Star Wars Episode VII THE SPOILERS AWAKEN

[Corvinus85]

I thought it was funny how Kylo can take a hit from Chewie's blaster (that they seemed to stress earlier in the film was quite powerful) and still be able to walk and fight. Meanwile an armored stormtrooper gets hit and they're done. Why do they even wear the armor? It's been established it can't even protect them from Ewok thrown rocks.

It's his hatred/strength in the Force people. If Anakin, dismembered and burned to a crisp, can survive long enough to get help, if Darth Maul can survive being sliced in half and thrown down a shaft (it's in the Clone Wars, so it's canon), then Kylo can take a hit from Chewie's bowcaster and still function.

[Joe Pesci]

It's his hatred/strength in the Force people. If Anakin, dismembered and burned to a crisp, can survive long enough to get help, if Darth Maul can survive being sliced in half and thrown down a shaft (it's in the Clone Wars, so it's canon), then Kylo can take a hit from Chewie's bowcaster and still function.

I just figured that he was also wearing some type of armor underneath his robes that was a higher quality than stormtrooper armor, which would be fitting considering his standing in the First Order.

[Corvinus85]

I'm glad this thread is not full yet. At the pace this is going, I thought that I would have to start writing in the next thread. 

But I'm too overwhelmed, in a good way, but also kinda bummed by the amount of nitpicking I've already read. Of course, it was only to be expected. 

But I went in that movie excited, and came out thrilled. I absolutely loved it, and though I recognize that there are flaws, JJ's strengths and weaknesses as director and writer were both present, the good heavily outweighs the bad.

This is the Star Wars movie I was hoping for, it ranks at pretty much the same level with the OT, and I'll leave it at that for now. Repeated viewings are a must.

[Corvinus85]

I'm glad this thread is not full yet. At the pace this is going, I thought that I would have to start writing in the next thread. 

But I'm too overwhelmed, in a good way, but also kinda bummed by the amount of nitpicking I've already read. Of course, it was only to be expected. 

But I went in that movie excited, and came out thrilled. I absolutely loved it, and though I recognize that there are flaws, JJ's strengths and weaknesses as director and writer were both present, the good heavily outweighs the bad.

This is the Star Wars movie I was hoping for, it ranks at pretty much the same level with the OT, and I'll leave it at that for now. Repeated viewings are a must.

[RumHam]

Internet's favorite theory for now is Luke was shaping things indirectly. This, frankly, seems more like wanting to fulfill the desire of having Luke play a bigger part in the movie. 

I would just be happy to learn that Luke was doing something. It's starting to seem like the Jedi's default "in case of emergency" plan is to hide and wait. Hopefully future movies will explain what he was waiting for, and why he wasn't directly helping the resistance. 

It's his hatred/strength in the Force people. If Anakin, dismembered and burned to a crisp, can survive long enough to get help, if Darth Maul can survive being sliced in half and thrown down a shaft (it's in the Clone Wars, so it's canon), then Kylo can take a hit from Chewie's bowcaster and still function.

Huh. I never knew that about Maul. Still I don't care for your line of reasoning. You're basically suggesting that once one thing in a franchise breaks suspension of disbelief, then anything else is fair game. If they'd established somewhere in any of the seven movies that the dark side could allow you to suppress pain or whatever, then that would be another story. (and I dunno, maybe they did on one of the TV shows or comics.) 

[RumHam]

But I'm too overwhelmed, in a good way, but also kinda bummed by the amount of nitpicking I've already read. Of course, it was only to be expected. 

But I went in that movie excited, and came out thrilled. I absolutely loved it, and though I recognize that there are flaws, JJ's strengths and weaknesses as director and writer were both present, the good heavily outweighs the bad.

This is the Star Wars movie I was hoping for, it ranks at pretty much the same level with the OT, and I'll leave it at that for now. Repeated viewings are a must.

I wanna make clear that despite my nitpicking, I agree wholeheartedly with your last two sentences. 

 

[Corvinus85]

I would just be happy to learn that Luke was doing something. It's starting to seem like the Jedi's default "in case of emergency" plan is to hide and wait. Hopefully future movies will explain what he was waiting for, and why he wasn't directly helping the resistance. 

Huh. I never knew that about Maul. Still I don't care for your line of reasoning. You're basically suggesting that once one thing in a franchise breaks suspension of disbelief, then anything else is fair game. If they'd established somewhere in any of the seven movies that the dark side could allow you to suppress pain or whatever, then that would be another story. (and I dunno, maybe they did on one of the TV shows or comics.) 

1) It's a sound line of reasoning.

2) I gave you two examples, not one.

3) It's not just implied, it's clear from the scene in the woods. We see him struggle, we see him hit himself in his wound, as a way to fight off the pain. It's clear that he is clinging to the dark side as much as he can to keep going.

