Star Wars Episode VII THE SPOILERS AWAKEN

[TheRevanchist]

eta: meant to ask if anyone here has read the canon novelisation. I am curious as to whether it fleshes out some of the plot points that the film skims over

Staring it tomorrow, so I should be able to answer that in a couple of days. But I heard - from SW forums - that it gives some important details.

[polishgenius]

ETA: I think I've seen a couple of people in this thread say the prequels are better in some respects.  No.

I think the one thing the prequels did manage to do, though in an incoherent way, was have plenty of things that were 'wow look at the shiny cool stuff' and a couple of people alluded to it earlier, I think this did lack that... I dunno if I'd call it 'wow factor', coz the prequels weren't 'wow', but they had some cool shit in amongst the Jar-Jars and this (you know, Maul and his lightsaber, Naboo's taste in spaceships, Yoda drawing his 'saber with the force, Vader's first breath), for me, didn't quite have much of that.

 

Well that is the point though, if so many people can suspend disbelief with a franchise like F&F which is actually largely based in the real world but tends to be very over the top, then suspension of disbelief for Star Wars which fully takes place in a different reality with space magic and fake science should not be a problem yet some people seem to struggle with some of those ideas. Not saying you, but some.

I'm quite happy both nitpicking and enjoying both, but I think (for me) the big problem for suspension of disbelief is usually internal coherence. There's a few issues that crop up but the F&F films are surprisingly good at remaining consistent within their own rules and canon, whereas SW has a history of issues with this.

 

Like, don't get me wrong; I really like this film. Nitpicking doesn't mean we don't.

[alguien]

More generally though, I think the implication for Episode VIII is that either the Republic has to entirely capitulate or there's going to be open warfare.

I think the Republic is funding the Resistance to avoid open warfare. Numbers-wise, from everything that's now "official" canon, the Republic has an overwhelming advantage, but their militaries are greatly dispersed. After the last remnant of the Empire suffered a huge defeat at Jakku, they signed a peace agreement with the Republic. Of course, the First Order is violating that treaty covertly, and the Resistance is the Republic's way of countering it--also covertly.

[Marcus Agrippa]

The yoda vs dooku fight was better then the snow storm fight. Overall I am not overly convinced that the whole Starkiller plot was just typical corporate writing. I really didn't like it. It still holds an 8/10- but that number could change depending on how the next two go. I still don't like finns line- thought I believe the actor did very well. I hope we get more of fin. I believe the biggest winner wasn't disney here, it was daisy ridley.

[Ser Creighton]

I think the one thing the prequels did manage to do, though in an incoherent way, was have plenty of things that were 'wow look at the shiny cool stuff' and a couple of people alluded to it earlier, I think this did lack that... I dunno if I'd call it 'wow factor', coz the prequels weren't 'wow', but they had some cool shit in amongst the Jar-Jars and this (you know, Maul and his lightsaber, Naboo's taste in spaceships, Yoda drawing his 'saber with the force, Vader's first breath), for me, didn't quite have much of that.

 

I'm quite happy both nitpicking and enjoying both, but I think (for me) the big problem for suspension of disbelief is usually internal coherence. There's a few issues that crop up but the F&F films are surprisingly good at remaining consistent within their own rules and canon, whereas SW has a history of issues with this.

I would actually need examples to really understand what you are getting with changing rules, I don't personally know the rules I have not scene a list of them. Plus in a lot of cases rules are made to be broken, or doing something for the first time does not mean you broke a rule you may just be doing something new. If you mean like only two Sith, in the movies that has held true, but that is something can be broken by anyone. Even in canon a person does not need to be that rigid with in world practices just like they are not in our world. If it's like some of the stuff that came out of Yoda's mouth in the prequels, it's a religion and open to interpretation just like we see in our world, did he change his mind or belief it would seem on some things. Luke was to old to begin the training yet train he did. So I guess it depends, I have not experienced any rigid science in the movies so I am not sure what really matters there. In F&F the rules in the first movie were very grounded in reality, later not so much. So the rules changed and each movie tries to go more over the top then the last with the last 3 constantly asking you to suspend disbelief a little further each time. Maybe Riddick shows up in the next one as Vins twin and we find out Toretto is actually the twin of a cosmic warlord. Fast 1 was it's own thing and the later movies became XXX. It's not really the same at all, I actually like the first one, I like XXX as well, I just never got into XXX Furious which is really what it became. They are basically a super secret government task force who take on super terrorists now.

[ab aeterno]

I think the Republic is funding the Resistance to avoid open warfare. Numbers-wise, from everything that's now "official" canon, the Republic has an overwhelming advantage, but their militaries are greatly dispersed. After the last remnant of the Empire suffered a huge defeat at Jakku, they signed a peace agreement with the Republic. Of course, the First Order is violating that treaty covertly, and the Resistance is the Republic's way of countering it--also covertly.

I agree that's why they're funding the Resistance, but I'm not sure how covertly you can blow up a planet and four moons.  You can't really cover it up, either. So either they'd have to declare war, (on all or part of the First Order,) or essentially capitulate - you can't sweep that kind of destruction under the rug as a minor incident, though I suppose they could blame it on a supernova.

