

Plaugeis could manipulate life and death so him surviving or even foreseeing Sidious' betrayal is an easy work around. He also had a large scar didn't he? Then there's also the mystery behind Anakin's immaculate conception, assuming Mrs Skywalker wasn't fibbing... if Plagueis could manipulate life maybe they're building towards him being the puppeteer all along

[ab aeterno]

 

It could easily turn out that Snoke indeed = Plagueis. This is Star Wars it will end up being Sith vs Jedi and Plagueis is the only movie Sith we haven't yet seen.

Plaugeis could manipulate life and death so him surviving or even foreseeing Sidious' betrayal is an easy work around. He also had a large scar didn't he? Then there's also the mystery behind Anakin's immaculate conception, assuming Mrs Skywalker wasn't fibbing... if Plagueis could manipulate life maybe they're building towards him being the puppeteer all along

Yeah, I do tend to look at Palpatine's story with a "at least, that's what you think." view. It all seems too easy, and makes Plagueis seem too minor.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Yep, I was quite surprised when he called him Ben (with Ren being basically Jacen Solo). JJ has mixed things - which actually works. Rey is dead cert to be Luke's daughter, but her characterization is similar to Jaina Solo. Basically, he merged Jacen, Jaina and Ben into Rey and Kylo Ren.
It is clear to me that Snoke is inspired from Plagueis. As you say, they might decide for this to not be the case, but it would be better if he is. The Emperor's Old Master would look more threatening than a random powerful Force User.

There are some things which really cannot be coincidence:

- Snoke looks very similar to Darth Plagues (from the cover of his book in 2011/2012).
- The soundtrack of Snoke is very similar to the soundtrack of Darth Plagueis from the opera scene in Revenge of the Sith.
- Someone said that Snoke was referred to as wise (I don't remember it though).
- It kind of makes sense, actually.
- It will make happy the EU fanboys/fangirls
- It will bring a lot of pressure in the inevitable Rey/Luke - Snoke clash. 'I trained Palpatine, I controlled Emperor' saying to Luke would make Luke and Rey look more hopeless than 'The Dark Side is strong with me'.

Something else I came across, which could bring EVERYTHING full circle, is that Plagueis was said to be able to manipulate the midichlorians themselves, which was how he could supposedly cheat death. And that this could be a veiled reference to him being able to create life through midichlorian manipulation. And this links very nicely with Anakin's "virgin birth", having had no father as far as his mother knew.

Therefore, it is not a stretch to put two and two together to suggest that the Sith Lord who could create life through the Force itself, created Anakin Skywalker to fulfill the ancient prophecy. Thus, Plagueis would be the originator of the entire Skywalker clan. Which would tie him much more deeply to the fate of Luke Skywalker, and would make their eventual controntation much more meaningful.

It would essentially tie the entire franchise together, and bring it all to a fitting climax.

[TheRevanchist]

 

It could easily turn out that Snoke indeed = Plagueis. This is Star Wars it will end up being Sith vs Jedi and Plagueis is the only movie Sith we haven't yet seen.

Plaugeis could manipulate life and death so him surviving or even foreseeing Sidious' betrayal is an easy work around. He also had a large scar didn't he? Then there's also the mystery behind Anakin's immaculate conception, assuming Mrs Skywalker wasn't fibbing... if Plagueis could manipulate life maybe they're building towards him being the puppeteer all along

Yep, he had a large scar. Andy Serkis pretty much mentioned before that he suffered in the past.

From the book of him (which is probably the EU book on which Lucas worked most closely), Anakin was created more as a mechanism of the Force, when Plagueis managed to directly manipulate the Force, including life and death. Basically, he was on the road of becoming an all powerful God, and so the Force created 'the chosen one' as defense. That combined with Palps not needing him anymore (having already started the creation of the Clone Army and having already become Supreme Chancellor) was the end of him.

Or not...

[Red Tiger]

Look, yes he shares similarities with Plagueis and yes it could be true, but dont you guys think they're taking enough from the previous material?

[Free Northman Reborn]

Look, yes he shares similarities with Plagueis and yes it could be true, but dont you guys think they're taking enough from the previous material?

 

What do you mean? This is a sequeal to the original series, so they should be taking EVERYTHING from the previous material.

[TheRevanchist]

Something else I came across, which could bring EVERYTHING full circle, is that Plagueis was said to be able to manipulate the midichlorians themselves, which was how he could supposedly cheat death. And that this could be a veiled reference to him being able to create life through midichlorian manipulation. And this links very nicely with Anakin's "virgin birth", having had no father as far as his mother knew.

Therefore, it is not a stretch to put two and two together to suggest that the Sith Lord who could create life through the Force itself, created Anakin Skywalker to fulfill the ancient prophecy. Thus, Plagueis would be the originator of the entire Skywalker clan. Which would tie him much more deeply to the fate of Luke Skywalker, and would make their eventual controntation much more meaningful.

It would essentially tie the entire franchise together, and bring it all to a fitting climax.

Screw the midichlorians. Actually, the book did a good job by making the Force look more mysterious (like in OT), rather than scientific (like in PT). In the book, it was established that midichlorians don't create the Force, but they are attracted to organisms who are strong in the force. So, if a person has a lot of midichlorians, it means that he is strong in the force, because otherwise midichlorians wouldn't be attracted to him.

It is safe to say that the midichlorians are having a pain death, and won't be on this trilogy. Which is kind of good.

Regardless of that, Plagueis is a bit like Anakin's father. Be it if the Force created him as a defense mechanism, or if they differ it slightly by saying that he was created by Plagueis directly. If Plagueis didn't start those experiments, then there wouldn't be an Anakin.

Snoke being Plagueis, makes him Luke's metaphysical grandfa. So, I am in team Snoke = Plagueis.