[Joe Pesci]

Huh. I never knew that about Maul. Still I don't care for your line of reasoning. You're basically suggesting that once one thing in a franchise breaks suspension of disbelief, then anything else is fair game. If they'd established somewhere in any of the seven movies that the dark side could allow you to suppress pain or whatever, then that would be another story. (and I dunno, maybe they did on one of the TV shows or comics.) 

I'd suggest Palps taking all of that Force lightning in ROTS and getting up like nothing happened afterwards as another possible example. Also, maybe the distance that Chewie was from Ren weakened the power of the shot from the bowcaster? All of the big spots of it doing damage were pretty close targets.

[RumHam]

1) It's a sound line of reasoning.

 

I strongly disagree. But whatever. 

2) I gave you two examples, not one.

 Right, but isn't the idea the same regardless of how many unrealistic things have to happen before it becomes acceptable? I really wasn't trying to misrepresent your argument. 

3) It's not just implied, it's clear from the scene in the woods. We see him struggle, we see him hit himself in his wound, as a way to fight off the pain. It's clear that he is clinging to the dark side as much as he can to keep going.

What's clear to you isn't necessarily clear to me. I didn't connect his chest thumping to any sort of dark side enhanced pain resistance. Again if this had been established beforehand that'd be one thing. I don't think you need special force powers to not be killed by a blaster, Leia was hit by one in Return of the Jedi, wasn't she? Their destructive power just seems to vary as the plot requires. 

[RumHam]

I'd suggest Palps taking all of that Force lightning in ROTS and getting up like nothing happened afterwards as another possible example. Also, maybe the distance that Chewie was from Ren weakened the power of the shot from the bowcaster? All of the big spots of it doing damage were pretty close targets.

I always thought force lightning was the worst possibly weapon. Look how long Luke took it without any permanent damage in Return of the Jedi. It's like the emperor studied for years to master a power less effective than a blaster. 

[felice]

But the star killer wasn't going to be used on the resistance. The only reason it was was so that they could stop the resistance from finding Skywalker.

Was that stated in the film? It doesn't make much sense; the Resistance is the First Order's primary enemy, so why not wipe them out once they have the capability?

And how would r2 know where to go? He doesn't have the location of the rebel base. Only leia has that. If leia dies the rebels are fucked.

I'm sure Obi-wan could figure out some way to make contact with the rebels. Biggs managed it without directions from Leia!

Han and chewie and the Falcon don't need to show up at all actually. If rey and Finn don't get caught by han, they go right to the rebel base. Bb8 is known and poe survived. If anything han screws things up more. The first order wouldn't know where they were heading, they wouldn't know the base, rey would be able to wake up r2 and they'd be able to find luke without the b order being any wiser.

But without Han, they've got no way to get to the surface of the Starkiller; and without Rey to rescue, Finn doesn't have the motivation to go there and get the shields down; and Kylo doesn't get injured and there's no lightsaber to fight him with. It's not at all clear the First Order don't know where the Resistance is based anyway, and even if they don't, they can use the threat of planetary destruction to dominate the galaxy. Yes, the Resistance would probably get to Luke somewhat sooner, but as yet it's not obviously exactly how that will help.

[Kalbear]

Han uses a basic trick to get to the surface. They don't need him for that specifically.

The movie makes it clear that they followed a scout ship heading from the star killer to the resistance base.

And yes, snoke specifically says to blow up the resistance to stop them from getting to Skywalker. That is the primary thing about the whole story. It's all about Skywalker. The star killer really isn't that big a deal. Nor is the resistance or the Republic. Not to snoke anyway.

[Ser Creighton]

I always thought force lightning was the worst possibly weapon. Look how long Luke took it without any permanent damage in Return of the Jedi. It's like the emperor studied for years to master a power less effective than a blaster. 

Hey Ham, I don't know if any of this will help but I thought I would throw my two cents in. I only just saw the movie and I am still soaking it in, but I have some thoughts that are guesses and some stuff I know. 1. It is not a Dark side thing to make pain go away they embrace it actually, but the force sensitive have been known to overcome pain. Luke in Empire has his hand cut off, suffers a sever emotional shock and falls half a mile, he is still capable of reaching out to Leia and focusing past the pain. I also read Ren punching himself in his side as him basically trying to fight past the pain. For the sake of the movie and the upcoming fight he has to be distracted and hurt in order for anyone one to survive.

Is Luke manipulating things? I think to an extent he is but that will have to wait for the next movie.  Luke always could see things and reach out, hell he communicated with the dead. But in Empire when untrained he managed to call his fathers Lightsaber and that was after receiving a cracked skull, pain he also fought through. R2 does not trigger till Han is confirmed dead, they had had the fragment for some time.  