The yoda vs dooku fight was better then the snow storm fight. Overall I am not overly convinced that the whole Starkiller plot was just typical corporate writing. I really didn't like it. It still holds an 8/10- but that number could change depending on how the next two go. I still don't like finns line- thought I believe the actor did very well. I hope we get more of fin. I believe the biggest winner wasn't disney here, it was daisy ridley.

Can't say that I agree. The snow storm fight is in my top few of the series, comfortably. 

[HexMachina]

The yoda vs dooku fight was better then the snow storm fight. Overall I am not overly convinced that the whole Starkiller plot was just typical corporate writing. I really didn't like it. It still holds an 8/10- but that number could change depending on how the next two go. I still don't like finns line- thought I believe the actor did very well. I hope we get more of fin. I believe the biggest winner wasn't disney here, it was daisy ridley.

Completely disagree. Dooku/Yoda was just another sequence of flashiness twirls and somersaults that was impractical in every way and lacked any emotional impact at all

[Marcus Agrippa]

I agree that's why they're funding the Resistance, but I'm not sure how covertly you can blow up a planet and four moons.  You can't really cover it up, either. So either they'd have to declare war, (on all or part of the First Order,) or essentially capitulate - you can't sweep that kind of destruction under the rug as a minor incident, though I suppose they could blame it on a supernova.

Can't say that I agree. The snow storm fight is in my top few of the series, comfortably. 

Fair statement, we all have our picks. AOTC and the Phantom menace had the best saber fights in my opinion. I didn't dislike the snow storm fiht. I just find it- well questionable. Ben Solo clearly had some training from luke with a lightsaber. Granted he was wounded from chewie but he should have had better form. 

[Arthmail]

Yea, Yoda vs Dooku was ridiculous. Yoda bouncing around like a spastic CGI doll was, at the moment, cool, but upon reflection it really veered away from the core of the movies and I liked it for about 5 minutes. The entire prequels did that of course, but Yoda's strength was not in strength of arms, and it just felt cheap and useless. The prequels were terrible, with Revenge being the best of a bad lot.

The snow storm fight was really well done. The lightsaber misses cutting trees down, the atmosphere. Everything was really good.

 

Also, as for Chewie not hugging Leia, I think he was inconsolable for a time. And she wanted to comfort her niece, knowing that Chewbacca is like a hundred and some years old and can hold out on a hug until she has a chance to give him one.

[Arthmail]

Ben might have had training from Luke with a lighstaber, but honestly, how often would he get to practice? On top of that, we just watched Chewies bowcaster blow storm troopers off their feet for most of the movie. He took the shot and fell to his knee instead of just dying. So I would say he was pretty badly injured.

[polishgenius]

I would actually need examples to really understand what you are getting with changing rules, I don't personally know the rules I have not scene a list of them. Plus in a lot of cases rules are made to be broken, or doing something for the first time does not mean you broke a rule you may just be doing something new. If you mean like only two Sith, in the movies that has held true, but that is something can be broken by anyone.

No, I mean rules in the meta sense, not within the story. In this film the biggest for me is that we know it's a full sized universe with, yes, ftl travel but the same rules of distance etc as ours. So the visuals and operation of the Big Death Star firing didn't work well for me, with being able to see it from planets that are nowhere near or a bolt described as travelling at hyperspace speeds seen moving relatively slowly through real space. Similarly, I mentioned this before, travel was way too easy and contradicted earlier entries in the series where travelling took time.

Similarly, a few people have mentioned that they think Kylo Ren lost too easily at the end- I think there's plausible explanations for this but you can see where the argument comes from that from prior showings a force-trained user should not be having that much trouble with untrained, and in one case unwoken if he has it at all, users of the Force.

You're right that the real-world setting means it's easier for F&F to fall foul of this sort of shit because you assume it goes, to a certain extent, by real-world rules unless established otherwise and so streetracing in major cities without getting arrested is fine because that's a feature of the series (albeit it gets more casually easy to get away as the series goes) but the twenty-mile runway in the sixth one gets talked about because, just, come on now guys. But the whole F&F series has been surprisingly good at maintaining its structure while building up to ever more ridiculous things, so there's not as much to pick at as it might seem at first glance.

[HexMachina]

He also wasn't fighting to kill when he fought Rey (at least up until her lightbulb moment)

[Marcus Agrippa]

Completely disagree. Dooku/Yoda was just another sequence of flashiness twirls and somersaults that was impractical in every way and lacked any emotional impact at all

That's the way I saw yoda fighting however. From perspective wise- he could never fight like vader, luke, or the rest. He only had two styles available to him- none of them would have fit with the character.  It was the only way Yoda was ever going to be able to fight.  I agree that lucas should have driven the point in between master and apprentice better. AOTC was the worst film from an emotional standpoint.