The Starkiller base appears to be a double homage, to extended universe a friend of mine mentioned the galaxy gun, I don't know what that is but I guess it is some giant gun that could shoot across the galaxy and it is also a homage to the star forge from KOTOR and you can find a cut scene from the game of the Star Forge soaking up a sun in an almost identical fashion. The planet Luke is on also appears to be a homage to the final planet in KOTOR which is actually a rather powerful Dark force nexus, much as Yoda hid near a Dark Force Nexus. So I was thinking the Star killer base was hinting at Jedi artifacts, or force related artifacts that could play a major role in the future.

From what I can tell there seems to be ample reasons for Luke to go into hiding, he failed his students and of course his nephew or at least can feel that way. Or he knows something really, really bad is coming and it easily took his nephew and destroyed his new order. I can't imagine Ren would send him into hiding.

Rey very much seems to be a Skywalker, which is the most common theory. From early in the movie we find out that Lor (Bloodraven) is on the same world as Rey, and he knows Leia, he has been entrusted with the final part of Luke's map. Poe is sent to him to retrieve this map in the hopes of finding Luke. Though that appears to be fruitless as it is in uncharted space on the edge of the galactic rim again similar to KOTOR and finding the hidden location on the map. He has to be someone really important for the map to be entrusted with him. Later we find out that Rey was also entrusted with him as a child.  It is also told to Rey that Anakin and Luke's old Lightsaber belongs to her. Ray get's by on a lot of instinct but for a force sensitive that includes their precognitive intuition, they can see the future and the past and the present and Luke was guided at times by it as well. If young Luke can reach out to Leia I am guessing experienced Luke could easily have been watching Rey the way Yoda watched him, and the force would reach out to her much as it did with Luke. 

Personally I don't think the movie was perfect but I thought it was very enjoyable, the science is obviously off, but the science was always off. I thought the way that Ben and Anakin were placed in a juxtaposition that was the most interesting aspect of his character. Ren even has his haircut the same, though Anakin was a blonde and his was black. Ben was raised by his family and Anakin lost his. And that moment with Han above the reactor core should remind most of when Vader killed the Emperor who was the closest thing Vader had to a father by throwing him into a reactor, he betrayed the Emperor and killed him. Here Ben betrays his father by stabbing him and throwing him into a reactor core. Of course one killed the dark and one killed the light. Vader never sought to become a Sith it happened do to years and years of manipulation, Ben went skipping down that path fully aware of what he was doing, even desperate for it.

As some have said I expect to find out while strong with the force Ben/Ren Wannabe still took the short bus to Jedi school.

As for the science I am totally ok with the fantasy science because it has always been fantasy science and none of it actually makes sense. Hell Lucas kept calling faster than light travel Light speed in the first movie. Nothing really to complain about there, might as well start complaining about the force and lightsabers and energy weapons, and Death Stars and pretty much all the science, I let the in atmosphere hyperspace jump slide, mostly because we can't actually prove it can or can't be done and well it's Han getting a final moment.  As for some of the holes most of them appear to be questions set up for one of the sequels to answer, I let the Star base slide because it appeared to be a nod to some extended universe stuff and was not really that important. I was also wondering what happened to the rebel fleet which is once again a few squadrons of X-Wings, though outside of Star Killer base we only see I think one Star Destroyer. The guy I saw the movie with though mentioned that in New Hope we don't see much of the rebel or imperial fleet and it builds up to the final climax of that trilogy which this may also be doing, he also suggested this may be something more tied to Jedi and Sith artifacts than giant wars, it remains to be scene at this point.  All in all I have some questions that the movie created and I think they did it on purpose, I think they dropped plenty of clues. I thought the pacing was to fast, I liked the new characters a lot more than I thought I would which was my surprise and the story was incomplete though it is clearly there to set up the next film.  I thought Ben/Ren was actually the best, not because he was anything like who he aspired to be but because he was a total D-Bag and that is what he is suppose to be. I just hope Luke and Leia hid Leia and Han's second child there because dear lord the universe can not lose the Skywalkers and the Solo's, and considering she seemed a very clear mix of both I got my fingers crossed. H+L cannot, must not equal just Ben/Ren Wannabe the intergalactic D-Bag, they have to have light side to the Dark side, for the love of god Han had to to spend his last days teaching his daughter about the Falcon and passing it on to her. They even sort of hint he knows when he is asked who the girl is and the camera cuts away from him before he can answer. Wannabe can't seem to realize that Vader had to wear the mask, it was not a fashion statement, that guy is such the D-Bag, hmmm even though the god damn general of the rebels knows who I am I need to change my name, something totally different, hmmm Ben to Ren, I changed a whole letter I am so smart. His first name is probably Mylo and that is why he is rebelling... In his thirties...And worships a guy who he thinks he is going to complete his destiny for, even though his destiny was to defeat the Sith, which he actually manages to do.

Can't wait for his backstory, probably had a bird with a broken wing who couldn't fly very well. Problem is the bird was healthy, he was just a Stannis Fan boy, read that part of the story found a bird and broke it's wing to emulate him. After he gets done getting owned in Star Wars he plans to travel to Westeros and get his ass kicked again.

 

[Black Wolf Smith]

That's pretty much what I chose to believe the whole time.

Anyways, it was good but I wasn't blown away like I wanted to be.  I didn't mind most of the nitpicks I've read here or the fact that it was incredibly similar to ANH, but it just seemed to be missing something. Not having a Vader-type bad guy hurts and I'm not too impressed with Kylo Ren, or Driver, like most seem to be. I definitely have to watch it again because my expectations were obviously ridiculous, even know I tried to fight it.

From my PoV, you said that backwards.

As much as people bitch, moan, and belittle SW:tPM, it had the Wow. I went to see tPM midnight show, and then again the next morning, and loved it. It was only later that Jar Jar, an hour of Pod, and all the other little stuff began to make it hard to watch.

When a I saw SW:tFA, I liked it, it really is a SW movie, but it seemed to be missing the "Wow factor". When I started thinking about each scene, I realized, it is a blatant rip off of SW:ANH. Yes there are a few homages to it, but most of the scene (and all of the major scene) were basically a reworking of ANH.

What is worse, is that I didn't expect it, but should have. It is were JJ  seemed to be headed w/ Star Trek, before handing it off.

 

 

[alguien]

Speaking of Hux, Linda noted that all the First Order seemed quite young compared to their counterparts in the OT. Assuming that is deliberate, it's another sign of the First Order being sort of a cult formed in emulation of the Empire and not actually a direct splinter of it. "Supreme Leader" Snoke (terrible name, I agree) may have co-opted the accoutrements of the Empire to draw in people... and may also have built up his forces by indoctrinating children rather than recruiting adults.

I quite liked the bit of exposition where they talked about Finn's conditioning and psychological profile. Made a nice bit of sense to me. 

[alguien]

Ford calling ''Ben'' was one of my favourite scenes in the movie. 

Mine as well. Excellent pathos there. And while it was a bit of a parallel to Obi-wan's death, there was enough of a difference there (a father reaching out to his lost son rather than the master/student/brother betrayal thing Obi-wan and Anakin had going) that made it really work for me. I LOVED how Han's last move was to cup his son's face. Great stuff. 

PS. Also loved how Chewie went beserk and killed the shit out of everyone afterward. 

[alguien]

So from some cursory research it seems highly likely that Snoke is in fact Darth Plagueis, Palpatine's old master.

It's a good theory. I definitely got a Wizard of Oz vibe going from the character. At first, I was like who is this Sith Emperor who is so huge and giant--but when I saw it was a hologram, I wondered what he was hiding. 

[alguien]

I liked the fight between Rey and Ben Solo. (cousin fight!) I didn't even mind the fight with Ben and Finn. Ben was wounded by Chewie, his old babysitter, and clearly still decimated by killing his father. At first, he thought he could toy with Finn, but when Finn got a glancing swipe on his shoulder, he finished it quickly. 

Still, Ben was wounded, tired, and distracted when Rey Force-grabbed the lightsaber (great moment!). He was still winning until he made his offer to teach Rey. 

Then, at the climax of the duel, Rey clearly remembers Maz Kanata's words and "let's the Force in", allowing her to have her own hitting-the-exhaust-port moment, and she beats back Ben. 

Both were novices, from what I could see, and it worked well. Hopefully, there's a redemptive rematch in their future!

 

 

[HexMachina]

1) It's a sound line of reasoning.

2) I gave you two examples, not one.

3) It's not just implied, it's clear from the scene in the woods. We see him struggle, we see him hit himself in his wound, as a way to fight off the pain. It's clear that he is clinging to the dark side as much as he can to keep going.

About 3. I thought that was more about Ren's self loathing. He wanted to punish himself (iirc it showed his blood spattering the snow every time he did it?) 

[ab aeterno]

And yes, snoke specifically says to blow up the resistance to stop them from getting to Skywalker. That is the primary thing about the whole story. It's all about Skywalker. The star killer really isn't that big a deal. Nor is the resistance or the Republic. Not to snoke anyway.

As I mentioned earlier, this is why the Starkiller plot line didn't bother me too much. Snoke clearly doesn't care about it, and it isn't a major part of his plans. It's important to his military, and they see it as the source of their power/prestige, but Snoke basically just shrugs when it gets destroyed and is clearly only concerned about Luke.