[ab aeterno]

No, I mean rules in the meta sense, not within the story. In this film the biggest for me is that we know it's a full sized universe with, yes, ftl travel but the same rules of distance etc as ours. So the visuals and operation of the Big Death Star firing didn't work well for me, with being able to see it from planets that are nowhere near or a bolt described as travelling at hyperspace speeds seen moving relatively slowly through real space. Similarly, I mentioned this before, travel was way too easy and contradicted earlier entries in the series where travelling took time.
 

I largely put this down to film editing, rather than travelling taking less time. As for seeing it from the planets, I suppose this thing is firing a sun at people, so the energy looking like a shooting star or meteorite didn't seem too far-fetched. It's difficult to comment on the relative distances though, from what we're told in the movie. 

Similarly, a few people have mentioned that they think Kylo Ren lost too easily at the end- I think there's plausible explanations for this but you can see where the argument comes from that from prior showings a force-trained user should not be having that much trouble with untrained, and in one case unwoken if he has it at all, users of the Force.
 

Arguably Luke vs Vader in ESB provides the counter-argument to this. Luke, with little to no training, holds his own for quite some time with the most powerful lightsaber wielder in the galaxy. Ren by contrast is an insecure showoff who constantly feels the need to assert his power over everyone through immature displays of force, and is also injured, as has been mentioned.

[TheRevanchist]

Ben might have had training from Luke with a lighstaber, but honestly, how often would he get to practice? On top of that, we just watched Chewies bowcaster blow storm troopers off their feet for most of the movie. He took the shot and fell to his knee instead of just dying. So I would say he was pretty badly injured.

I liked the fight. It showed that neither of them are that great at it.

I liked the choreographically fights in prequels though. Being incredibly fast and strong, it made sense for Jedi/Sith to fight that way. Similarly, if Luke faces Snoke, it should be that way.

I think that the worst fight in Star Wars is the original Kenobi vs Vader fight. Despite that both of them were supposed to be fantastic fighters, it looked like they were using the lightsaber for the first time in their life. 

[ab aeterno]

I think that the worst fight in Star Wars is the original Kenobi vs Vader fight. Despite that both of them were supposed to be fantastic fighters, it looked like they were using the lightsaber for the first time in their life. 

I think you could retcon it and say that they were being cautious and testing each other's strength - after all, the last time they fought, Obi-Wan won fairly decisively and Vader was horrible mutilated. In those circumstances, it makes sense for them to both be wary. 

Not saying that's what happened, just that you could rationalise it away like that.

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

I think the one thing the prequels did manage to do, though in an incoherent way, was have plenty of things that were 'wow look at the shiny cool stuff' and a couple of people alluded to it earlier, I think this did lack that... I dunno if I'd call it 'wow factor', coz the prequels weren't 'wow', but they had some cool shit in amongst the Jar-Jars and this (you know, Maul and his lightsaber, Naboo's taste in spaceships, Yoda drawing his 'saber with the force, Vader's first breath), for me, didn't quite have much of that.

I disagree. Rey pulling the lightsaber out of the snow as the Tatooine sunset theme played gave me goosebumps. And the shot of the TIE fighters  against the sunset was fantastic.

The yoda vs dooku fight was better then the snow storm fight.

 I couldn't disagree more.

[Marcus Agrippa]

Yea, Yoda vs Dooku was ridiculous. Yoda bouncing around like a spastic CGI doll was, at the moment, cool, but upon reflection it really veered away from the core of the movies and I liked it for about 5 minutes. The entire prequels did that of course, but Yoda's strength was not in strength of arms, and it just felt cheap and useless. The prequels were terrible, with Revenge being the best of a bad lot.

The snow storm fight was really well done. The lightsaber misses cutting trees down, the atmosphere. Everything was really good.

 

Also, as for Chewie not hugging Leia, I think he was inconsolable for a time. And she wanted to comfort her niece, knowing that Chewbacca is like a hundred and some years old and can hold out on a hug until she has a chance to give him one.

Lucas did the prequels poorly, I have stated that before. I don't think any of the prequels made me do anything but roll my eyes. Padme+Anakin is still the worst romance in the history of movies and the twilight series is a thing.  I mean I guess I was a kid when they came out- so nostagilia might be with me. If comparatively from an EU point of view- read the vong series. They had a lot of the flips during that particular series Star by Star is the one to read even if that's where the climax of the first part. 

[dooog]

I think that the worst fight in Star Wars is the original Kenobi vs Vader fight. Despite that both of them were supposed to be fantastic fighters, it looked like they were using the lightsaber for the first time in their life. 

I think you could retcon it and say that they were being cautious and testing each other's strength - after all, the last time they fought, Obi-Wan won fairly decisively and Vader was horrible mutilated. In those circumstances, it makes sense for them to both be wary. 

Not saying that's what happened, just that you could rationalise it away like that.

Definitely the worst choreographed lightsaber fight.

The only excuse I can think of is that Obi Wan knew he wasn't strong enough to beat Vader and the slow cumbersome dueling was down to him trying to prolong the fight so Luke , Leia etc had enough time to escape. The reality is probably that they were fighting with sticks with one being quite old and the other in a heavy suit

[Stannis Eats No Peaches]

I feel like if you think the Vader vs Ben fight is the worst because it was poorly choreographed, I think you're missing the point.